Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,331
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 18:25:26 GMT -5
I tuned out for a bit but is one side really arguing: "f*** originality. Too hard. To promote diversity we should change established characters". Really, y'all? It works sometimes, like Miles Morales but its lazy. As a minority I don't want "diversity". I want good characters. I dont care if its male, female, red, white, black or green. Somehow...that makes me...anti-diversity?... Literally nobody said that, so please, and I don't mean this in a scolding way or something jerk-ish like that, don't create strawmen even if you don't intend to. Originality would be the absolute best outcome; a Hollywood that embraces new ideas, new writers, new directors, that isn't afraid and super focus-group centric and then says "we're going to have a black/Latino/female/Asian/gay/etc. lead for this totally new and original big budget project because the idea this writer sent us is awesome." Unfortunately, in an era where studios are demanding $1 billion box office returns, new ideas are dying on the vine and the "same old, same old" keeps getting trotted out because studios feel safer that they'll actually make money. It's why it took forever to even get Deadpool out there, and even then it had a minimized budget; it had a good looking white guy (admittedly marred via makeup then a mask) as the lead, but even just the concept was considered too offbeat and risky to actually invest in beyond what Fox did...and it's a superhero movie! Everybody and their mother spends tons of money on superhero movies, yet Fox still couldn't be bothered to actually invest in a potentially refreshing take on the genre. Against such a backdrop, hoping for Hollywood to come up with new characters who break the stereotypical molds of race, gender, sexuality, etc. is a tough road to hoe. There are babysteps happening, yes, but even then it's largely with pre-existing characters in pre-existing cinematic franchises (Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Ms. Marvel, etc.). Getting something genuinely new and exciting out there in Hollywood is arguably harder than it's almost ever been since about 1960. Additionally, there's the problem of the sheer number of women/minorities/etc. who are part of the content-creating community in and around Hollywood, which many agree is a byproduct of those groups being historically ostracized in Hollywood, which creates a feedback loop where less people in those communities are even inspired to try to get into that circle in the first place. Think of how many people get into things like writing comics or movie scripts because as kids they latched onto characters they could project themselves on to; it's much easier for white dudes like me to do that given how many white male protagonists are out there, but clearly we've still got a long ways to go with people in other groups in society getting that small yet often crucial perk. It's a little like the historical example of women in engineering colleges; back around the 70s and 80s or so, there was a strong surge of women going into STEM fields in colleges around the US. However, coinciding with a history of women being told those fields "aren't women's work", there was a very, very negative reaction to those women being there, and as the years went on stories of poor treatment grew, leading to less and less women applying to take part in those fields of study. The feedback loop was created that implicitly said "women just aren't cut out for this", and thus less and less young women felt drawn to the fields (studies on stuff like that can be found at places like this: www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/). Just so, when the young black kid going to the movies doesn't feel the same connection the young white kid does to the white superhero on screen, it's a bit tougher to inspire the young black kid to want to start writing or creating new characters in the first place, as creators tend to create characters who resemble themselves in some way in the first place. Hence, there's an inherent message, albeit one that is undoubtedly unintended, that says "No, don't you see how few black characters there are now? What makes you think your ideas for character that resembles you would ever be accepted?" Basically, it's about breaking that negative feedback loop, and against the backdrop of risk averse Hollywood, it seems that changing some pre-existing characters is one of the only paths that's really open to break through to the mainstream. Again, originality would be ideal, but Hollywood isn't exactly basking in originality when it comes to big ticket movies nowadays. None of what you said wasn't untrue....but it's still lazy. One thing puzzles me, you said it was easier for you to relate to white dudes cause youre white and theres so many. So you couldnt relate as easy to black characters? Females? Maybe its just a personal me-thing then. Beause It was and still is easy for me to relate to white guys. Females. Blacks. etc. If the character is rich enough. Because odds are something of the human condition will poke out and resonate with you. Maybe just me.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,331
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 18:30:54 GMT -5
I just think its cheap. Its lazy. Its not original. If you want to achieve "diversity" by such a lazy, cheap way, their perogative I 'spose. It aint exactlt failsafe as ghostbusters proved. And as of August 2016, I respectfully disgree, I think there is. Biggest movie of the weekend is diverse AF. Its even got a Crock for the misrepresented Crococdile community. But again, as a minority, I really dont care if the character is a white straight male or a gay trans alien, as much as im concerned with the quality of the character. Okay - one or two films have a diverse cast. I agree, it is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's not like it's even close to being representative in terms of leads overall. Black, Asian, Hispanic - where are they in American films? Especially the last two. Like I said, you wanna talk lazy? How about the umpteenth reboot of a white character with a white lead? That's lazy, man. That takes next to nil in effort or creativity. It seems like it takes a lot more effort and a much bigger uphill battle to make an accomplished non-white actor work in a traditionally white roll. And dude, the preferred nomenclature is "Croco-Americans" I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit!
