Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 17:05:03 GMT -5
Also ,one of my views which i think not many people touched upon.
I thinking making a non-minority character into a minority,doesnt really help minority as people claim. Why? Because the originally succefull character was a white man. That is still what most people will remember the character by. is that the kind of representation people want? To be second rate(insert character here)?
If they REALLY cared about representation,they would make new great characters that are minority.Or even make a minor character into that minority and blossom on its own great character,since there is so much room. There is no loss,people are not alienated and you get BETTER more IMPACTFUL representation.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Aug 5, 2016 17:20:27 GMT -5
Also ,one of my views which i think not many people touched upon. I thinking making a non-minority character into a minority,doesnt really help minority as people claim. Why? Because the originally succefull character was a white man. That is still what most people will remember the character by. is that the kind of representation people want? To be second rate(insert character here)? If they REALLY cared about representation,they would make new great characters that are minority.Or even make a minor character into that minority and blossom on its own great character,since there is so much room. There is no loss,people are not alienated and you get BETTER more IMPACTFUL representation. Ah yes, the 'make it yourself' idea. Which ignores both that it's a lot harder to get new characters onto the big screen (Look at how long it took superhero films to bridge the gender divide. Wonder Woman got into the Lego Movie before DC finally got their shit together, and on the other side, stuff like Captain Marvel and Black Panther got pushed even further back in the schedule as soon as one of the big name white guy characters came back into the fold) and also ignores that when people do make their own characters, they get shit on anyway. (See: The new Ghostbusters, who are all their own characters rather than analogues of the classic crew.)
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 17:24:04 GMT -5
Also ,one of my views which i think not many people touched upon. I thinking making a non-minority character into a minority,doesnt really help minority as people claim. Why? Because the originally succefull character was a white man. That is still what most people will remember the character by. is that the kind of representation people want? To be second rate(insert character here)? If they REALLY cared about representation,they would make new great characters that are minority.Or even make a minor character into that minority and blossom on its own great character,since there is so much room. There is no loss,people are not alienated and you get BETTER more IMPACTFUL representation. Ah yes, the 'make it yourself' idea. Which ignores both that it's a lot harder to get new characters onto the big screen (Look at how long it took superhero films to bridge the gender divide. Wonder Woman got into the Lego Movie before DC finally got their shit together, and on the other side, stuff like Captain Marvel and Black Panther got pushed even further back in the schedule as soon as one of the big name white guy characters came back into the fold) and also ignores that when people do make their own characters, they get shit on anyway. (See: The new Ghostbusters, who are all their own characters rather than analogues of the classic crew.) Besides the ghost busters,none of these movies really went there. And ghostbuster is still second fiddle ghostbusters,not their own thing in the end. I know it is HARDER,but it is the best way. It is like saying you shouldnt fight for something and instead take the sloppy way? I will give Magic The Gathering as an example,they fight HARD(all day all night) to introduce new minority characters.And guess what,it works because they put the effort to do so. You think the way to complete equality is EASY? f*** no. But taking a sloppy approach doesnt really help. Edit: I overlooked some things,i give that using similar concepts and name on an complete new character can be REALLY good(Ultimate Spiderman and ms.Marvel). But you have to brand it as so.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by FinalGwen on Aug 5, 2016 17:33:30 GMT -5
