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Post by Red Impact on Oct 22, 2015 15:29:09 GMT -5
So basically, they just nerf the characters so others can actually have a chance? More that they just don't allow mid-maxing. They try to make an argument for how canonically strong a character is, which is why they use sources beyond FF7 where Tifa doesn't carry summons and hasn't been maxed out on all stats and carries 99 megalixers to try to determine her best representative abilities. Obviously, everything they do is just a bunch of fanservice self-promotion and shouldn't be taken seriously, but they at least try to apply some sort of internal logic most of the time.
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JTH
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Post by JTH on Oct 22, 2015 15:36:12 GMT -5
I wonder if Final Fantasy fans will be as whiny as the Naruto/DBZ/anime fans who flooded the comments after their losses. The comment section on youtube has been relatively calm, but there are accusations of Screw Attack showing favortism to RWBY. Well, seeing that Screwattack! and the company that created RWBY (Rooster Teeth) are owned by the same company, I'd say they have a valid case.
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dav
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Post by dav on Oct 22, 2015 15:39:14 GMT -5
So basically, they just nerf the characters so others can actually have a chance? More that they just don't allow mid-maxing. They try to make an argument for how canonically strong a character is, which is why they use sources beyond FF7 where Tifa doesn't carry summons and hasn't been maxed out on all stats and carries 99 megalixers to try to determine her best representative abilities. Obviously, everything they do is just a bunch of fanservice self-promotion and shouldn't be taken seriously, but they at least try to apply some sort of internal logic most of the time. Just seems wonky when summons don't count as a skill because they're classed as outside help, but Doombots do. If you wanted to use the canon, use the canon. Don't have to use stats to show how strong a character can be. Just need to ask "Can they use this ability?" If the answer's yes, then go for it. Granted, you're right. It is basically fanservice and their own bias and fanwank in the past has been fairly apparent.
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Post by Red Impact on Oct 22, 2015 15:45:36 GMT -5
More that they just don't allow mid-maxing. They try to make an argument for how canonically strong a character is, which is why they use sources beyond FF7 where Tifa doesn't carry summons and hasn't been maxed out on all stats and carries 99 megalixers to try to determine her best representative abilities. Obviously, everything they do is just a bunch of fanservice self-promotion and shouldn't be taken seriously, but they at least try to apply some sort of internal logic most of the time. Just seems wonky when summons don't count as a skill because they're classed as outside help, but Doombots do. If you wanted to use the canon, use the canon. Don't have to use stats to show how strong a character can be. Just need to ask "Can they use this ability?" If the answer's yes, then go for it. Granted, you're right. It is basically fanservice and their own bias and fanwank in the past has been fairly apparent. I don't really know why they don't use summons, that's just my theory. But I think there's something to be said for the fact that you can't really base Tifa on the arbitrary stats from one of her incarnation more than you can from how she's been depicted since then, where FFVII characters don't just skip around casting KOTR and miming it on every enemy. If a character doesn't display certain abilities in any other subsequent appearance, they dont' feel that you can count them as having it because a player may have put it on them in a game. KOTR, or any summon, doesn't belong exclusively to Tifa, nor does she appear to use them after FFVII. And the animations at teh end are the same as they were deadliest warrior, just fun fantasy fights and not their "real" depiction of how the fight would go. Doombots were only put in because their ridiculously cliche with Dr. Doom, but Doom beats Vader because he's f***ing Dr. Doom, not because he has robot duplicates.
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Post by Cela on Oct 22, 2015 16:07:21 GMT -5
I wonder if Final Fantasy fans will be as whiny as the Naruto/DBZ/anime fans who flooded the comments after their losses. Not a fan of Naruto or DBZ outside abridged. But Sand Dude, based on what we saw in the hype vids should have won over Toph. And Buu should have curbstopped frikkin Kirby.
