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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 5, 2016 21:43:28 GMT -5
Cap as Hydra was pretty clearly a 'what the hell, gotta get the next issue!?' ploy. That's been going on in comics since pretty much the moment stories started becoming multi-parters in the early forties or so. Anyone that had read comics at all for any length of time knew that, or at least they should've known that. That's what made people flipping their shit about it so weird.
What it didn't have f*** all to do with anything is saying 'white guys don't deserve heroes'. Him turning into a werewolf and later crossdressing in the early 90's (both of which happened) didn't either. There's no legitimate way to make that connection whatever.
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on Aug 5, 2016 21:43:59 GMT -5
...HOWEVER, when it looked like turning around and saying "Nope, Steve Rogers was also a HYDRA member all along- he was our version of a Nazi from the moment he came to play?" That crosses the line. Doing something like that goes further than just "every group of people deserve some heroes that they can point to", or even "if we change the race/sex of a classic white male character, that's worth it to add diversity to our roster", and comes right out and says outright "You had all the heroes for so long that quite frankly, white males don't DESERVE a hero of their own anymore...and honestly, if there are still some nagging white males running around, they either need to die like a dog or become a villain because ALL white males are villains and need to realize this". That's just the other side of the coin, and if it's a slug on one side, it's a slug on the other. I read a lot of complaints about the character change of Steve Rogers' history, most of which fell into either the "this won't stick' or 'this is a publicity stunt' vein (or the weird 'Marvel's being anti-Semitic given Kirby and Simon's vision of the character' argument), but I never read a complaint that came close to what you're suggesting, that Marvel is punishing white male readers for having white men as their heroes, and is taking white male heroes away from white male fans. That's certainly an interesting reading of the situation, though I don't know what about the change or the book itself would actually support that argument (tenuously, the Red Skull's speechifying to a group of white supremacists as a... counter-point? to what's happening to Rogers' history, but that seems a stretch given the messenger, the Red Skull, a bona fide Nazi?). What you're describing doesn't seem to be the other side of the same coin, it doesn't even sound like it's the same currency.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 5, 2016 21:48:01 GMT -5
It's nice to see you people so vehemently disagree on something but still mostly play nice. *breaks expensive porcelain vase* Dude, that was from my dynasty. ![](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/632618134713835520/4LC0yT_g.jpg)
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on Aug 5, 2016 21:52:37 GMT -5
*breaks expensive porcelain vase* Dude, that was from my dynasty. ![](https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/632618134713835520/4LC0yT_g.jpg) Late 14th Ming Dynasty. Oh, it breaks the heart. And the head. You hit me, dad. I'll never forgive myself. Don't worry, I'm all right. Thank God... it's fake. See, you can tell with the cross sections.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 5, 2016 22:11:57 GMT -5
Also ,one of my views which i think not many people touched upon. I thinking making a non-minority character into a minority,doesnt really help minority as people claim. Why? Because the originally succefull character was a white man. That is still what most people will remember the character by. is that the kind of representation people want? To be second rate(insert character here)? If they REALLY cared about representation,they would make new great characters that are minority.Or even make a minor character into that minority and blossom on its own great character,since there is so much room. There is no loss,people are not alienated and you get BETTER more IMPACTFUL representation. Because it's easier people are lazy and don't fight for things anymore instead they go for the cash grab and people happily defend them despite it doing nothing to help things and infact just causes more people to be upset angered over established things being changed i mean hell why make your Philadelphia when you can make Gay Dumb and Dumber and act like you did allot. So is your argument that representation in media doesn't matter/doesn't change anything?