Ah yes, the 'make it yourself' idea. Which ignores both that it's a lot harder to get new characters onto the big screen (Look at how long it took superhero films to bridge the gender divide. Wonder Woman got into the Lego Movie before DC finally got their shit together, and on the other side, stuff like Captain Marvel and Black Panther got pushed even further back in the schedule as soon as one of the big name white guy characters came back into the fold) and also ignores that when people do make their own characters, they get shit on anyway. (See: The new Ghostbusters, who are all their own characters rather than analogues of the classic crew.) Besides the ghost busters,none of these movies really went there. And ghostbuster is still second fiddle ghostbusters,not their own thing in the end. I know it is HARDER,but it is the best way. It is like saying you shouldnt fight for something and instead take the sloppy way? I will give Magic The Gathering as an example,they fight HARD(all day all night) to introduce new minority characters.And guess what,it works because they put the effort to do so. You think the way to complete equality is EASY? f*** no. But taking a sloppy approach doesnt really help. If we're going as niche as Magic The Gathering, there's tons of indepently created stuff out there with their own characters and storytelling and we have no problem. But we're not talking niche, we're talking the mainstream, the stuff everybody out there will see. And when that mainstream only includes straight cis white guys because that's how it was in the 50s/60s/etc then it does nobody any good. And I refuse to accept that changing anything in an established franchise is automatically sloppy and worse. Marvel have built an industry out of completely changing and rewriting entire franchises. My favourite franchise, Doctor Who, constantly refreshes itself and brings in new ideas and characters while working in an established framework.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 5, 2016 17:38:29 GMT -5
Ideally, yes, Hollywood and media in general would be pumping out more new material with minority characters, female leads, etc., until we build closer to something resembling parity. Unfortunately, we live in a day and age where Hollywood and a lot of other media are terrified of taking risks, hence the over reliance in recent times on reboots/remakes/sequels/franchises of the same things over and over again (superheroes, old TV shows, etc.). Given that we're stuck in that creative rut, where is there going to be space for more original characters who don't fit into the "white male lead" paradigm? Black Panther is finally going to break out soon (not that he's a brand new character or anything), but there's still miles to go on this, and in the current climate it's going to happen in an excruciatingly slow manner, so sadly it's just not realistic. However, there's a potential way to fight that: inspire more women, minorities, etc. to get involved in producing media in the first place, to become more of the content creators out there that publishers and studios have to pay attention to. How do we accomplish that? Well...again, by increasing diversity and representation in mass media in the first place, so more people of different social groups can say "I enjoyed seeing somebody who looked/acted/sounded more like me, I'd like to get involved in the creative process" instead of creating an atmosphere where they may feel like outsiders. No, it absolutely is not. Also, it isn't "two wrongs", because only one of those things is a "wrong". To equate the two is to erase history and culture and pretend that we're all starting off a blank slate. Yes it is. Either way, you're risking alienating people when there is a better alternative. You're wrong. No, I'm not. Try again.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 17:46:21 GMT -5
alright,i get the argument "baby steps". I understand,i can't completely agree with it,but i can admit I can be wrong.
And i understand that Hollywood being afraid is also something that hinders new fresh takes.But proving then wrong is exactly how you achieve it.
Honestly,in a perfect world there would be more movies that come from somewhere else besides Hollywood.Now that would be cool.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 5, 2016 17:47:14 GMT -5
As I've gotten older, the idea of getting up in arms over changing fictional characters has become more and more silly to me; particularly since I create my own shit now.
By that I mean, change is fine. If you can tell a good story with the change, awesome
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 17:52:16 GMT -5
I tuned out for a bit but is one side really arguing: "f*** originality. Too hard. To promote diversity we should change established characters". Really, y'all?
It works sometimes, like Miles Morales but its lazy. As a minority I don't want "diversity". I want good characters. I dont care if its male, female, red, white, black or green.
Somehow...that makes me...anti-diversity?...