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dav
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Post by dav on Oct 22, 2015 16:08:15 GMT -5
Just seems wonky when summons don't count as a skill because they're classed as outside help, but Doombots do. If you wanted to use the canon, use the canon. Don't have to use stats to show how strong a character can be. Just need to ask "Can they use this ability?" If the answer's yes, then go for it. Granted, you're right. It is basically fanservice and their own bias and fanwank in the past has been fairly apparent. I don't really know why they don't use summons, that's just my theory. But I think there's something to be said for the fact that you can't really base Tifa on the arbitrary stats from one of her incarnation more than you can from how she's been depicted since then, where FFVII characters don't just skip around casting KOTR and miming it on every enemy. If a character doesn't display certain abilities in any other subsequent appearance, they dont' feel that you can count them as having it because a player may have put it on them in a game. KOTR, or any summon, doesn't belong exclusively to Tifa, nor does she appear to use them after FFVII. And the animations at teh end are the same as they were deadliest warrior, just fun fantasy fights and not their "real" depiction of how the fight would go. Doombots were only put in because their ridiculously cliche with Dr. Doom, but Doom beats Vader because he's f***ing Dr. Doom, not because he has robot duplicates. I mistook that for King of The Ring at first and got a mental image of Tifa cutting a 3:16-esque promo then. But there's really no reason why no FF7 characters can't use Knights of The Round. It's a perfectly valid weapon to use under the rules and can be shifted to any character. Just because they haven't used it in some incarnations, doesn't mean that it's out of the game entirely. Like I said, just seems as a way to nerf a particular character more than anything. Agreed that Doctor Doom can beat Darth Vader, Doom's one of the greatest villains of all time and Vader... isn't.
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Post by Red Impact on Oct 22, 2015 16:53:23 GMT -5
I wonder if Final Fantasy fans will be as whiny as the Naruto/DBZ/anime fans who flooded the comments after their losses. Not a fan of Naruto or DBZ outside abridged. But Sand Dude, based on what we saw in the hype vids should have won over Toph. And Buu should have curbstopped frikkin Kirby. Nah, I'll still defend that result. Toph is way more versatile and, by her peak power, could not only manipulate metal but also had strong enough control to sense things across the planet. Gaara can make sand weapons and has a strong defense, but I see no reason why Toph couldn't have won that battle. Buu and Kirby was just hilarious. But there's really no reason why no FF7 characters can't use Knights of The Round. It's a perfectly valid weapon to use under the rules and can be shifted to any character. Just because they haven't used it in some incarnations, doesn't mean that it's out of the game entirely. Like I said, just seems as a way to nerf a particular character more than anything. I see more as being true to the character in how they are depicted. None of them tend to carry summons as evidenced by a lack of it in the other incarnations, and you can't change your materia layout mid-battle. If I don't walk out of the house carrying a firearm, it really doesn't matter if I own one if I get jumped, you only get credit for the items you carry at the time. If Square wanted to show that summons were used often, they would have given them the materia in one of the other depictions of the character. But Tifa prefers to jump in and fight with her fists everytime she's depicted out of a player's control, so that's what she has access to. And really, I'm not sure if KotR would have won the battle anyways, given how strong they durable they made Yang look. They pretty much made it look like as long as Yang could remain conscious, she could hit Tifa back with more force than Tifa could hit her. So no matter what, as long as she's not KO'ed on the first hit, she'd eventually win.
