魔界5号
Hank Scorpio
No. 1 FAN Poster You Want To Hug
Posts: 6,331
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Post by 魔界5号 on Dec 13, 2016 16:04:43 GMT -5
I have the same feelings about Steamboat vs Savage that I do about Tiger Mask vs Kuniaki Kobayashi. They don't hold up againstbtoday's matches as well as they once did, but given the time that they took place, they were groundbreaking.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Dec 13, 2016 16:55:29 GMT -5
Eddie Guerro was incredibly talented and entertaining, but his status as one of the best of all time is an exaggeration. He was great, but if he weren't dead, he wouldn't be talked about as much today. I'd like to add my two cents; much of his WWE run was awful where he played almost a stereotypical stock hispanic character; and wasn't pushed until he was so full of roids that he was a shell of his former self in the ring.
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Dec 13, 2016 17:28:16 GMT -5
Eddie Guerro was incredibly talented and entertaining, but his status as one of the best of all time is an exaggeration. He was great, but if he weren't dead, he wouldn't be talked about as much today. I'd like to add my two cents; much of his WWE run was awful where he played almost a stereotypical stock hispanic character; and wasn't pushed until he was so full of roids that he was a shell of his former self in the ring. This is a good point. Eddie was a very good wrestler, but if you strip away the sentimentality surrounding his death and actually describe his character, it's awkward in retrospect. Try explaining it to a casual fan: "So who's this Eddie Guerrero guy they keep talking about, and what was he like?" "Oh, man, he was one of the all-time greats! He was a Mexican wrestler, and on screen he played a character who rode a low-rider into the arena, was passionate and had a fiery temper, and who was notorious for being a sneaky cheater who lied and stole, and...uh...oh..."
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tms
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,901
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Post by tms on Dec 13, 2016 18:04:07 GMT -5
Sentimentality has nothing to do with my opinion that Eddie Guerrero was at least as good as HBK in the ring. If you're only limiting his body of work to his WWE run, you're really doing yourself a disservice. He was a phenomenal athlete in his prime who wrestled convincingly in any style, and the velocity he snapped his moves off with was darn near Benoit-level with much more versatility in his repertoire.
It annoys me more than it should when people insist he's only fondly remembered or overrated because he's dead. At his peak he really was that good, and this isn't even getting into his charisma and ability to play face or heel.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 14, 2016 4:10:08 GMT -5
If Guerrero, Benoit, Malenko and Jericho had gone straight from ECW to the WWF, they would have ended up suffering the same fates as Furnas and Lafon, or Taka Michinoku, Essa Rios and Funaki. They'd be footnotes in wrestling history, either remembered as boring mechanics or talented guys who didn't have what it takes to get over in a major American promotion. People don't appreciate the faith WCW showed in these guys and the opportunities they were given, not being put over Hulk Hogan doesn't mean they were horribly misused.
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Post by sfvega on Dec 14, 2016 7:05:43 GMT -5
I didn't think WWF Steve Austin was that good. They built him well and he had some good feuds, but overall he was a ton of style over substance. His mic work was weighted by being the poster boy for Vince's edgier product. He eventually just came out, stunned guys, gave the bird, and chugged roughly 4 oz of foam. And people ate it up for years. And good for him, but it really didn't take for me. His ECW promos seemed to show more depth and flexibility than his character in WWF.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 15, 2016 13:50:32 GMT -5
I have the same feelings about Steamboat vs Savage that I do about Tiger Mask vs Kuniaki Kobayashi. They don't hold up againstbtoday's matches as well as they once did, but given the time that they took place, they were groundbreaking. There are some matches from the 80's and early 90's I think are ahead of their time. Savage/Steamboat is one, the spots look old school through a 2016 lens, but the pacing and drama stands out in the context of that era. That's one reason why I love that Misawa/Tsuruta match from 1990 so much, watching it feels like AJ vs. Cena with the near falls and how the moves are countered. - I don't agree with Cornette's "funny don't draw money" theory. It should be "funny by itself don't draw money". A Santino can't be a top guy, no. But so many top guys were both badass and funny. Like Ric Flair, a serious character on paper, but his interviews and selling were so over the top it's hard not to laugh sometimes. Same with Styles today, Jericho, or even Hogan and Savage. Even the New Day, they're wacky as hell, but they know how to win. The best idea is a balance of both elements.
