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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 15, 2016 19:36:21 GMT -5
This is so accurate it's scary. Do you think (I certainly do) that Gedo gets away with plenty of bad booking?
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Post by 魔界5号 on Dec 15, 2016 19:57:01 GMT -5
Yes. People overlook a lot of shit that Gedo does just because it happens in precious New Japan. Whereas if it was in WWE they'd shit all over it because it's cool to do that.
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Post by Starshine on Dec 15, 2016 20:10:52 GMT -5
Well he's also booking for a Japanese crowd. You can't really use a North American promotion as a comparison of what historically works and what doesn't. You can argue it might affect their North American expansion plans, but it's primarily Japan first, everyone else second.
There's a lot of booking choices in NJ I don't agree with. But I can't sit here and tell you they're wrong when (as far as I can tell) they're still making profits regardless of my opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 16, 2016 7:51:55 GMT -5
John Cena is, by far, WWE's top ticket draw (among full timers at least) and merch mover. Should people should be outraged every time Cena isn't in the main event of Wrestlemania? The IWGP Intercontinental title headlines every show it's defended on except Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion, to compare it to the WWE Intercontinental title is a false equivalency. Regardless of what stables they are in, Okada and Omega are both stars in Japan, it's a completely fresh match up and will probably be a strong match of the year contender. There's nothing wrong with it being the main event.
I know this place has a strong anti-Gedo undercurrent and I look forward to having multiple people tell me I'm objectively wrong for not hating the booking but this is such ridiculous criticism. Even the Guerrillas of Destiny stuff to a lesser degree since it appears that team is starting to click.
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 16, 2016 8:46:06 GMT -5
Gedo isn't perfect, not by a long shot, but I am maybe more patient with some of his stuff because he isn't burning the place to the ground like Inoki very nearly did. He started the company to begin with, but he damn near killed it by being obsessed with MMA to the detriment of his product and the credibility of his wrestlers. Next to him near his end, Gedo is the son of Bill Watts, Paul Heyman, and Dutch Mantell's combined seed planted in that Akebono egg from HUSTLE.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 16, 2016 9:52:01 GMT -5
I think having the GoD in the finals is totally fine. You may disagree with their push and they wouldn't be my top choice, but if you are going to have a tournament with the champions involved (which is the tradition), having the champions lose in the finals both keeps them strong as they went nearly undefeated in their block while also establishing proven challengers for the Toyko Dome show.
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Post by corndog on Dec 16, 2016 11:43:32 GMT -5
Pretty sure Omega's merch is easily in the top five, probably #2 right behind Los Ingobernables. As far as top merch guys fighting for the IC title, Cena was US champion for a while, and I would say at this point Tanahashi and Cena's booking mirrors each other. Also, the IWGP IC title is ten times more prestigious than the WWE IC title. I will say Naito should in the title match and Gedo's hard on for Okada can be annoying, despite him being a great worker. But then again, I think the Reigns superpush was much worse and less deserved than Okada. Either way, I can't see how Gedo's booking is any worse than WWE at times.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 16, 2016 12:45:22 GMT -5
The article talks about WWE like we aren't less than two years removed from a Wrestlemania wherein Daniel Bryan curtain jerked for the IC title while Roman Reigns went for the WWE title to a hail of boos. After even having a Fast Lane where Roman beat Bryan. And then going hard with Roman's main event push straight into and into months after the next Wrestlemania (where arguably the biggest babyface, Dean Ambrose, got made into Brock Lesnar's chew toy) after that to all of its incredible contention. Okada being crowned as the ace is not given nearly as much grief and derision as Roman is in the equivalent spot over here, so trying to claim that WWE would never do something like that for fear of fan revolt is ludicrous.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 16, 2016 12:49:18 GMT -5
Well he's also booking for a Japanese crowd. You can't really use a North American promotion as a comparison of what historically works and what doesn't. You can argue it might affect their North American expansion plans, but it's primarily Japan first, everyone else second. There's a lot of booking choices in NJ I don't agree with. But I can't sit here and tell you they're wrong when (as far as I can tell) they're still making profits regardless of my opinion. Yeah, that's an important point; I can watch a lot of NJPW and disagree with plenty that they do, but I also feel that undercurrent that traditions, tropes, and expectations in Japan aren't going to be the exact same as here. Like, I thought having Shibata drop the NEVER title to EVIL only to win it back in an overseas show so they could market a title change was kind of weak...but stuff like that isn't uncommon in puro, just like guys winning a belt for a tour that they're on and dropping it at the end, usually back to whomever the long-term champ was that they originally beat at the start of the tour. In the case of WK 11 I get the frustration folks will have with Naito not being back in the main event, but I give some leeway there given that I think booking Okada/Omega is a decent way to book with an eye on the future. With AJ gone and with NJPW looking to run shows stateside, a new gaijin champion/top contender is needed, and I don't think it's at all unfair to say that Kenny is the best bet among the available candidates to fill that slot, and his performance especially since the summertime warrants the spot he's in. Besides that, it isn't like Kenny is a slouch in terms of moving merchandise for the company, either. Still, Gedo definitely has his issues, like any booker does, and it's 100% fair to call them out when you see them. I completely agree that he didn't just jump the gun with GoD, he pogo-sticked over it off a case of dynamite. They started clicking better as a team during the WTL, but there was no reason to rush them so quickly into the Anderson/Gallows spot when they hadn't worked together professionally for so long. Plus there was the booking of the "Official Shinsuke Nakamura Title"...while that made the IC belt much more prestigious, since Nakamura is about as good as it gets, it nevertheless limited the title trajectory for a number of talents who could've used it. And yeah, while guys winning a belt at the start of a tour and dropping it back to the long-term champ by the end is a puro trope, Gedo does take it too far, in my opinion, and it's evidenced by how many champions are going into WK 11 on their first or second title defense. It's something he should look to reassess. That said, I'm more forgiving of NJPW booking, by and large, not just because "different culture, different tropes", but also because I still appreciate the atmosphere they build for their shows, which has me feeling more invested in what's happening than the WWE format that has just never been my cup of tea. Very subjective thing, I know. EDIT: I'll add, nevertheless, I'd possibly consider dropping NJPW World if a pay-to-stream option for NOAH popped up...