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dav
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Post by dav on Oct 22, 2015 17:09:36 GMT -5
Not a fan of Naruto or DBZ outside abridged. But Sand Dude, based on what we saw in the hype vids should have won over Toph. And Buu should have curbstopped frikkin Kirby. Nah, I'll still defend that result. Toph is way more versatile and, by her peak power, could not only manipulate metal but also had strong enough control to sense things across the planet. Gaara can make sand weapons and has a strong defense, but I see no reason why Toph couldn't have won that battle. Buu and Kirby was just hilarious. But there's really no reason why no FF7 characters can't use Knights of The Round. It's a perfectly valid weapon to use under the rules and can be shifted to any character. Just because they haven't used it in some incarnations, doesn't mean that it's out of the game entirely. Like I said, just seems as a way to nerf a particular character more than anything. I see more as being true to the character in how they are depicted. None of them tend to carry summons as evidenced by a lack of it in the other incarnations, and you can't change your materia layout mid-battle. If I don't walk out of the house carrying a firearm, it really doesn't matter if I own one if I get jumped, you only get credit for the items you carry at the time. If Square wanted to show that summons were used often, they would have given them the materia in one of the other depictions of the character. But Tifa prefers to jump in and fight with her fists everytime she's depicted out of a player's control, so that's what she has access to. And really, I'm not sure if KotR would have won the battle anyways, given how strong they durable they made Yang look. They pretty much made it look like as long as Yang could remain conscious, she could hit Tifa back with more force than Tifa could hit her. So no matter what, as long as she's not KO'ed on the first hit, she'd eventually win. There were storyline reasons for them not using materia at that time. They carried them throughout FF7, which is where the bulk of their characterisation and skills come from. If they wanted to have the characters at their optimal skills, they should have the summons. And the summons were kept back for storyline (And, I imagine, budgetary) reasons. Once a threat's known, the group do make use of what they can from the materia. There's no real excuse in the Death Battles for them not to use it, so they may as well. Well, others have pointed out there might be some backstage shenanigans for that aspect of making one character look strong. As for Yang hitting Tifa, there's the Counter materia which could come into play if we went that far. No reason to say that it wouldn't knock her out though. KOTR still stands as one of the best summons in FF's history.
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Post by Red Impact on Oct 22, 2015 17:13:31 GMT -5
There were storyline reasons for them not using materia at that time. They carried them throughout FF7, which is where the bulk of their characterisation and skills come from. If they wanted to have the characters at their optimal skills, they should have the summons. And the summons were kept back for storyline (And, I imagine, budgetary) reasons. Once a threat's known, the group do make use of what they can from the materia. There's no real excuse in the Death Battles for them not to use it, so they may as well. Well, others have pointed out there might be some backstage shenanigans for that aspect of making one character look strong. As for Yang hitting Tifa, there's the Counter materia which could come into play if we went that far. No reason to say that it wouldn't knock her out though. KOTR still stands as one of the best summons in FF's history. They said in a previous battle (Batman vs. Spiderman, I believe) that they don't let there be any foreknowledge of the fight to prevent various prep-time arguments. So as the threat would not be known, if it's not something of hers or something she doesn't typically carry (and it's not), then she just doesn't get to use it.
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dav
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Post by dav on Oct 22, 2015 17:24:35 GMT -5
There were storyline reasons for them not using materia at that time. They carried them throughout FF7, which is where the bulk of their characterisation and skills come from. If they wanted to have the characters at their optimal skills, they should have the summons. And the summons were kept back for storyline (And, I imagine, budgetary) reasons. Once a threat's known, the group do make use of what they can from the materia. There's no real excuse in the Death Battles for them not to use it, so they may as well. Well, others have pointed out there might be some backstage shenanigans for that aspect of making one character look strong. As for Yang hitting Tifa, there's the Counter materia which could come into play if we went that far. No reason to say that it wouldn't knock her out though. KOTR still stands as one of the best summons in FF's history. They said in a previous battle (Batman vs. Spiderman, I believe) that they don't let there be any foreknowledge of the fight to prevent various prep-time arguments. So as the threat would not be known, if it's not something of hers or something she doesn't typically carry (and it's not), then she just doesn't get to use it. Don't need prep-time, just give them the optimal equipment they have on both sides. As I said, there's no reason why she can't have it on her really. It's a powerful weapon and magic that can be used. The Counter Materia point was just something I mentioned as another skill that could be used.