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Big Poppa Pumpkin
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Post by Big Poppa Pumpkin on Aug 5, 2016 17:53:42 GMT -5
how about an all-dog Bond film
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 17:57:31 GMT -5
how about an all-dog Bond film No mister bond,i want you to catch. *proceeds to chase own tail* *buckets of cash*
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 17:57:56 GMT -5
I tuned out for a bit but is one side really arguing: "f*** originality. Too hard. To promote diversity we should change established characters". Really, y'all? It works sometimes, like Miles Morales but its lazy. As a minority I don't want "diversity". I want good characters. I dont care if its male, female, red, white, black or green. Somehow...that makes me...anti-diversity?... No one is saying "f*** originality." In fact, it's just the opposite. I'm not sure which "side" you're reading, but to me if the best someone can do for a talking point is "we can't change it because that's the way it was before!" - that's saying "f*** originality" to me.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 17:58:01 GMT -5
how about an all-dog Bond film Names Dog. James Dog. I've come to chase octopussy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 17:58:29 GMT -5
how about an all-dog Bond film No mister bond,i want you to catch. *proceeds to chase own tail* *buckets of cash* Come, come Mr Bond, you love the smell of butts just as much as I do.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 5, 2016 17:58:49 GMT -5
I tuned out for a bit but is one side really arguing: "f*** originality. Too hard. To promote diversity we should change established characters". Really, y'all? It works sometimes, like Miles Morales but its lazy. As a minority I don't want "diversity". I want good characters. I dont care if its male, female, red, white, black or green. Somehow...that makes me...anti-diversity?... No one is saying "f*** originality." In fact, it's just the opposite. I'm not sure which "side" you're reading, but to me if the best someone can do for a talking point is "we can't change it because that's the way it was before!" - that's saying "f*** originality" to me. Just to remark that was nowhere as close as i said.Not sure if it is about me
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 17:59:04 GMT -5
I tuned out for a bit but is one side really arguing: "f*** originality. Too hard. To promote diversity we should change established characters". Really, y'all? It works sometimes, like Miles Morales but its lazy. As a minority I don't want "diversity". I want good characters. I dont care if its male, female, red, white, black or green. Somehow...that makes me...anti-diversity?... No one is saying "f*** originality." In fact, it's just the opposite. I'm not sure which "side" you're reading, but to me if the best someone can do for a talking point is "we can't change it because that's the way it was before!" - that's saying "f*** originality" to me. Change what, though? Theres a lot of minorities, gays, women, whites, aliens, animals in all of media.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 18:01:37 GMT -5
No one is saying "f*** originality." In fact, it's just the opposite. I'm not sure which "side" you're reading, but to me if the best someone can do for a talking point is "we can't change it because that's the way it was before!" - that's saying "f*** originality" to me. Change what, though? Theres a lot of minorities, gays, women, whites, aliens, animals in all of media. I'm talking about people who complain about changing the race/gender of leads in remakes. But to your point - there really isn't "a lot" of variety when it comes to the LEADS of film and television.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 18:02:26 GMT -5
No one is saying "f*** originality." In fact, it's just the opposite. I'm not sure which "side" you're reading, but to me if the best someone can do for a talking point is "we can't change it because that's the way it was before!" - that's saying "f*** originality" to me. Just to remark that was nowhere as close as i said.Not sure if it is about me Just speaking generally.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Aug 5, 2016 18:11:33 GMT -5
Change what, though? Theres a lot of minorities, gays, women, whites, aliens, animals in all of media. I'm talking about people who complain about changing the race/gender of leads in remakes. But to your point - there really isn't "a lot" of variety when it comes to the LEADS of film and television. I just think its cheap. Its lazy. Its not original. If you want to achieve "diversity" by such a lazy, cheap way, their perogative I 'spose. It aint exactly failsafe as ghostbusters proved. And as of August 2016, I respectfully disgree, I think there is. Biggest movie of the weekend is diverse AF. Its even got a Crock for the misrepresented Crococdile community. But again, as a minority, I really dont care if the character is a white straight male or a gay trans alien, as much as im concerned with the quality of the character.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 5, 2016 18:15:16 GMT -5