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Post by Crow Dust on Aug 5, 2016 22:27:57 GMT -5
Because it's easier people are lazy and don't fight for things anymore instead they go for the cash grab and people happily defend them despite it doing nothing to help things and infact just causes more people to be upset angered over established things being changed i mean hell why make your Philadelphia when you can make Gay Dumb and Dumber and act like you did allot. So is your argument that representation in media doesn't matter/doesn't change anything? No my argument is that it should be treated with the same equality as a movie or video game or book or what ever that would be written for someone white and hetero because it can be done and has been before and i would rather the character have depth and story and not just be a pat on the back yay we did something schlock that does nothing for anyone great examples of good movie representations Philadelphia= A touching heart wrenching film with amazing writing and depth Brokeback Mountain= Probably the first film i ever saw that made me feel ok with how i felt MKX= Had a great gay character whos sexuality was treated like an after thought for the person he was Build the movie around a character in his own world and let him or her be their own thing or have them be side characters but write them with respect if it's just for diversity sakes then it's not equal it's just trying to do the same thing in reverse and if everyone needs to be represented as much as possible we end up with crap like ![](http://www.thewrap.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/queer-as-folk-2.jpg)
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Shai
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Shai on Aug 5, 2016 22:30:22 GMT -5
I have a hard time with the subject of diversity because honestly I've never really clicked with my own race. I'm black but I was adopted as a baby into a white family. My husband is white and all my friends are white. I've been ostrisized from the black community my entire life because of it. So when people ask me how do you feel about how your race is treated in movies I don't know what to say to them.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 5, 2016 23:17:55 GMT -5
So is your argument that representation in media doesn't matter/doesn't change anything? No my argument is that it should be treated with the same equality as a movie or video game or book or what ever that would be written for someone white and hetero because it can be done and has been before and i would rather the character have depth and story and not just be a pat on the back yay we did something schlock that does nothing for anyone great examples of good movie representations Philadelphia= A touching heart wrenching film with amazing writing and depth Brokeback Mountain= Probably the first film i ever saw that made me feel ok with how i felt MKX= Had a great gay character whos sexuality was treated like an after thought for the person he was I'm afraid I don't understand your argument. Why assume it'll be a "pat on the back"? Why assume it'll be "schlock"? There are certainly examples of diverse casts being cheesy, but ultimately what harm does it do, especially weighed against the potential benefits (obviously so long as they're not playing up stereotypes and the negatives that diverse casting is meant to address, since that just gets patronizing)? I suppose that's where a lot of the drama falls apart for me; I just don't get why there's any reason to get upset by it, sans situations where it's done to harmful ends.
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Post by Crow Dust on Aug 5, 2016 23:32:40 GMT -5
No my argument is that it should be treated with the same equality as a movie or video game or book or what ever that would be written for someone white and hetero because it can be done and has been before and i would rather the character have depth and story and not just be a pat on the back yay we did something schlock that does nothing for anyone great examples of good movie representations Philadelphia= A touching heart wrenching film with amazing writing and depth Brokeback Mountain= Probably the first film i ever saw that made me feel ok with how i felt MKX= Had a great gay character whos sexuality was treated like an after thought for the person he was I'm afraid I don't understand your argument. Why assume it'll be a "pat on the back"? Why assume it'll be "schlock"? There are certainly examples of diverse casts being cheesy, but ultimately what harm does it do, especially weighed against the potential benefits (obviously so long as they're not playing up stereotypes and the negatives that diverse casting is meant to address, since that just gets patronizing)? I suppose that's where a lot of the drama falls apart for me; I just don't get why there's any reason to get upset by it, sans situations where it's done to harmful ends. The argument is what upsets me it frames minorities as people who need a pre made white guy role to actually be in a movie and makes it seem like they couldn't have their own things built for them it's stupid and silly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 23:39:39 GMT -5