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JTH
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Post by JTH on Oct 22, 2015 17:32:03 GMT -5
There were storyline reasons for them not using materia at that time. They carried them throughout FF7, which is where the bulk of their characterisation and skills come from. If they wanted to have the characters at their optimal skills, they should have the summons. And the summons were kept back for storyline (And, I imagine, budgetary) reasons. Once a threat's known, the group do make use of what they can from the materia. There's no real excuse in the Death Battles for them not to use it, so they may as well. Well, others have pointed out there might be some backstage shenanigans for that aspect of making one character look strong. As for Yang hitting Tifa, there's the Counter materia which could come into play if we went that far. No reason to say that it wouldn't knock her out though. KOTR still stands as one of the best summons in FF's history. They said in a previous battle (Batman vs. Spiderman, I believe) that they don't let there be any foreknowledge of the fight to prevent various prep-time arguments. So as the threat would not be known, if it's not something of hers or something she doesn't typically carry (and it's not), then she just doesn't get to use it. By that logic, Raiden shouldn't have been able to use the Murasama Blade in the Wolverine Death Battle. He had that weapon what, five seconds in the game? They let him use it.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Oct 22, 2015 17:45:11 GMT -5
They said in a previous battle (Batman vs. Spiderman, I believe) that they don't let there be any foreknowledge of the fight to prevent various prep-time arguments. So as the threat would not be known, if it's not something of hers or something she doesn't typically carry (and it's not), then she just doesn't get to use it. By that logic, Raiden shouldn't have been able to use the Murasama Blade in the Wolverine Death Battle. He had that weapon what, five seconds in the game? They let him use it. In that instance it didn't matter because all of Raiden's swords are high frequency blades and would have had the same results on Wolverine regardless. They probably just went with Murasama because it was the coolest looking one.
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JTH
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Post by JTH on Oct 22, 2015 18:10:33 GMT -5
By that logic, Raiden shouldn't have been able to use the Murasama Blade in the Wolverine Death Battle. He had that weapon what, five seconds in the game? They let him use it. In that instance it didn't matter because all of Raiden's swords are high frequency blades and would have had the same results on Wolverine regardless. They probably just went with Murasama because it was the coolest looking one. The fact is they allowed Raiden to have the strongest weapon in the game. Regardless of result, it would make it easier to do. That's like saying I can break bone with my bare hand, but you give me a sledge hammer that I can use. Same result, but one is WAY easier than the other.
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Post by H-Virus on Oct 22, 2015 19:19:12 GMT -5
Death Battle have always been pretty weird about what equipment characters are allowed to use. Some times they only give them their most iconic weaponry (ex.: Wonder Woman only having her traditional lasso but not a sword despite using one on several occasions), other times they give them things they only ever used once or twice (ex: Deadpool's carbonadium sword, which was used by an AU Deadpool who was later killed by the original).
Then there's situations like Spawn vs Kratos where they gave Kratos a bunch of useless melee weapons but none of his godly magic attacks. He might have still lost, but it would have given him a much better chance at least.
Hell, they gave Batman different weapons in his battle against Cap than the ones he used in his battle with Spider-Man. You would think for the sake of fairness that he would be made to use the exact same set for both, wouldn't you?
Those inconsistencies are the only thing that really bother me about the series.