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 5, 2016 18:42:13 GMT -5
Literally nobody said that, so please, and I don't mean this in a scolding way or something jerk-ish like that, don't create strawmen even if you don't intend to. Originality would be the absolute best outcome; a Hollywood that embraces new ideas, new writers, new directors, that isn't afraid and super focus-group centric and then says "we're going to have a black/Latino/female/Asian/gay/etc. lead for this totally new and original big budget project because the idea this writer sent us is awesome." Unfortunately, in an era where studios are demanding $1 billion box office returns, new ideas are dying on the vine and the "same old, same old" keeps getting trotted out because studios feel safer that they'll actually make money. It's why it took forever to even get Deadpool out there, and even then it had a minimized budget; it had a good looking white guy (admittedly marred via makeup then a mask) as the lead, but even just the concept was considered too offbeat and risky to actually invest in beyond what Fox did...and it's a superhero movie! Everybody and their mother spends tons of money on superhero movies, yet Fox still couldn't be bothered to actually invest in a potentially refreshing take on the genre. Against such a backdrop, hoping for Hollywood to come up with new characters who break the stereotypical molds of race, gender, sexuality, etc. is a tough road to hoe. There are babysteps happening, yes, but even then it's largely with pre-existing characters in pre-existing cinematic franchises (Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Ms. Marvel, etc.). Getting something genuinely new and exciting out there in Hollywood is arguably harder than it's almost ever been since about 1960. Additionally, there's the problem of the sheer number of women/minorities/etc. who are part of the content-creating community in and around Hollywood, which many agree is a byproduct of those groups being historically ostracized in Hollywood, which creates a feedback loop where less people in those communities are even inspired to try to get into that circle in the first place. Think of how many people get into things like writing comics or movie scripts because as kids they latched onto characters they could project themselves on to; it's much easier for white dudes like me to do that given how many white male protagonists are out there, but clearly we've still got a long ways to go with people in other groups in society getting that small yet often crucial perk. It's a little like the historical example of women in engineering colleges; back around the 70s and 80s or so, there was a strong surge of women going into STEM fields in colleges around the US. However, coinciding with a history of women being told those fields "aren't women's work", there was a very, very negative reaction to those women being there, and as the years went on stories of poor treatment grew, leading to less and less women applying to take part in those fields of study. The feedback loop was created that implicitly said "women just aren't cut out for this", and thus less and less young women felt drawn to the fields (studies on stuff like that can be found at places like this: www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/). Just so, when the young black kid going to the movies doesn't feel the same connection the young white kid does to the white superhero on screen, it's a bit tougher to inspire the young black kid to want to start writing or creating new characters in the first place, as creators tend to create characters who resemble themselves in some way in the first place. Hence, there's an inherent message, albeit one that is undoubtedly unintended, that says "No, don't you see how few black characters there are now? What makes you think your ideas for character that resembles you would ever be accepted?" Basically, it's about breaking that negative feedback loop, and against the backdrop of risk averse Hollywood, it seems that changing some pre-existing characters is one of the only paths that's really open to break through to the mainstream. Again, originality would be ideal, but Hollywood isn't exactly basking in originality when it comes to big ticket movies nowadays. None of what you said wasn't untrue....but it's still lazy. One thing puzzles me, you said it was easier for you to relate to white dudes cause youre white and theres so many. So you couldnt relate as easy to black characters? Females? Maybe its just a personal me-thing then. Beause It was and still is easy for me to relate to white guys. Females. Blacks. etc. If the character is rich enough. Because odds are something of the human condition will poke out and resonate with you. Maybe just me. Nobody disagrees that it can feel "lazy". Again, though, in a modern risk-adverse Hollywood, there isn't much else to turn to because new characters and IPs are not in the immediate offing, not when they all want to bank on what's safe and setting unrealistic box office benchmarks every month. Also, no, it isn't just you, but I think there's a context you're leaving out; yes, I can relate to