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 16, 2016 12:59:09 GMT -5
The article talks about WWE like we aren't less than two years removed from a Wrestlemania wherein Daniel Bryan curtain jerked for the IC title while Roman Reigns went for the WWE title to a hail of boos. After even having a Fast Lane where Roman beat Bryan. And then going hard with Roman's main event push straight into and into months after the next Wrestlemania (where arguably the biggest babyface, Dean Ambrose, got made into Brock Lesnar's chew toy) after that to all of its incredible contention. Okada being crowned as the ace is not given nearly as much grief and derision as Roman is in the equivalent spot over here, so trying to claim that WWE would never do something like that for fear of fan revolt is ludicrous. I don't think they're saying WWE would "never" do it, more that "if" WWE did it fans would be outraged...which they did, and the fans were, but again, I agree with you that it's not an apples to apples comparison the way the writer makes it seem to be.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Dec 17, 2016 9:06:37 GMT -5
My Main gripe is with the fanbase who shit on anything that the WWE and praises everything that NJPW, when they have some flaws like the ones mentioned above.
Still, Okada vs Omega makes a lot of sense, NJPW is trying to build their top gaijin star while for the first time has a big opportunity to reach foreign markets, and doing it with their ace Okada makes perfect business sense. And Ellsworth was a top merchandise seller, but no one wants him main eventing wrestlemmania.
Now, if Naito loses against Tanahashi then NJPW will be the biggest idiots ever. Also, no justification with GOD, both are f***ing terrible. Also the junior tags are a joke, at this point I think that NJPW doesn't really cares about tags
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Post by pegasuswarrior on Dec 17, 2016 11:40:00 GMT -5
John Cena is, by far, WWE's top ticket draw (among full timers at least) and merch mover. Should people should be outraged every time Cena isn't in the main event of Wrestlemania? The IWGP Intercontinental title headlines every show it's defended on except Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion, to compare it to the WWE Intercontinental title is a false equivalency. Regardless of what stables they are in, Okada and Omega are both stars in Japan, it's a completely fresh match up and will probably be a strong match of the year contender. There's nothing wrong with it being the main event. I know this place has a strong anti-Gedo undercurrent and I look forward to having multiple people tell me I'm objectively wrong for not hating the booking but this is such ridiculous criticism. Even the Guerrillas of Destiny stuff to a lesser degree since it appears that team is starting to click. Yeah. It's just one of those things where people seek out anything Japan whatsoever so they can say their own version of "it's not that good" without keeping up or watching. It's just easier for them, I guess. Gedo's questionable at times to say the least. Even thinking for a second that WWE booking and level of competition resulting from it is comparable is just a sign of not really paying attention in my opinion.
