riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jan 18, 2016 1:22:53 GMT -5
I had the pleasure of seeing Michael Jackson live during his World Dangerous Tour when I lived in Germany. It truly was a magical, exciting, and powerful show that I will always remember for the rest of my life.
Would he still tour if he were alive today? I don't think so. He stated many times that he didn't like touring, like many others said, I imagine he'd probably do a one shot show here and there, maybe another album, and guest appearances on albums here and there.
But in all honesty, Michael always said he wanted to get into the world of film and innovate it to a new level. Kind of makes you wonder what level he would've taken cinema to if he were alive today.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jan 18, 2016 2:00:44 GMT -5
The judge did NOT discredit the claimants. He threw the cases out based on a statute of limitations on claims of property of the deceased. However, those two have still retained attorneys and are seeking various legal avenues.
If you actually read Robson's claim it wasn't just all of a sudden that he changed his story. It happened when he had a child of his own. NOT at all an uncommon thing for molestation victims to reface their pasts when they start their own families. Their were hundreds that fell under that category during the Catholic church scandals and Boyscout scandals. Which is a precedent that has been used to go beyond statutes of limitations in other cases. So the case isn't dead ike you assume because the media bias you turned to has declared him discredited by a judge.
However that is neither here nor there. Honestly so very few of us "knows" it's just our own beliefs and perceptions. I believe in regards to OP's question the floodgates were opened. MJ couldn't keep kids out of his bed, whether innocent compulsion, or something more evil, and kept getting sued by either people who were victims or people who wanted to take his money. Also his family was still sponging off him and stressing him. It's clear his life was a mess in more ways then one, so despite how his fans want to believe he was one good turn to recapturing his 80s innocent image and reputation, I'd argue that would never happen.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 18, 2016 7:21:23 GMT -5
If Michael Jackson were alive today, we'd be living in the "Thriller" video 24/7. That would rock!
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 18, 2016 7:25:24 GMT -5
He was done. Completely washed up. He was physically wrecked. Even if he lived, those concerts in London were never going to happen. I'd have been surprised if he was able to do one show, let alone fifty. The only chance he had for some sort of realistic comeback was a stripped down album. Just a studio album, no tour, just release singles. No burden of an exhausting concert. Maybe write or produce songs for other artists. As for the abuse thing, I think it's likely something would have happened again. He just never learned from experience. There would be a new pet boy, sleeping in his house, visiting the Neverland zoo etc....and then boom, another allegation. Sooner or later, it would happen.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jan 18, 2016 9:00:48 GMT -5
The judge did NOT discredit the claimants. He threw the cases out based on a statute of limitations on claims of property of the deceased. However, those two have still retained attorneys and are seeking various legal avenues. If you actually read Robson's claim it wasn't just all of a sudden that he changed his story. It happened when he had a child of his own. NOT at all an uncommon thing for molestation victims to reface their pasts when they start their own families. Their were hundreds that fell under that category during the Catholic church scandals and Boyscout scandals. Which is a precedent that has been used to go beyond statutes of limitations in other cases. So the case isn't dead ike you assume because the media bias you turned to has declared him discredited by a judge. However that is neither here nor there. Honestly so very few of us "knows" it's just our own beliefs and perceptions. I believe in regards to OP's question the floodgates were opened. MJ couldn't keep kids out of his bed, whether innocent compulsion, or something more evil, and kept getting sued by either people who were victims or people who wanted to take his money. Also his family was still sponging off him and stressing him. It's clear his life was a mess in more ways then one, so despite how his fans want to believe he was one good turn to recapturing his 80s innocent image and reputation, I'd argue that would never happen. Actually I read Robson's claims, what you most likely didn't read or neglected to mention, was that a judge who was looking over his claims read them for two years and found them to lack credibility. From my perspective it's not out of fandom, it's out of mindset where I see an