just about any well-fleshed out human character in a movie on an emotional level, but it's a well observed phenomenon (might be a strong word for it) that there's a different level of connection when audiences can even just see things like "hey, that character sounds like me/has hair like me/goes to a school that looks like mine/eats the same types of food I do/lives in a neighborhood like mine", on and on and on. That doesn't mean people are unable to relate to characters who don't look like that, but especially in a country whose history is largely defined by segregation and apartheid, those secondary level things make a pretty big subconscious impact on the viewing audience. In addition I also grew up very spoiled in this regard. I was born in '85; if I got back then to the 80s and early 90s, it was easier for me to latch onto white leads because, well...there really weren't many non-white leads in just about anything that was readily available to me, and just about every show, movie, etc. available to me in my childhood years was likely written and designed by white people (I could give a better number on that, but I admit I'm not looking to tear apart IMDB analyzing the entirety of the Nickelodeon and Disney Channel lineups). That means that most of the characters I grew up watching lived in places that at least bore a passing resemblance to my neighborhood, or attended schools that resembled the makeup of my own as a kid; the hurdles to connection on the subconscious level were lessened. Heck, let's not forget that the 80s weren't far removed, and at times overlapped with, things like the blaxploitation movement, where entire films were designed to explicitly appeal to black audiences because mainstream Hollywood faire didn't even come close to representing African Americans. Again, this has been observed in all corners of society in plenty of studies: representation matters, and it likely has an impact on getting people in under represented communities to get more involved in different fields of endeavor. Also again, we are all in agreement that it'd kick enormous ass for Hollywood to get more original with its mainstream content, but, yeah, these days that's just not in the cards, so if we want to prioritize breaking the negative feedback loop, this seems one of the most readily available paths to doing it.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,043
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 18:45:28 GMT -5
Literally nobody said that, so please, and I don't mean this in a scolding way or something jerk-ish like that, don't create strawmen even if you don't intend to. Originality would be the absolute best outcome; a Hollywood that embraces new ideas, new writers, new directors, that isn't afraid and super focus-group centric and then says "we're going to have a black/Latino/female/Asian/gay/etc. lead for this totally new and original big budget project because the idea this writer sent us is awesome." Unfortunately, in an era where studios are demanding $1 billion box office returns, new ideas are dying on the vine and the "same old, same old" keeps getting trotted out because studios feel safer that they'll actually make money. It's why it took forever to even get Deadpool out there, and even then it had a minimized budget; it had a good looking white guy (admittedly marred via makeup then a mask) as the lead, but even just the concept was considered too offbeat and risky to actually invest in beyond what Fox did...and it's a superhero movie! Everybody and their mother spends tons of money on superhero movies, yet Fox still couldn't be bothered to actually invest in a potentially refreshing take on the genre. Against such a backdrop, hoping for Hollywood to come up with new characters who break the stereotypical molds of race, gender, sexuality, etc. is a tough road to hoe. There are babysteps happening, yes, but even then it's largely with pre-existing characters in pre-existing cinematic franchises (Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Ms. Marvel, etc.). Getting something genuinely new and exciting out there in Hollywood is arguably harder than it's almost ever been since about 1960. Additionally, there's the problem of the sheer number of women/minorities/etc. who are part of the content-creating community in and around Hollywood, which many agree is a byproduct of those groups being historically ostracized in Hollywood, which creates a feedback loop where less people in those communities are even inspired to try to get into that circle in the first place. Think of how many people get into things like writing comics or movie scripts because as kids they latched onto characters they could project themselves on to; it's much easier for white dudes like me to do that given how many white male protagonists are out there, but clearly we've still got a long ways to go with people in other groups in society getting that small yet often crucial perk. It's a little like the historical example of women in engineering colleges; back around the 70s and 80s or so, there was a strong surge of women going into STEM fields in colleges around the US. However, coinciding with a