Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 18:07:06 GMT -5
Not only she managed to use the force and fight with a lightsaber on her own, but she can also pilot the Falcon on her first try and know way more about it than the original owner? She knows more about it than Lando Calrissian?
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Dec 4, 2016 18:07:13 GMT -5
No I'm serious and it wasn't just me most of my female friends who are into star wars do not like her at all. Compare it to Leia in all three OT films (So..we're going back more than 30 years ago when we weren't as "diverse" and "respectful of women") Leia is a much stronger, independent and fleshed out character in each of those films through character traits. Not the force. Just how her character was fleshed out, far more of a strong female role than Rey in TFA. I honestly think a lot of it was writing and Daisy Ridley. Girl seems like a sweetheart but I felt a lot missing from her performance. Exactly...if we look at it from a female empowerment stance...Leia has always been a good role model.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Dec 4, 2016 18:08:30 GMT -5
Compare it to Leia in all three OT films (So..we're going back more than 30 years ago when we weren't as "diverse" and "respectful of women") Leia is a much stronger, independent and fleshed out character in each of those films through character traits. Not the force. Just how her character was fleshed out, far more of a strong female role than Rey in TFA. I honestly think a lot of it was writing and Daisy Ridley. Girl seems like a sweetheart but I felt a lot missing from her performance. Exactly...if we look at it from a female empowerment stance...Leia has always been a good role model. She kissed her own brother!
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Dec 4, 2016 18:11:03 GMT -5
Exactly...if we look at it from a female empowerment stance...Leia has always been a good role model. She kissed her own brother! It's not like she freaking knew!(though that fact has always freaked me out because didn't Lucus have them all planned out beforehand?)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 18:12:38 GMT -5
She kissed her own brother! It's not like she freaking knew!(though that fact has always freaked me out because didn't Lucus have them all planned out beforehand?) He didn't. Though like much of the lore of how Star Wars was created gets changed around, the original screenplay for Empire has a scene where the twin sister is mentioned and she's named Nellith.
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on Dec 4, 2016 18:14:13 GMT -5
Most movies don't actually show the time, effort, and failure involved when it comes to work and training to be good at something. It's easier to simply write people who are born 'special' than actually show the labour involved to be successful. All of the Star Wars films suffer from this trope, which is to say that it's always been bullshit. But to say that it's *more* bullshit in TFA with Rey because we see Luke (only) train for a total of 5 minutes in the OT, yeah, that sounds like nonsense to me.
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Shai
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Post by Shai on Dec 4, 2016 18:14:30 GMT -5
It's not like she freaking knew!(though that fact has always freaked me out because didn't Lucus have them all planned out beforehand?) He didn't. Okay that actually makes me feel less icky about it.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 4, 2016 18:15:26 GMT -5
It's not like she freaking knew!(though that fact has always freaked me out because didn't Lucus have them all planned out beforehand?) He didn't. Yep, hell originally Anakin and Vader WERE meant to be different people. I think He made that change sometime in the middle of filming Empire.
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Shai
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Shai on Dec 4, 2016 18:16:01 GMT -5
Most movies don't actually show the time, effort, and failure involved when it comes to work and training to be good at something. It's easier to simply write people who are born 'special' than actually show the labour involved to be successful. All of the Star Wars films suffer from this trope, which is to say that it's always been bullshit. But to say that it's *more* bullshit in TFA with Rey because we see Luke (only) train for a total of 5 minutes in the OT, yeah, that sounds like nonsense to me. That's why for as corny as they may seem I always loved 80's training montages...
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Shai
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Shai on Dec 4, 2016 18:17:02 GMT -5
Yep, hell originally Anakin and Vader WERE meant to be different people. I think He made that change sometime in the middle of filming Empire. Damn..I didn't know that...
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 4, 2016 18:21:57 GMT -5
The term "diversity " isn't always inherently a corporation buzzword, it's a truly postitive thing that does real good. There's nothing pandering about how Rey was presented or being marketed. She was treated as heroically as a male character would have been regardless of her gender, and it was refreshing.