I'm afraid I don't understand your argument. Why assume it'll be a "pat on the back"? Why assume it'll be "schlock"? There are certainly examples of diverse casts being cheesy, but ultimately what harm does it do, especially weighed against the potential benefits (obviously so long as they're not playing up stereotypes and the negatives that diverse casting is meant to address, since that just gets patronizing)? I suppose that's where a lot of the drama falls apart for me; I just don't get why there's any reason to get upset by it, sans situations where it's done to harmful ends. The argument is what upsets me it frames minorities as people who need a pre made white guy role to actually be in a movie and makes it seem like they couldn't have their own things built for them it's stupid and silly. Interesting...okay, but if minority actors don't see it that way. What if they're just like, "Hey, this looks like a good part! I want to play this character."?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 23:46:39 GMT -5
Okay - one or two films have a diverse cast. I agree, it is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's not like it's even close to being representative in terms of leads overall. Black, Asian, Hispanic - where are they in American films? Especially the last two. Like I said, you wanna talk lazy? How about the umpteenth reboot of a white character with a white lead? That's lazy, man. That takes next to nil in effort or creativity. It seems like it takes a lot more effort and a much bigger uphill battle to make an accomplished non-white actor work in a traditionally white roll. And dude, the preferred nomenclature is "Croco-Americans" I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit! The reason why Modern Family screams out look in how diverse we are is based on the title of the show ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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Post by Crow Dust on Aug 5, 2016 23:48:22 GMT -5
The argument is what upsets me it frames minorities as people who need a pre made white guy role to actually be in a movie and makes it seem like they couldn't have their own things built for them it's stupid and silly. Interesting...okay, but if minority actors don't see it that way. What if they're just like, "Hey, this looks like a good part! I want to play this character."? Great perfectly fine hopefully he's a great actor and does well but when something is written just for the express purpose of forced diversity and feel goods without much story or reasoning it just comes of forced and patronizing i was fine with Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm because he was just Johnny Storm/Human Torch it didn't seem like they wanted it to be a Black role he was just the guy picked, i am fine with Miles Morales As a new spiderman because he is own character his own spiderman he's not just Peter Parker with a color change Wonder Woman again great character all her own
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Post by Crow Dust on Aug 5, 2016 23:53:07 GMT -5
Okay - one or two films have a diverse cast. I agree, it is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's not like it's even close to being representative in terms of leads overall. Black, Asian, Hispanic - where are they in American films? Especially the last two. Like I said, you wanna talk lazy? How about the umpteenth reboot of a white character with a white lead? That's lazy, man. That takes next to nil in effort or creativity. It seems like it takes a lot more effort and a much bigger uphill battle to make an accomplished non-white actor work in a traditionally white roll. And dude, the preferred nomenclature is "Croco-Americans" I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit! Modern Family is great example of something that can actually show diversity the right way and something people can see them selves in without it being super in your face look how diverse we are it shows minorities as normal everyday people nothing super special nothing super bad and usually smartly written.
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on Aug 6, 2016 0:02:26 GMT -5
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Aug 6, 2016 1:02:24 GMT -5
I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit! The reason why Modern Family screams out look in how diverse we are is based on the title of the show ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) I know. Just using it as an example that there has been a lot of diversity the last few years, despite what some think. And I agree about its smart writing. Especially earlier seasons.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 1:11:06 GMT -5
Interesting...okay, but if minority actors don't see it that way. What if they're just like, "Hey, this looks like a good part! I want to play this character."? Great perfectly fine hopefully he's a great actor and does well but when something is written just for the express purpose of forced diversity and feel goods without much story or reasoning it just comes of forced and patronizing i was fine with Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm because he was just Johnny Storm/Human Torch it didn't seem like they wanted it to be a Black role he was just the guy picked, i am fine with Miles Morales As a new spiderman because he is own character his own spiderman he's not just Peter Parker with a color change Wonder Woman again great character all her own I'm curious of some examples in recent memory that you feel are characters that are "forced diversity." Preferably in film, my TV watching game has been weak lately.