history of women being told those fields "aren't women's work", there was a very, very negative reaction to those women being there, and as the years went on stories of poor treatment grew, leading to less and less women applying to take part in those fields of study. The feedback loop was created that implicitly said "women just aren't cut out for this", and thus less and less young women felt drawn to the fields (studies on stuff like that can be found at places like this: www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/). Just so, when the young black kid going to the movies doesn't feel the same connection the young white kid does to the white superhero on screen, it's a bit tougher to inspire the young black kid to want to start writing or creating new characters in the first place, as creators tend to create characters who resemble themselves in some way in the first place. Hence, there's an inherent message, albeit one that is undoubtedly unintended, that says "No, don't you see how few black characters there are now? What makes you think your ideas for character that resembles you would ever be accepted?" Basically, it's about breaking that negative feedback loop, and against the backdrop of risk averse Hollywood, it seems that changing some pre-existing characters is one of the only paths that's really open to break through to the mainstream. Again, originality would be ideal, but Hollywood isn't exactly basking in originality when it comes to big ticket movies nowadays. None of what you said wasn't untrue....but it's still lazy. One thing puzzles me, you said it was easier for you to relate to white dudes cause youre white and theres so many. So you couldnt relate as easy to black characters? Females? Maybe its just a personal me-thing then. Beause It was and still is easy for me to relate to white guys. Females. Blacks. etc. If the character is rich enough. Because odds are something of the human condition will poke out and resonate with you. Maybe just me. Just want to comment that most time,i identify myself more witht he female characters.I have more of a female mind than male one ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) probably because i was raised surrounded by girls
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 18:51:54 GMT -5
Okay - one or two films have a diverse cast. I agree, it is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's not like it's even close to being representative in terms of leads overall. Black, Asian, Hispanic - where are they in American films? Especially the last two. Like I said, you wanna talk lazy? How about the umpteenth reboot of a white character with a white lead? That's lazy, man. That takes next to nil in effort or creativity. It seems like it takes a lot more effort and a much bigger uphill battle to make an accomplished non-white actor work in a traditionally white roll. And dude, the preferred nomenclature is "Croco-Americans" I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit! Exactly. So a race swap shouldn't bother you as long as it's done well. I didn't think "as long as it's done well" needed to be added! Haha. No one's like "gosh, I hope they gender swap this character and it sucks big time!" Also, if you cherry pick your faves, that's one thing, but are you telling me you don't see a huge gap between the number of white led films and shows and female/minority led films and shows?
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,464
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Post by FinalGwen on Aug 5, 2016 18:59:42 GMT -5
Okay - one or two films have a diverse cast. I agree, it is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's not like it's even close to being representative in terms of leads overall. Black, Asian, Hispanic - where are they in American films? Especially the last two. Like I said, you wanna talk lazy? How about the umpteenth reboot of a white character with a white lead? That's lazy, man. That takes next to nil in effort or creativity. It seems like it takes a lot more effort and a much bigger uphill battle to make an accomplished non-white actor work in a traditionally white roll. And dude, the preferred nomenclature is "Croco-Americans" I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit! Deadpool's a pansexual character, so don't know if he's the best example to leap to as an example of the straight white character, even if Reynolds himself is.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,043
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 19:10:07 GMT -5
I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit! Deadpool's a pansexual character, so don't know if he's the best example to leap to as an example of the straight white character, even if Reynolds himself is. I remember someone saying he is.But he is alwasy paired with a hot girl.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 5, 2016 19:19:10 GMT -5
Marvel at least seems to be improving things cinematically now that Black Panther is on the scene, as in Civil War you had T'challa, Rhodey, and Sam there and none of them felt like tokens or stereotypes, and all had different characterizations.