And if someone finds the concept of an inclusive band of heroes fighting a villainous force that more or less represents the concept of white supremacy to somehow be bothersome, then the real problem is with that specific person, not the filmmakers. If that's somehow an "agenda", then I'm all for it.
What happened with Ghostbusters was an outlier, exasperated by the studio essentially feeding the sentiments of the trolls that actually did have a problem with the female leads.
Seriously, I can't believe people actually have a problem with this. There's a lot of posts in this thread I find very uncomfortable.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 4, 2016 18:22:17 GMT -5
Yep, hell originally Anakin and Vader WERE meant to be different people. I think He made that change sometime in the middle of filming Empire. Damn..I didn't know that... I forget when he made the change exactly but originally what Ben said about Vader killing Anakin was meant to be literal. as an Early draft of Empire had Anakin appear to Luke as a blue glowy to talk to him about his sister who was not Leia.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Dec 4, 2016 18:25:50 GMT -5
The "structural racism and sexism" is worse literally everywhere else in the world but I won't go down that rabbithole. Especially today..id rather see stories that involve humans, and not focus on specific demos rather than others but hey, "diversity". Also the Box Office showed there's danger in going too extreme with a "feminist" approach in Ghostbusters. And that's what the OP brought up as a complaint about TFA. Diversity and catering doesn't bring in money, a good story, characters, an entertaining appeal and word of mouth does. Nothing of what you just said makes this recent push for more representation in media a bad thing. The vast majority of movies revolve around humans. It's just that recently, studios have started to realize that different kinds of people deserve to have their stories told and also be showcased in a wider variety of roles, as opposed to stereotypes of the past. That's not catering, that's reflecting how the world actually is. And by and large, Hollywood had failed to realize that for decades, as it was as prejudiced as society was then. Now, NOW some progress in the right direction is actually occurring. It's misrepresentation still when it's not en entire palette as opposed to pushing back a certain demo that may have been over shown in the "stereotypes of the past". Diversity is for all. Not just for those that have been misrepresented. It should be all or none. Which, IMO, successful pieces of art do, and ones like Ghostbusters misfire on. And to bring up your point earlier about how "homogenity in media is boring", I completely disagree. Casablanca was mainly white dudes and I find it enthralling. As do I with Boyz n the Hood, which is mainly black dudes. And telenovelas which are all Hispanic ...so nah, not really. And your point about Hollywood having it "wrong" for decades seems to contradict the other point of discussion that shows Leia is a far stronger written female character than Rey.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,306
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Post by Fade on Dec 4, 2016 18:27:32 GMT -5
It's not like she freaking knew!(though that fact has always freaked me out because didn't Lucus have them all planned out beforehand?) He didn't. Though like much of the lore of how Star Wars was created gets changed around, the original screenplay for Empire has a scene where the twin sister is mentioned and she's named Nellith. And there's the deleted scene in ESB where Luke goes in for the kiss and is totally DTF with Leia. Lucas is totally lying and pulled the Leia is his sister bit as a clutch move.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 4, 2016 18:27:49 GMT -5
Snoke didn't seem to give a shit about Starkiller base. I'm not convinced he really had much to do with it. My theory is that it was "old tech" that was rediscovered. The idea gains traction is you follow The Old Republic stuff. or if you don't want to get into old Rakata tech, it might have been one of Palps old test installations.
So maybe Snoke isn't all "Oh shit I lost my superbase I spend all my drug money on", it's more "that cool thing we found blew up and I lost some troops. Oh well, still smoked the New Republic right in the face with it"
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 4, 2016 18:28:37 GMT -5
Just because your protagonist has a vagina, doesn't mean there's a feminist agenda.
Just means she doesn't have a weiner.