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Post by ellisdee on Dec 15, 2016 18:47:24 GMT -5
I didn't think WWF Steve Austin was that good. They built him well and he had some good feuds, but overall he was a ton of style over substance. His mic work was weighted by being the poster boy for Vince's edgier product. He eventually just came out, stunned guys, gave the bird, and chugged roughly 4 oz of foam. And people ate it up for years. And good for him, but it really didn't take for me. His ECW promos seemed to show more depth and flexibility than his character in WWF. On a related note, I much prefer 96/97 Stone Cold and agree that his character became very routine and dull after a while.
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Post by "Playboy" Don Douglas on Dec 15, 2016 19:06:22 GMT -5
My issue with Steamboat vs Savage isn't looking at it from a modern perspective. I think I was four years old when it happened.
I think my problem with it is the same problem I have with a lot of current matches: I don't buy into the near falls. It just feels like a bunch of moves followed by a bunch of two counts, then one of them finally gets a 3.
Another one for me - the Bret vs Owen cage match. I start this one by saying that I need to watch it again, as it's been a long time since I saw it and my opinion may have changed.
But as of the last time I saw it, I wasn't impressed and felt it was mostly just two guys running and jumping onto the side of the cage.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,202
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 15, 2016 19:42:06 GMT -5
I have the same feelings about Steamboat vs Savage that I do about Tiger Mask vs Kuniaki Kobayashi. They don't hold up againstbtoday's matches as well as they once did, but given the time that they took place, they were groundbreaking. There are some matches from the 80's and early 90's I think are ahead of their time. Savage/Steamboat is one, the spots look old school through a 2016 lens, but the pacing and drama stands out in the context of that era. That's one reason why I love that Misawa/Tsuruta match from 1990 so much, watching it feels like AJ vs. Cena with the near falls and how the moves are countered. - I don't agree with Cornette's "funny don't draw money" theory. It should be "funny by itself don't draw money". A Santino can't be a top guy, no. But so many top guys were both badass and funny. Like Ric Flair, a serious character on paper, but his interviews and selling were so over the top it's hard not to laugh sometimes. Same with Styles today, Jericho, or even Hogan and Savage. Even the New Day, they're wacky as hell, but they know how to win. The best idea is a balance of both elements. Even then, it depends, when Santino was the last guy in the Rumble, they could have run with it, the crowds were totally on his side, if he'd actualy won, they could have built him up to a proper main eventer with a humerous slant, as you say, Ric Flair wasn't totally serious, Daniel Bryan wasn't totally serious and he was one of the biggest phenomenons since the attitude era.
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Post by sfvega on Dec 16, 2016 1:23:41 GMT -5
I didn't think WWF Steve Austin was that good. They built him well and he had some good feuds, but overall he was a ton of style over substance. His mic work was weighted by being the poster boy for Vince's edgier product. He eventually just came out, stunned guys, gave the bird, and chugged roughly 4 oz of foam. And people ate it up for years. And good for him, but it really didn't take for me. His ECW promos seemed to show more depth and flexibility than his character in WWF. On a related note, I much prefer 96/97 Stone Cold and agree that his character became very routine and dull after a while. Yes, his early-WWF but post-Ringmaster stuff was good, but then they dumbed him down for the lowest common denominator. Which, from a business standpoint, was a great play because he made them truckloads of cash. But from a critical standpoint, his character was arguably as shallow as some of the lesser-used lower card guys.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 22, 2016 16:30:00 GMT -5
I think pro wrestling as a whole is just amazing and great. Granted, there's been angles and gimmicks I thought were offensive or stupid, some missed chances, and the business is very seedy. But it's drowned out by all of the memorable personalities, great matches and athletic displays, and funny and/or emotional moments that make crowds erupt.