Granted, Panther is the only one getting a chance to be a lead so far, but it does seem to be a positive step.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,331
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 19:44:35 GMT -5
None of what you said wasn't untrue....but it's still lazy. One thing puzzles me, you said it was easier for you to relate to white dudes cause youre white and theres so many. So you couldnt relate as easy to black characters? Females? Maybe its just a personal me-thing then. Beause It was and still is easy for me to relate to white guys. Females. Blacks. etc. If the character is rich enough. Because odds are something of the human condition will poke out and resonate with you. Maybe just me. Just want to comment that most time,i identify myself more witht he female characters.I have more of a female mind than male one ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) probably because i was raised surrounded by girls Same, despite being straight cause i'm very empathetic which tends to reside stronger with girls.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,043
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 19:45:31 GMT -5
Marvel at least seems to be improving things cinematically now that Black Panther is on the scene, as in Civil War you had T'challa, Rhodey, and Sam there and neither of them felt like tokens or stereotypes, and all had different characterizations. Granted, Panther is the only one getting a chance to be a lead so far, but it does seem to be a positive step. And on netflix you have Jessica Jones(which was a huge thing) and Luke Cage
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,331
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 19:48:44 GMT -5
I dont think Deadpool, like Hmark brought up was lazy. I think Ryan Reynolds (the dreaded heterosexual caucasian) was passionate about the peoperty and worked hard to engrain the honesty of the quality of the source material. I think theres a lot of diversity today. Hell one of my favorite shows (which has been on for years now) Modern Family, screams out "LOOK HOW DIVERSE WE ARE". But I dont watch it cause theres a gay couple, hispanics, or Whites. I watch cause its funny. But again, agree to disagree. And I'll call em CROCKS if I want to, Dag-nabbit! Exactly. So a race swap shouldn't bother you as long as it's done well. I didn't think "as long as it's done well" needed to be added! Haha. No one's like "gosh, I hope they gender swap this character and it sucks big time!" Also, if you cherry pick your faves, that's one thing, but are you telling me you don't see a huge gap between the number of white led films and shows and female/minority led films and shows? It bothers me cause it's lazy. Which is usually a bad starting point. I see a lot of gays, females, minorities in the media today. Makes sense considering we as a Nation are becomimg more and more diverse. Theres also a LOT of white people in the country. So it also makes sense theres be a lot of white people in media. Its just a slow eventual road there.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 19:56:41 GMT -5
Exactly. So a race swap shouldn't bother you as long as it's done well. I didn't think "as long as it's done well" needed to be added! Haha. No one's like "gosh, I hope they gender swap this character and it sucks big time!" Also, if you cherry pick your faves, that's one thing, but are you telling me you don't see a huge gap between the number of white led films and shows and female/minority led films and shows? It bothers me cause it's lazy. Which is usually a bad starting point. I see a lot of gays, females, minorities in the media today. Makes sense considering we as a Nation are becomimg more and more diverse. Theres also a LOT of white people in the country. So it also makes sense theres be a lot of white people in media. Its just a slow eventual road there. A slow road where? Well, agree to disagree on the lazy thing, I guess. I just can't see writing off any gender/race swap as automatically lazy when it could be some top-notch stuff if you give it half a chance and is probably much harder to get off the ground when it doesn't fit the mold of the status quo. I personally have the inverse reaction. When I see another white dude in a typical white dude roll, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, ANOTHER one? They're really phoning this stuff in now." But I'm also open to the idea that it could be different/good in a way that I hadn't anticipated.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,331
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 20:26:32 GMT -5
It bothers me cause it's lazy. Which is usually a bad starting point. I see a lot of gays, females, minorities in the media today. Makes sense considering we as a Nation are becomimg more and more diverse. Theres also a LOT of white people in the country. So it also makes sense theres be a lot of white people in media. Its just a slow eventual road there. A slow road where? Well, agree to disagree on the lazy thing, I guess. I just can't see writing off any gender/race swap as automatically lazy when it could be some top-notch stuff if you give it half a chance and is probably much harder to get off the ground when it doesn't fit the mold of the status quo. I personally have the inverse reaction. When I see another white dude in a typical white dude roll, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, ANOTHER one? They're really phoning this stuff in now." But I'm also open to the idea that it could be different/good in a way that I hadn't anticipated. Im saying culture has gotten more and more diverse in U.S, so its going to be more reflected in media. I agree it *can* be good, But I think its cheap. I'd rather it was something new. Like Sausage Party! Even if it sucks at least its a new thing. But about the white guy thing, haha, no, I dont share that sentiment.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 20:36:07 GMT -5
A slow road where? Well, agree to disagree on the lazy thing, I guess. I just can't see writing off any gender/race swap as automatically lazy when it could be some top-notch stuff if you give it half a chance and is probably much harder to get off the ground when it doesn't fit the mold of the status quo. I personally have the inverse reaction. When I see another white dude in a typical white dude roll, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, ANOTHER one? They're really phoning this stuff in now." But I'm also open to the idea that it could be different/good in a way that I hadn't anticipated. Im saying culture has gotten more and more diverse in U.S, so its going to be more reflected in media. I agree it *can* be good, But I think its cheap. I'd rather it was something new. Like Sausage Party! Even if it sucks at least its a new thing. But about the white guy thing, haha, no, I dont share that sentiment. So do you think all remakes are cheap and lazy or just ones where they swap race or gender?