individual changed his story after defending Michael in 1993, 2005, and even after his death, to all of a sudden saying "Oh, he did molest me and only did I realize it after therapy, and having a kid myself." I never said he was going to recapture his 80's glory. However, I know an extortion case when I see one and every "molestation" case been about money. If Michael truly was a pedophile and this monster, how come he didn't molest his own children? His nieces? Nephews? and let's not forget the hundreds, to thousands of children who spent the night there. I am not saying Michael didn't have issues, wasn't mentally damaged due to him being abused. But people need to read facts instead of sensationalistic sites and magagzines before making false statements. Once again, I have no media bias. I have researched the case and still find myself reading about from time to time, so I am looking at it from a perspective of researching the facts. Yes, the judge reviewed Robson's claims, debunked it, and threw it out because his claims lacked credibility. You don't defend someone in 1993, 2005, and after his death, it just doesn't happen, I don't care what you or anyone says, it just doesn't happen that way. If Robson was truly credible then those accusations that came up in 2005 should've/would've/could've sparked those same "memories" to manifest themselves then. But the fact of the matter is this. While I truly believe Michael was and will always be innocent, none of us will ever know what happened. The only ones who truly knew is Michael and those kids, we can speculate and debate until our fingers fall off from the keyboard, face turns blue, and so forth. At the end of the day we weren't in the bedroom or in the bed so we can't say for sure what did or didn't happen. However, I choose to believe Michael when he says he wouldn't harm a child. That's just what I believe and it has nothing to do with bias, fandom, it has to do with me actually reading about it, watching videos from independent investigators, and books that detail how he was set up and a victim of an extortion plot. You do know the DA in the case was caught lying under oath and attempting to plant evidence in 2005, right? He also started a website and even went abroad to find children that Michael allegedly molested, only to find nothing, the FBI followed Michael without his knowledge for 17 years and found nothing. Michael under heavy sedation before he died talked about opening a children's hospital, do you know when an individual is under sedation their true and actual thoughts come out? So why didn't Michael under heavy sedation say he molested kids? Once again if your claims hold any merit to them then the media will definitely find a way to make a story out of it.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jan 18, 2016 9:06:45 GMT -5
He was done. Completely washed up. He was physically wrecked. Even if he lived, those concerts in London were never going to happen. I'd have been surprised if he was able to do one show, let alone fifty. The only chance he had for some sort of realistic comeback was a stripped down album. Just a studio album, no tour, just release singles. No burden of an exhausting concert. Maybe write or produce songs for other artists. As for the abuse thing, I think it's likely something would have happened again. He just never learned from experience. There would be a new pet boy, sleeping in his house, visiting the Neverland zoo etc....and then boom, another allegation. Sooner or later, it would happen. I don't know, considering how he left the country, became a recluse pretty much, and really wasn't heard from again until James Brown's funeral and Thriller 25 was pretty telling. I definitely don't believe he would've put himself through that again. Even after all of that he wasn't heard from until the announcement of the "This Is It" concerts. Michael was very, very quiet and truly lived a reclusive life after the trial.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 18, 2016 10:02:04 GMT -5
MJ is probably my favorite pop artist of all time, but I try to look at his legacy from a balanced perspective. Not taking my fandom into account, the stories of his accusers are too dodgy for me not take them with grains of salt. And even if I did believe them, I would still be able to separate his work as an artist from him personally.
At worse, I see a man who likely suffered from bipolar disorder and a desire to mentally regress at times, which contrasted with the hard-working business savvy superstar he was on his better days. For all of his triumphs and celebrity friends he made, his life was pretty damn dysfunctional and hectic, and over the years it definitely took a toll on him mentally. I forgot what comedian said this originally, but in a nutshell "Michael Jackson died from being Michael Jackson".
I could see him maybe putting out one album between the Arvizo trial and present day, maybe doing a few collaborations with Drake, Yeezy, etc.
