Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Oct 21, 2014 20:39:27 GMT -5
Now I'm a Cena fan but I think aside from arguments "He sells the most t-shirts, he's a draw", I do think history will judge Cena as quite a week 'company lead' draw. He's the biggest fish in the pond right now but as I argue in another thread this period feels like the mid 1990s to me. Bret could draw and most people in the crowd probably had a Bret Hart t-shirt or HBK one, but neither man (take your pick) was strong box office. With WWE's commercial arm and reach if someone given Cena's push over the years wasn't selling the most merch out of anyone then something would be seriously wrong.
But he's never really been a break-out star who's packed a mainstream punch. He's popular with the kids but that can either go one of two ways. There's 'popular with the kids' as in a Saturday morning cartoon series that they enjoy watching but after a while you never hear from it again ad there's 'popular with the kids' as in that Saturday morning cartoon series brings out a doll and parents trample others to death at Christmas trying to get their hands on one. I think Cena is very much in category 'A', he's popular with children but I'm not sure if there's an overwhelming enthusiasm there that translated into general interest in the product as happened with Hogan and the same demographic.
It's no coincidence that WWE are pushing nostalgia fairly heavily now either on TV or via the Network. I think Cena will be remembered as the leader of this generation of wrestling fans but ultimately history will judge this period and by association him as New Generation mrk II
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Oct 21, 2014 21:30:22 GMT -5
Well he's certainly going to be remembered as a guy that had his legacy questioned and talked about the most before he was done.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 21, 2014 21:41:43 GMT -5
I don't think he's much of a draw on his own. He's the first face of a corporate run, publicly traded WWE. Ever since Rock left, the WWE brand is the draw and that's how they want it. No one will ever be a draw again if they don't want them to be seen as bigger than WWE (which is stupid because it's a mutually beneficial correlation, especially with no competition. He's Mickey Mouse to WWE's Disney.
Sure kids will bug their parents to take them to an event if Cena is there but have there ever been "We want Cena!" chants? Maybe they happened in 04 but not since.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 21, 2014 21:47:57 GMT -5
A draw in the sense that he moved merch? Sure. A draw in the sense that he sold out houses on his own, had ratings and buyrates jumping through the roof like Hogan or Austin did? Not a chance.
However, since we're in an era where ratings, buyrates, and anything outside of merch sales mean nothing, I'd say he qualifies as a draw.
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FAR5222
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Post by FAR5222 on Oct 21, 2014 21:50:31 GMT -5
Without Cena's merch sales WWE would be like they were in 1995. Cena deserves everything handed to him for carrying this company on his back. He's stale as f*** but he's keeping them afloat. If he sells 5x's the merch than the second person that is an amazing thing.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 21, 2014 21:56:39 GMT -5
Without Cena's merch sales WWE would be like they were in 1995. Cena deserves everything handed to him for carrying this company on his back. He's stale as f*** but he's keeping them afloat. If he sells 5x's the merch than the second person that is an amazing thing. All well and good on the merch front, but if that is the be all end all, then there is no reason to run matches on RAW anymore. The company could make more money by laying everyone not named John Cena off and running 3 hour infomercials where Cena recites moral platitudes and comes out with a new shirt every segment. Yes he sells five times the merch, he always HAS five times the merch. And again, if that is the only number that matters, as compared to them losing subscribers to the network, losing PPV buys, losing viewers (and therefore ad revenue) on a weekly basis, then they're set. I'd argue though, that with their reliance during the " season that matters" on nostalgia acts, that those are the acts that bring them money.
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Post by Urfarkendarf on Oct 21, 2014 22:07:38 GMT -5
In the traditional sense? No. No matter how many kids are there to see him, its not like Austin/Hogan/Rock where it was damn near universal that everyone in the building was there for one or two guys. There's too much antipathy towards Cena from a lot of fans whereas the void with the biggest draws in terms of the segment who dont like a top guy was much less. In a sense those guys transcended the business for a period of time at least. I don't think Cena has even smelled that. I think Punk is the last one who they had a real chance to get to that stratosphere, but they (WWE) or just the way the business is now held him back for whatever reason. Cena is not a guy that many people buy tickets just to see. The entire WWE "experience" has taken over at this point. When I went to shows during the late 90s/2000s, I was always there to see Rock or Austin. Since about 2004-05, I'm there to see WWE. Its a marked difference.
However, Cena's success is undeniable now. He's just attained it differently and in a much different era. The difference in how the business is now compared to how it was just 12-15 years ago is light years. But yes, I think Cena will be remembered as a "draw", but the definition of draw has changed.