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Talent Name
Ozymandius
Got fined anyway. Possibly a Moose
James Franco is the white Donald Glover
Posts: 62,614
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Post by Talent Name on Aug 5, 2016 20:45:00 GMT -5
Marvel at least seems to be improving things cinematically now that Black Panther is on the scene, as in Civil War you had T'challa, Rhodey, and Sam there and neither of them felt like tokens or stereotypes, and all had different characterizations. Granted, Panther is the only one getting a chance to be a lead so far, but it does seem to be a positive step. Nick Fury was great as well, one of the highlights of Age of Ultron along with War Machine.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,331
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 20:53:45 GMT -5
Im saying culture has gotten more and more diverse in U.S, so its going to be more reflected in media. I agree it *can* be good, But I think its cheap. I'd rather it was something new. Like Sausage Party! Even if it sucks at least its a new thing. But about the white guy thing, haha, no, I dont share that sentiment. So do you think all remakes are cheap and lazy or just ones where they swap race or gender? It's relative. Most remakes are lazy. And tend to fail because so. Most switching of race and gender are lazy and tend to fail because so. There are exceptions. Oceans Eleven and Nick Fury off the top of my head.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Aug 5, 2016 21:00:12 GMT -5
It's nice to see you people so vehemently disagree on something but still mostly play nice.
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
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Post by Reflecto on Aug 5, 2016 21:05:43 GMT -5
Why is "diversity for diversity's sake" something that some of you find annoying? Because a lot of "diversity for diversity's sake" seems like the other side of the slug. Using, for an example: The Captain America scandal from a few months ago. Captain America's race has no inherent problems. If Sam Wilson becomes the new Captain America, that's great and a natural progression for every piece of Sam Wilson's characterization, getting to take over the mantle from Steve Rogers. Same with adding Miss America and a female Captain America to the mythos, adding more groups to really show Captain America- heck, I even think having a multicultural team in SHIELD that took the name "Captain America" would probably work good. All of those things are reasonable and should be lauded. ...HOWEVER, when it looked like turning around and saying "Nope, Steve Rogers was also a HYDRA member all along- he was our version of a Nazi from the moment he came to play?" That crosses the line. Doing something like that goes further than just "every group of people deserve some heroes that they can point to", or even "if we change the race/sex of a classic white male character, that's worth it to add diversity to our roster", and comes right out and says outright "You had all the heroes for so long that quite frankly, white males don't DESERVE a hero of their own anymore...and honestly, if there are still some nagging white males running around, they either need to die like a dog or become a villain because ALL white males are villains and need to realize this". That's just the other side of the coin, and if it's a slug on one side, it's a slug on the other.
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Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,043
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 21:22:22 GMT -5
It's nice to see you people so vehemently disagree on something but still mostly play nice. *breaks expensive porcelain vase*
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Post by Crow Dust on Aug 5, 2016 21:28:04 GMT -5
Also ,one of my views which i think not many people touched upon. I thinking making a non-minority character into a minority,doesnt really help minority as people claim. Why? Because the originally succefull character was a white man. That is still what most people will remember the character by. is that the kind of representation people want? To be second rate(insert character here)? If they REALLY cared about representation,they would make new great characters that are minority.Or even make a minor character into that minority and blossom on its own great character,since there is so much room. There is no loss,people are not alienated and you get BETTER more IMPACTFUL representation. Because it's easier people are lazy and don't fight for things anymore instead they go for the cash grab and people happily defend them despite it doing nothing to help things and infact just causes more people to be upset angered over established things being changed i mean hell why make your Philadelphia when you can make Gay Dumb and Dumber and act like you did allot.
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