We don't know Rey's full story yet. Obviously she's force sensitive. If she's of the Skywalker or Kenobi bloodline, she's even more of 'the chosen one'. That may be a tired trope in general; and that's valid, but her being female or not shouldn't be a factor.
As for the rest? Eh, I liked it a lot. It was a lot of fun and felt Star Wars-y. No movie is perfect. But I legitimately don't care if someone does/does not like a film I enjoy.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 4, 2016 18:28:39 GMT -5
Nothing of what you just said makes this recent push for more representation in media a bad thing. The vast majority of movies revolve around humans. It's just that recently, studios have started to realize that different kinds of people deserve to have their stories told and also be showcased in a wider variety of roles, as opposed to stereotypes of the past. That's not catering, that's reflecting how the world actually is. And by and large, Hollywood had failed to realize that for decades, as it was as prejudiced as society was then. Now, NOW some progress in the right direction is actually occurring. It's misrepresentation still when it's not en entire palette as opposed to pushing back a certain demo that may have been over shown in the "stereotypes of the past". Diversity is for all. Not just for those that have been misrepresented. It should be all or none. Which, IMO, successful pieces of art do, and ones like Ghostbusters misfire on. And to bring up your point earlier about how "homogenity in media is boring", I completely disagree. Casablanca was mainly white dudes and I find it enthralling. As do I with Boyz n the Hood, which is mainly black dudes. And telenovelas which are all Hispanic ...so nah, not really. And your point about Hollywood having it "wrong" for decades seems to contradict the other point of discussion that shows Leia is a far stronger written female character than Rey. I never once said that Rey was necessarily written stronger than Leia, so I've contradicted nothing. For the record, I found both characters to be compelling in their own ways. Also, saying "diversity is for all, not just those misrepresented " makes zero sense. The fact that many people have been misrepresented in the first place IS the reason why this recent push for diversity and inclusion has become so important.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 4, 2016 18:30:56 GMT -5
As far as the enemies being mostly white males. Guys, they're Nazis. Empire/First Order whatever, they're Nazis and always have been. They're got f***in STORMTROOPERS y'all.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,306
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Post by Fade on Dec 4, 2016 18:32:17 GMT -5
It's misrepresentation still when it's not en entire palette as opposed to pushing back a certain demo that may have been over shown in the "stereotypes of the past". Diversity is for all. Not just for those that have been misrepresented. It should be all or none. Which, IMO, successful pieces of art do, and ones like Ghostbusters misfire on. And to bring up your point earlier about how "homogenity in media is boring", I completely disagree. Casablanca was mainly white dudes and I find it enthralling. As do I with Boyz n the Hood, which is mainly black dudes. And telenovelas which are all Hispanic ...so nah, not really. And your point about Hollywood having it "wrong" for decades seems to contradict the other point of discussion that shows Leia is a far stronger written female character than Rey. I never once said that Rey was necessarily written stronger than Leia, so I've contradicted nothing. For the record, I found both characters to be compelling in their own ways. You're saying Hollywood hasn't learned its lesson for decades, I'm assuming in terms of women and minorities, but than how's it work Leias standing up to even her own rescuers and being independent in the 70s and Rey comes off as more shallow in 2015? And there's nothing to feel uncomfortable in this thread, no ones said anything wrong or broken any rules, your logic just doesn't seem to make sense.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 4, 2016 18:37:25 GMT -5
I never once said that Rey was necessarily written stronger than Leia, so I've contradicted nothing. For the record, I found both characters to be compelling in their own ways. You're saying Hollywood hasn't learned its lesson for decades, I'm assuming in terms of women and minorities, but than how's it work Leias standing up to even her own rescuers and being independent in the 70s and Rey comes off as more shallow in 2015? And there's nothing to feel uncomfortable in this thread, no ones said anything wrong or broken any rules, your logic just doesn't seem to make sense. MY logic doesn't make sense? I'm not the one arguing that Star Wars is trying to push a harmful "feminist agenda " in their recent films. That's what I find uncomfortable.
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