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Post by Crow Dust on Aug 6, 2016 2:11:30 GMT -5
Great perfectly fine hopefully he's a great actor and does well but when something is written just for the express purpose of forced diversity and feel goods without much story or reasoning it just comes of forced and patronizing i was fine with Michael B. Jordan as Johnny Storm because he was just Johnny Storm/Human Torch it didn't seem like they wanted it to be a Black role he was just the guy picked, i am fine with Miles Morales As a new spiderman because he is own character his own spiderman he's not just Peter Parker with a color change Wonder Woman again great character all her own I'm curious of some examples in recent memory that you feel are characters that are "forced diversity." Preferably in film, my TV watching game has been weak lately. Ghostbusters was one for me instead of trying to actually make the best possible thing it was GIRL POWER!!! instead of a team of equal men and women we got an average film i wont call it bad because it was actually ok i just hated the idea and still do of purposefully making it all women instead of trying to find the best actresses and actors and try to make something close to the originals. Counter to Ghostbuster i thought Star Wars was great and presented strong characters like Rey and Finn same with Mad Max with Furiosa who was a great Character And by no means is white washing a good thing either it's just the reverse and it stinks as well Prince Of Persia, Avatar, i wont say anything on Gods Of Egypt though since i don't believe i could fathom what a god would look like anyway though i am displeased at the severe lack of dog headed people
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 2:49:36 GMT -5
I'm curious of some examples in recent memory that you feel are characters that are "forced diversity." Preferably in film, my TV watching game has been weak lately. Ghostbusters was one for me instead of trying to actually make the best possible thing it was GIRL POWER!!! instead of a team of equal men and women we got an average film i wont call it bad because it was actually ok i just hated the idea and still do of purposefully making it all women instead of trying to find the best actresses and actors and try to make something close to the originals. Counter to Ghostbuster i thought Star Wars was great and presented strong characters like Rey and Finn same with Mad Max with Furiosa who was a great Character And by no means is white washing a good thing either it's just the reverse and it stinks as well Prince Of Persia, Avatar, i wont say anything on Gods Of Egypt though since i don't believe i could fathom what a god would look like anyway though i am displeased at the severe lack of dog headed people Okay, I think I'm getting a better picture. So, if a race/gender appropriate actor for a remake was poorly cast (for example, Machine Gun Kelly as Ferris Buller because they think he's the most popular choice) you'd be equally/more/less upset at that prospect? Not the actual choice of Machine Gun Kelly, per se, but that they cast so poorly in general?
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Post by Crow Dust on Aug 6, 2016 2:58:42 GMT -5
Ghostbusters was one for me instead of trying to actually make the best possible thing it was GIRL POWER!!! instead of a team of equal men and women we got an average film i wont call it bad because it was actually ok i just hated the idea and still do of purposefully making it all women instead of trying to find the best actresses and actors and try to make something close to the originals. Counter to Ghostbuster i thought Star Wars was great and presented strong characters like Rey and Finn same with Mad Max with Furiosa who was a great Character And by no means is white washing a good thing either it's just the reverse and it stinks as well Prince Of Persia, Avatar, i wont say anything on Gods Of Egypt though since i don't believe i could fathom what a god would look like anyway though i am displeased at the severe lack of dog headed people Okay, I think I'm getting a better picture. So, if a race/gender appropriate actor for a remake was poorly cast (for example, Machine Gun Kelly as Ferris Buller because they think he's the most popular choice) you'd be equally/more/less upset at that prospect? Not the actual choice of Machine Gun Kelly, per se, but that they cast so poorly in general? Casting and the related story/character like if they decided ok Machine Gun Kelly is Ferris Buller and now instead of being a pretty friendly teenager who is mostly trying to just have fun now he's an angry tattoo loving Swearing d-bag with no character development then they try to coast off the name when they could have just made him his own movie with a different title not just tried to use an already established story/premise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2016 3:02:19 GMT -5
Okay, I think I'm getting a better picture. So, if a race/gender appropriate actor for a remake was poorly cast (for example, Machine Gun Kelly as Ferris Buller because they think he's the most popular choice) you'd be equally/more/less upset at that prospect? Not the actual choice of Machine Gun Kelly, per se, but that they cast so poorly in general? Casting and the related story/character like if they decided ok Machine Gun Kelly is Ferris Buller and now instead of being a pretty friendly teenager who is mostly trying to just have fun now he's an angry tattoo loving Swearing d-bag with no character development then they try to coast off the name when they could have just made him his own movie with a different title not just tried to use an already established story/premise. Yeah basically. Would that make you just as angry/more angry/less angry than an instance of "forced diversity" like GB 2016?
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