Does anyone believe that if the Monday Night Wars were going on right now that Cena would be WWE's top guy? I doubt it incredibly. Cena is the safe choice right now. He's a 100% company guy in a time when there really is only one really successful company and its been this way for his entire career. They would be forced to take a lot more chances if they had competition and I don't think Cena is the type of guy they'd rely on in a "Wars" atmosphere.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 21, 2014 22:14:34 GMT -5
Without Cena's merch sales WWE would be like they were in 1995. Cena deserves everything handed to him for carrying this company on his back. He's stale as f*** but he's keeping them afloat. If he sells 5x's the merch than the second person that is an amazing thing. That's not true. WWE makes a lot more money from domestic tv broadcast rights now than they did in the Attitude Era. It doesn't have much to do Cena, that's just how the television market has shifted in the last 10 or so years. EVERYONE is making more money on tv.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Oct 21, 2014 22:23:14 GMT -5
I really don't think so, because in the eyes of most fans who care enough about wrestling to have those conversations, he's a problem. You think the little kids on the playground or the women who watch casually with their boyfriends ever talk about what a draw John Cena is? The only people who will ever call the guy a sincere draw will be talking heads on WWE-produced revisionist documentaries.
Like others have already pointed out, Cena sells T-shirts, hats, wristbands, towels, K-Mart shoes, and fake dog tags. You know what he doesn't sell? Tickets, PPVs, and Network subscriptions. If he did, those things would see an upswing with his presence, but they don't. People don't pay money to see the guy, but they'll buy his junk for their kids.
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ededdneddy
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Post by ededdneddy on Oct 22, 2014 0:09:59 GMT -5
Cena is only a draw in merch sales and thats because he takes up an entire f**king wall when you see merch at wwe events. Its sad that you see all of the other guys on the roster having at most 1-2 different shirts and only take up a small portion of the sales wall where as Cena has an entire wall or a wall and a half just for himself and he has like what 10-15 different things on sale which includes shirts, wristbands, hats, etc. Of course he will be the only one to sell merch cause hes got the most to sell.
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Post by Gerard Gerard on Oct 22, 2014 0:11:22 GMT -5
He has transcended the once definitions of 'draw', he is now the company manifest.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 0:17:20 GMT -5
I'd say he'll be remembered like someone like Bret, who just kept the fort down while the company was largely stagnating in terms of popularity, quality, and roster depth. Just for over a decade with no end in sight as opposed to for like five years with a one year gap in the form of Diesel in there.
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Post by sonofblaine on Oct 22, 2014 0:23:50 GMT -5
He's certainly a draw. Am I a fan? Not at all. But he does have fans. Just because most of his fans are kids and casual wrestling fans and not people on a website, frothing at the mouth at his every nuance (guilty), doesn't discredit them as contributors to the masses that want to see the product and are willing to shell out the cash for it.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Oct 22, 2014 0:29:36 GMT -5
Cena is only a draw in merch sales and thats because he takes up an entire f**king wall when you see merch at wwe events. Its sad that you see all of the other guys on the roster having at most 1-2 different shirts and only take up a small portion of the sales wall where as Cena has an entire wall or a wall and a half just for himself and he has like what 10-15 different things on sale which includes shirts, wristbands, hats, etc. Of course he will be the only one to sell merch cause hes got the most to sell. Isn't that a chicken-egg deal though? Would they make so much merch if he didn't move a lot of it to begin with? If they made a truck load of Kofi merchandise and put it out there I seriously doubt it would move.
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ededdneddy
Hank Scorpio
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Post by ededdneddy on Oct 22, 2014 2:02:55 GMT -5
Cena is only a draw in merch sales and thats because he takes up an entire f**king wall when you see merch at wwe events. Its sad that you see all of the other guys on the roster having at most 1-2 different shirts and only take up a small portion of the sales wall where as Cena has an entire wall or a wall and a half just for himself and he has like what 10-15 different things on sale which includes shirts, wristbands, hats, etc. Of course he will be the only one to sell merch cause hes got the most to sell. Isn't that a chicken-egg deal though? Would they make so much merch if he didn't move a lot of it to begin with? If they made a truck load of Kofi merchandise and put it out there I seriously doubt it would move. Its the companys job to want to push you and put any kind of investment into you. Like how you said Kofi merch wouldn't move/sell well how the hell can it when the company has never put out not just merchandise but "have something for you" cause if they never have the gull to put you on a ppv or tv taping card then yes you will never be able to draw. Seriously when we see the same people every week and they don't bother to put you on tv its more creatives fault as to why you aren't getting exposed and being able to draw a dime.
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Post by Hobby Drifter on Oct 22, 2014 3:24:46 GMT -5
Depends? Does Cena continue to tow the company line at the expense of his own health and well-being long past when any respectable doctors insisted he retire, make himself available whenever WWE needs, and refrain from saying anything negative about THIS BUSINESS unless specifically told to do so?
If so, WWE will probably try to make sure his legacy is secure. Otherwise? Nope. Just a pale shadow of guys like the Andre, the Rock, and Edge, the greatest of their eras.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 22, 2014 3:30:10 GMT -5
Given he's factually a bigger draw than Shawn Michaels and Bret were, and they're remembered as legends, then sure.
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Boo!
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Boo! on Oct 22, 2014 5:03:20 GMT -5
In Bret and Shawn's error they had competition that was at least as good if not better than they were with arguably greater exposure due to their parent company. Are the ratings vastly different. The average of 1996 seems to be 2.7
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kevin
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Post by kevin on Oct 22, 2014 6:07:56 GMT -5
Yes, without question.
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Post by Ryushinku on Oct 22, 2014 6:29:02 GMT -5
Yes.
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