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Post by cageking666 on Jan 18, 2016 10:13:18 GMT -5
MJ is probably my favorite pop artist of all time, but I try to look at his legacy from a balanced perspective. Not taking my fandom into account, the stories of his accusers are too dodgy for me not take them with grains of salt. And even if I did believe them, I would still be able to separate his work as an artist from him personally. At worse, I see a man who likely suffered from bipolar disorder and a desire to mentally regress at times, which contrasted with the hard-working business savvy superstar he was on his better days. For all of his triumphs and celebrity friends he made, his life was pretty damn dysfunctional and hectic, and over the years it definitely took a toll on him mentally. I forgot what comedian said this originally, but in a nutshell "Michael Jackson died from being Michael Jackson". I could see him maybe putting out one album between the Arvizo trial and present day, maybe doing a few collaborations with Drake, Yeezy, etc. A Kanye/Michael/Janet song would be fire
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jan 18, 2016 12:21:28 GMT -5
Ok, I'll bite. I would really like to see a quote of the judge discrediting Robson. The closest I have found is the quote by Jackson's Attorney... “The court’s dismissal of Wade Robson’s claim against the Estate of Michael Jackson confirms that his lawsuit was inappropriately filed,” Weitzman said. Source...www.cnn.com/2015/05/28/entertainment/molestation-claim-michael-jackson-estate/Not really discrediting the source. In fact if he was discredited he probably wouldn't have been allowed to ammend his complaint in September. Only a small percentage of people have sexual desires they act on toward their own family. The list of pedophiles with perfectly normal families is quite large. I mean I am sexually attracted to women. I've never made a move on my cousins, aunts, etc. I have been with thousands of women. I have made sexual advances on a tiny percentage of them. Pedophiles don't act like SVU/Criminal Minds portrays where they escalate their behavior to fit into a nice one hour episode with enough time to include a chase scene. Many are basically normal people with a skewed attraction. They are attracted to people who there mind tells them. Even the worst priests and Scout leaders who spent thousands of hours around thousands of kids usually only had a small handful of victims. We call them animals for their behavior, but that's just a way to distance ourselves from them. They are human and develop attractions and act on them in many similar ways, the huge difference is that the objects of their desires are not on the same level or understanding as the objects of a normal adults desire. Everyone has a bias. Maybe if I had a magical experience seeing Micheal I would share yours. I did not, my bias comes from a different place. One thing I will say though is don't make blanket statements like people don't defend their attackers, then change their story. It's very dismissive and leads to a leads to a lot of real cases of domestic and sexual abuse staying buried. Victims are real good at self blaming and shaming. If you don't believe Jackson's accusers fine but don't say victims who previously defended someone they accuse are by default not credible. It sets a terrible precedent and leads to more people just shutting up and taking it. I agree with most of this. None of us will ever truly know. I will say you have a bias though, and read and believe what you want to, and I do to but on the opposite end of this spectrum. Yes I know the government handled the case terribly. I also know the FBI has not released any of the files they confiscated from Anthony Pellicano on Jackson. In fact no celebrity that the Sin Eater worked for has really been exposed by his conviction. I don't believe by default that everyone who worked for was a nice person. As for the sedation thing... is this another TV crime show thing? Nothing said under sedation is allowable in court because it isn't reliable. When I came out of anesthesia I thought my nurse looked like a kangaroo. I do not truly and actually think marsupials are allowed to go to medical school. I will reply to this point as the last part. This is the context of this thread. It really isn't about his guilt. It was what do we believe would have happened had he lived. If he had lived he would be answering these questions from media vultures until he did die, unless he somehow started acting like an adult is expected. Honestly I doubt which probably wouldn't have happened. He had to many people who let him live in his eccentricities, and let him put himself in situation after situation where these claims can be made.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 18, 2016 12:26:11 GMT -5
Ritt, why are you liking my post? I'm basically saying I think he's innocent.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 18, 2016 12:32:38 GMT -5
He was done. Completely washed up. He was physically wrecked. Even if he lived, those concerts in London were never going to happen. I'd have been surprised if he was able to do one show, let alone fifty. The only chance he had for some sort of realistic comeback was a stripped down album. Just a studio album, no tour, just release singles. No burden of an exhausting concert. Maybe write or produce songs for other artists. As for the abuse thing, I think it's likely something would have happened again. He just never learned from experience. There would be a new pet boy, sleeping in his house, visiting the Neverland zoo etc....and then boom, another allegation. Sooner or later, it would happen. I'm trying to remember here, but I think there was a scandal just before he died about how he might have only done half the shows because of his physical state, with some other act doing the other half.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jan 18, 2016 12:37:57 GMT -5
Ritt, why are you liking my post? I'm basically saying I think he's innocent. Even though I disagree with you on that aspect I find your post reasonable and accurate. My argument isn't so much about his guilt, but about him not being able to avoid being the Micheal Jackson that destroyed Micheal Jackson.