It's hard for me to feel too cynical about it. I enjoy learning about how everything works but I have my most fun just being a mark.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,202
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 22, 2016 16:38:27 GMT -5
I think pro wrestling as a whole is just amazing and great. Granted, there's been angles and gimmicks I thought were offensive or stupid, some missed chances, and the business is very seedy. But it's drowned out by all of the memorable personalities, great matches and athletic displays, and funny and/or emotional moments that make crowds erupt. It's hard for me to feel too cynical about it. I enjoy learning about how everything works but I have my most fun just being a mark. At the end of the day, we're watching people combine acting, stunt work, bodybuilding and gymnastics in one go. Pro wrestlers as overall talents are supremely underrated.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 22, 2016 16:43:11 GMT -5
I think pro wrestling as a whole is just amazing and great. Granted, there's been angles and gimmicks I thought were offensive or stupid, some missed chances, and the business is very seedy. But it's drowned out by all of the memorable personalities, great matches and athletic displays, and funny and/or emotional moments that make crowds erupt. It's hard for me to feel too cynical about it. I enjoy learning about how everything works but I have my most fun just being a mark. At the end of the day, we're watching people combine acting, stunt work, bodybuilding and gymnastics in one go. Pro wrestlers as overall talents are supremely underrated. I always felt that was the case too, and it also requires a threshold for pain. It's not surprising so many have crossed over (with varying results) to film/stage acting.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2016 8:39:41 GMT -5
My take looking at Steamboat vs. Savage: there was too much wrestling from Ricky. Steamboat should have tried to kill the guy that crushed his throat.
I know I would.
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Post by chronocross on Dec 23, 2016 10:24:31 GMT -5
My take looking at Steamboat vs. Savage: there was too much wrestling from Ricky. Steamboat should have tried to kill the guy that crushed his throat. I know I would. Surprisingly he kept it within the rules for the most part, on the house shows right after the neck injury during their bouts, Steamboat would get DQed for hitting the referee or trying to use the ring bell on Randy.
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Post by Session Moth is over on Dec 23, 2016 15:04:30 GMT -5
I can't stand Lucha Underground.
205 Live and the CW division is not as bad as people make it out to be. Yeah some of the random tag matches on Raw were borong and pointless but I have enjoyed the whole Perkins/Kendrick/Swan storyline and I'm really interested in where they go with Neville.
I'm not sure if it's a shocking opinion to have but Kendrick has been one of the top 5 performers in WWE this year.
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
Chi-Town!!!
Posts: 2,386
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Post by Ozman on Dec 24, 2016 2:15:56 GMT -5
I think pro wrestling as a whole is just amazing and great. Granted, there's been angles and gimmicks I thought were offensive or stupid, some missed chances, and the business is very seedy. But it's drowned out by all of the memorable personalities, great matches and athletic displays, and funny and/or emotional moments that make crowds erupt. It's hard for me to feel too cynical about it. I enjoy learning about how everything works but I have my most fun just being a mark. I stopped getting worked up over pro wrestling many, many years ago. I prefer focusing on the things I enjoy about the business, instead of constantly complaining about what I don't enjoy. At the end of the day, it's just entertainment, and doesn't affect my day to day life.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,372
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 24, 2016 2:25:47 GMT -5
Nepotism is so closely tied into wrestling, I really don't get that upset about it anymore, provided they're good.
Bear in mind, Terry Funk and Dory Funk, Jr. got their start in their father's territory.
When people rail on about second, third, etc, generation stars being a bad thing or all duds, I have to wonder if they are aware they're including Ted DiBiase, Jake Roberts, Terry Funk, and many more in that heap of supposed shit, in addition to more obvious ones such as Goldust, The Rock, Bret and Owen, and others who obviously justified their paycheck.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 24, 2016 8:33:27 GMT -5
Nepotism is so closely tied into wrestling, I really don't get that upset about it anymore, provided they're good. Bear in mind, Terry Funk and Dory Funk, Jr. got their start in their father's territory. When people rail on about second, third, etc, generation stars being a bad thing or all duds, I have to wonder if they are aware they're including Ted DiBiase, Jake Roberts, Terry Funk, and many more in that heap of supposed shit, in addition to more obvious ones such as Goldust, The Rock, Bret and Owen, and others who obviously justified their paycheck. Most of those names had nearly a decade of experience under their belt before they got anywhere near a title in the WWF, had worked for WCW for a long stretch or had travelled the world to perfect their craft so had more experience than non legacy names. The Rock was a once in a life time find for the WWE and every other time they've tried to push someone to the moon with very little experience, it just hasn't worked, they've effectively hung a generation of kids out to dry because they built up expectations they simply don't have the experience needed to fulfil, by the time they've started to find themselves the crowds are sick of them and management have newer, shinier toys. In the modern era, 'second/third generation' has become synonymous with 'Pushed before they're ready' in the eyes of the fans. Ted Jr. wasn't ready, Roman wasn't ready, Cody wasn't ready, Joe Hennig wasn't ready, Randy Orton wasn't ready, they were bog standard developmental guys with higher expectations from the audience because of who they're related to, it's not their fault, but here we are.
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