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Post by Red Impact on Oct 22, 2015 19:41:04 GMT -5
They said in a previous battle (Batman vs. Spiderman, I believe) that they don't let there be any foreknowledge of the fight to prevent various prep-time arguments. So as the threat would not be known, if it's not something of hers or something she doesn't typically carry (and it's not), then she just doesn't get to use it. Don't need prep-time, just give them the optimal equipment they have on both sides. As I said, there's no reason why she can't have it on her really. It's a powerful weapon and magic that can be used. The Counter Materia point was just something I mentioned as another skill that could be used. I don't think it would have made a difference, like I said before, because their descriptions made it sound like Yang would have survived it just fine (they make it out like she has two abilities, extreme durability and the ability to hitback harder), then used the kinetic energy or whatever to kill Tifa anyways. I'd also question how the mechanics of an FFVII style summon would change in an environment where characters can, well, move. If a character has the ability to dodge, I think there are a few of the KotR knights that probably wouldn't hit. Overall, though, I just see more logic in giving them things they've only been canonically linked with through multiple sources as opposed to something thing they might have been given at some point had they, within the context of saving the world from Sephiroth, spent a few months breeding chocobos. Either way, I think this is way too much thought to be putting into a fanwank videos
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JTH
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Post by JTH on Oct 22, 2015 20:36:03 GMT -5
Those inconsistencies are the only thing that really bother me about the series. DK vs. Knuckles was the biggest offender of this by far. Frankly, they made complete nonfactual statements to change the main philosophy of Death Battle, mainly "Maximum Potential", which they preached about to no end in the DB before DK/Knuckles (Goku/Superman II)
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Oct 22, 2015 20:39:43 GMT -5
This is kinda dumb.
Fascinating commentary and insight, I know
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Post by Red Impact on Oct 22, 2015 21:12:11 GMT -5
This is kinda dumb. Fascinating commentary and insight, I know No, I actually think that sums up Death Battle perfectly
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dav
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Post by dav on Oct 23, 2015 3:56:18 GMT -5
Don't need prep-time, just give them the optimal equipment they have on both sides. As I said, there's no reason why she can't have it on her really. It's a powerful weapon and magic that can be used. The Counter Materia point was just something I mentioned as another skill that could be used. I don't think it would have made a difference, like I said before, because their descriptions made it sound like Yang would have survived it just fine (they make it out like she has two abilities, extreme durability and the ability to hitback harder), then used the kinetic energy or whatever to kill Tifa anyways. I'd also question how the mechanics of an FFVII style summon would change in an environment where characters can, well, move. If a character has the ability to dodge, I think there are a few of the KotR knights that probably wouldn't hit. Overall, though, I just see more logic in giving them things they've only been canonically linked with through multiple sources as opposed to something thing they might have been given at some point had they, within the context of saving the world from Sephiroth, spent a few months breeding chocobos. Either way, I think this is way too much thought to be putting into a fanwank videos From Death Battle's history and what people have said on this thread, any thought is probably more than they put into it. Also, the summons are shown to work in more real time elsewhere in other sources, so no reason not to use them once again, not sure if they used kinetic energy for it. Seems to come more under the labeling of magic. Also, they could have given her a chocobo as well under their reasoning. I don't mind bullshit, just so long as it's consistent bullshit.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Oct 23, 2015 7:02:33 GMT -5
I don't think it would have made a difference, like I said before, because their descriptions made it sound like Yang would have survived it just fine (they make it out like she has two abilities, extreme durability and the ability to hitback harder), then used the kinetic energy or whatever to kill Tifa anyways. I'd also question how the mechanics of an FFVII style summon would change in an environment where characters can, well, move. If a character has the ability to dodge, I think there are a few of the KotR knights that probably wouldn't hit. Overall, though, I just see more logic in giving them things they've only been canonically linked with through multiple sources as opposed to something thing they might have been given at some point had they, within the context of saving the world from Sephiroth, spent a few months breeding chocobos. Either way, I think this is way too much thought to be putting into a fanwank videos From Death Battle's history and what people have said on this thread, any thought is probably more than they put into it. Also, the summons are shown to work in more real time elsewhere in other sources, so no reason not to use them once again, not sure if they used kinetic energy for it. Seems to come more under the labeling of magic. Also, they could have given her a chocobo as well under their reasoning. I don't mind bullshit, just so long as it's consistent bullshit. Well then this is consistent bullshit as they limited Cloud in the exact same ways when he fought Link. No summons, only two materia(fire and thunder), his best possible equipment, and again used his Dissidia load out to determine most of it.
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