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Hawk Hart
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Sold his organs.
The Best There Is, the Best There Was, and the Best That There Ever Will Be
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Post by Hawk Hart on Jan 18, 2016 12:58:12 GMT -5
Innocent until proven guilty means f*** all apparently.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jan 18, 2016 13:11:59 GMT -5
Innocent until proven guilty means f*** all apparently. Bill Cosby's case was just thrown out. I doubt he is making a big comeback. OJ was found not guilty but a civil case was allowed to continue. Hell, Hogan was the defendant in the case that ruined his reputation. The court of public opinion is not a legally binding entity.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 18, 2016 13:54:42 GMT -5
Michael would have been better off hiring me as an assistant. I would have set him straight.
MJ: "Can you call my doctor. I need to be drugged to go to sleep?"
Me: "Mike, you need natural sleep. Let's watch some Alberto Del Rio matches. That will knock you out like a light"
MJ: "Shall I buy a new monkey?"
Me: "I've heard they can rip people's faces off. That's the last thing you need"
MJ: "I wanna buy this gold statue of a naked boy?"
Me: "That's not a question Mike. How about we use the money to set up a soup kitchen instead?"
Jermaine on the phone: "Hey, is Michael there?"
Me: "I'm sorry Jermaine. He's cleaning his personal arcade right now. Can I take a message? (which I would never deliver BTW)"
And so forth...
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Post by Porky's Butthole on Jan 18, 2016 16:51:15 GMT -5
"I can't breathe in this box, sha'moan!"
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Post by eDemento2099 on Jan 18, 2016 17:32:57 GMT -5
Wasn't the world tour he was going to do before he died planned to be his farewell tour? He didn't even want to do a 'farewell' tour at that point in his life. According to Ian Halperin's Unmasked The Final Years Of Michael Jackson, MJ was literally forced to prepare for a tour against his will. When you watch This Is It, you're seeing footage that was cherry picked to show the best of MJ during his 11th hour. (This is clear when you notice how often his getup changes during any song's rehearsal.) Who knows? Maybe if MJ was never coerced into touring, he might have been better able to manage his drug habit and might still be alive. He'd likely be retired (certainly as a performer), but possibly still alive.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jan 18, 2016 17:40:41 GMT -5
Innocent until proven guilty means f*** all apparently. For the average person it does. Only the courts are required to hold people to that standard. Same as calling "Freedom of Speech" when tells another to shut the f*** up, it is not the duty of the average person to live by those standards. You may choose to live that if you feel like it but you do not have to. As for Michael, if I remember right, wasn't he massively in debt? He may be making new albums and touring not out of a want to but of a need to.
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Post by wildojinx on Jan 18, 2016 19:20:08 GMT -5
I wonder if he would have a presence on social media (did he have a facebook account before his death?).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2016 19:36:33 GMT -5
Probably work on a project with SEGA. I'd remember reading somewhere before his death, SEGA was going to rereleased Michael Jackson Moonwalker but didn't happen because of his death. It be nice to finally get that Sonic soundtrack from him through.
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