I tuned out for a bit but is one side really arguing: "f*** originality. Too hard. To promote diversity we should change established characters". Really, y'all? It works sometimes, like Miles Morales but its lazy. As a minority I don't want "diversity". I want good characters. I dont care if its male, female, red, white, black or green. Somehow...that makes me...anti-diversity?... Literally nobody said that, so please, and I don't mean this in a scolding way or something jerk-ish like that, don't create strawmen even if you don't intend to. Originality would be the absolute best outcome; a Hollywood that embraces new ideas, new writers, new directors, that isn't afraid and super focus-group centric and then says "we're going to have a black/Latino/female/Asian/gay/etc. lead for this totally new and original big budget project because the idea this writer sent us is awesome." Unfortunately, in an era where studios are demanding $1 billion box office returns, new ideas are dying on the vine and the "same old, same old" keeps getting trotted out because studios feel safer that they'll actually make money. It's why it took forever to even get Deadpool out there, and even then it had a minimized budget; it had a good looking white guy (admittedly marred via makeup then a mask) as the lead, but even just the concept was considered too offbeat and risky to actually invest in beyond what Fox did...and it's a superhero movie! Everybody and their mother spends tons of money on superhero movies, yet Fox still couldn't be bothered to actually invest in a potentially refreshing take on the genre. Against such a backdrop, hoping for Hollywood to come up with new characters who break the stereotypical molds of race, gender, sexuality, etc. is a tough road to hoe. There are babysteps happening, yes, but even then it's largely with pre-existing characters in pre-existing cinematic franchises (Wonder Woman, Black Panther, Ms. Marvel, etc.). Getting something genuinely new and exciting out there in Hollywood is arguably harder than it's almost ever been since about 1960. Additionally, there's the problem of the sheer number of women/minorities/etc. who are part of the content-creating community in and around Hollywood, which many agree is a byproduct of those groups being historically ostracized in Hollywood, which creates a feedback loop where less people in those communities are even inspired to try to get into that circle in the first place. Think of how many people get into things like writing comics or movie scripts because as kids they latched onto characters they could project themselves on to; it's much easier for white dudes like me to do that given how many white male protagonists are out there, but clearly we've still got a long ways to go with people in other groups in society getting that small yet often crucial perk. It's a little like the historical example of women in engineering colleges; back around the 70s and 80s or so, there was a strong surge of women going into STEM fields in colleges around the US. However, coinciding with a history of women being told those fields "aren't women's work", there was a very, very negative reaction to those women being there, and as the years went on stories of poor treatment grew, leading to less and less women applying to take part in those fields of study. The feedback loop was created that implicitly said "women just aren't cut out for this", and thus less and less young women felt drawn to the fields (studies on stuff like that can be found at places like this: www.aauw.org/research/why-so-few/). Just so, when the young black kid going to the movies doesn't feel the same connection the young white kid does to the white superhero on screen, it's a bit tougher to inspire the young black kid to want to start writing or creating new characters in the first place, as creators tend to create characters who resemble themselves in some way in the first place. Hence, there's an inherent message, albeit one that is undoubtedly unintended, that says "No, don't you see how few black characters there are now? What makes you think your ideas for character that resembles you would ever be accepted?" Basically, it's about breaking that negative feedback loop, and against the backdrop of risk averse Hollywood, it seems that changing some pre-existing characters is one of the only paths that's really open to break through to the mainstream. Again, originality would be ideal, but Hollywood isn't exactly basking in originality when it comes to big ticket movies nowadays.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2016 18:20:05 GMT -5
I'm talking about people who complain about changing the race/gender of leads in remakes. But to your point - there really isn't "a lot" of variety when it comes to the LEADS of film and television. I just think its cheap. Its lazy. Its not original. If you want to achieve "diversity" by such a lazy, cheap way, their perogative I 'spose. It aint exactlt failsafe as ghostbusters proved. And as of August 2016, I respectfully disgree, I think there is. Biggest movie of the weekend is diverse AF. Its even got a Crock for the misrepresented Crococdile community. But again, as a minority, I really dont care if the character is a white straight male or a gay trans alien, as much as im concerned with the quality of the character. Okay - one or two films have a diverse cast. I agree, it is much better than it was 5-10 years ago, but it's not like it's even close to being representative in terms of leads overall. Black, Asian, Hispanic - where are they in American films? Especially the last two. Like I said, you wanna talk lazy? How about the umpteenth reboot of a white character with a white lead? That's lazy, man. That takes next to nil in effort or creativity. It seems like it takes a lot more effort and a much bigger uphill battle to make an accomplished non-white actor work in a traditionally white roll. And dude, the preferred nomenclature is "Croco-Americans"
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