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Post by Raskovnik on Dec 17, 2016 12:00:31 GMT -5
My only real gripe with Gedo's booking is how he's all but ruined Goto. That's pretty much it. As new fans have started to get into NJPW in the past year or two they've started to shit on it because it's just not new and fun for them anymore, not to say there aren't any legitimate complaints to be had but I think that's mostly what the issue is. I do 90% of my wrestling discussion with Japanese fans these days and it's super refreshing. All they want is Tenzan to kick ass which is a sentiment I most definitely share.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2016 12:49:54 GMT -5
John Cena is, by far, WWE's top ticket draw (among full timers at least) and merch mover. Should people should be outraged every time Cena isn't in the main event of Wrestlemania? The IWGP Intercontinental title headlines every show it's defended on except Wrestle Kingdom and Dominion, to compare it to the WWE Intercontinental title is a false equivalency. Regardless of what stables they are in, Okada and Omega are both stars in Japan, it's a completely fresh match up and will probably be a strong match of the year contender. There's nothing wrong with it being the main event. I know this place has a strong anti-Gedo undercurrent and I look forward to having multiple people tell me I'm objectively wrong for not hating the booking but this is such ridiculous criticism. Even the Guerrillas of Destiny stuff to a lesser degree since it appears that team is starting to click. Yeah. It's just one of those things where people seek out anything Japan whatsoever so they can say their own version of "it's not that good" without keeping up or watching. It's just easier for them, I guess. Gedo's questionable at times to say the least. Even thinking for a second that WWE booking and level of competition resulting from it is comparable is just a sign of not really paying attention in my opinion. And even a good amount of Gedo's questionable decisions start to make some sense if you know what he has to work with. Everyone, or just about everyone, in the English speaking NJPW fanbase is watching full show broadcasts on NJPW World but their main tv exposure in Japan is a 30 minute weekly show where everything other than the biggest matches is heavily edited down for time. It's not really a good environment to give a lot of love to the junior and tag divisions like many want him to because he has to focus the top guys that are making money for the company. Gedo's not perfect but until he has five hours of weekly prime time tv on a channel that people actually have and still manages squander a bunch of talent, he can't fairly be compared to WWE. I'm not sure enough people properly understand NJPW's tv situation. There's a reason why in the translated excerpts of Tanahashi's and Kushida's podcasts that occasionally pop up, wishing their tv exposure was better is a fairly common talking point.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Dec 18, 2016 3:45:59 GMT -5
My main gripe is that it should be Omega vs Naito.
Bullet Club and LIJ are the two stables that actually act like a stable in NJPW. Throwing them at eachother at your main event show is a no brainer.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 19, 2016 8:20:58 GMT -5
Personally, here are the some of the problems I have with Gedo's NJPW booking:
Too much Bullet Club. We are in the NWO stage where the group is only kept alive because of merch sells. It is a parody of a NWO parody. Sorta like if someone did a group imitating the Blue World Order. About every gaijin in New Japan is a member and outside of the Elite aka Bullet Club Wolfpack, it's dead weight. Adding Cody makes it even more so. Even though Bullet Club was reaching Parodius with AJ as leader, he had enough cred to still maintain the group as the main threat. Kenny had to get fast track from being a comedy junior heavyweight to main event contender due to Nakamura and Styles leaving. They are doing good by giving him credible wins like the G-1. But he still haven't shaken off the goofiness enough to be at the level of acceptance Styles had. Losing at Wrestle Kingdom regardless if he does win the IWGP heavyweight title later is a major setback. Like how WWE spent all that time building up Roman only for him to lose at Wrestlemania. Still haven't recovered from that.
Tag team blaise. We got a merry go round when it comes to the junior tag titles. It's goes from gaijin to gaijin back to the previous gaijin to the newest gaijin and so on and so on. The times we do get some new Japanese act come in to break up things up, they get jobbed out and go away. Holding out hope for some real change. The heavyweight is more Somalian famine. Outside of Big Bash Heel and G.O.D., it's a wasteland. Adding Yano and Ishii is just a band aid. Briscoes weren't there long enough to make any true impact. Yujiro and Adam Page was just sad. Guerillas of Destiny is basically WWE making the Shining Stars tag team champions. They are serviceable but not people who should be the faces of the division. But lack of depth makes it so. Plus Tama has more tag chemistry with Fale. Since their deal with NOAH ended, it's time to bring back Killer Elite Squad to shore thing up.
Okada. Before Okada finally broke through as Ace, Tanahashi and Nakamura were it. Both become the Cena and Orton of New Japan. Even when not in the main event scene, they were the main event. But with Shinsuke leaving for WWE and Tanahashi getting ready to retire, Okada assumed the throne. It also helps that Bushiroad is going all in on pushing him in and out of the company. He is their main man. Problem is that Naito is a much hotter act with their fanbase in Japan and worldwide. Naito caught fire this year with his ring work & character overhaul and his Los Ingobernables de Japon surpassing Bullet Club and CHAOS in merch sells. But Naito is still not considered for the role of Ace yet alone true main event material. Goto is someone else for the longest considered a future IWGP heavyweight champion. But he suffers from the narrative of being a choke artist. Didn't help he worked to secure another title shot and lost once more. This time, he just joined the group of the man who beat him with no resistance. Like Kevin Durant joining the Golden State Warriors. Like we seen with WWE and Cena, New Japan is making Okada too strong which is starting to cause some fan backlash. Tanahashi suffered the same thing until they start to build up others to be his equal.
Those are my main issues with Gedo. Besides the WWE influence booking.
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Post by The Kevstaaa on Dec 19, 2016 11:35:04 GMT -5
Personally, here are the some of the problems I have with Gedo's NJPW booking: Too much Bullet Club. We are in the NWO stage where the group is only kept alive because of merch sells. It is a parody of a NWO parody. Sorta like if someone did a group imitating the Blue World Order. About every gaijin in New Japan is a member and outside of the Elite aka Bullet Club Wolfpack, it's dead weight. Adding Cody makes it even more so. Even though Bullet Club was reaching Parodius with AJ as leader, he had enough cred to still maintain the group as the main threat. Kenny had to get fast track from being a comedy junior heavyweight to main event contender due to Nakamura and Styles leaving. They are doing good by giving him credible wins like the G-1. But he still haven't shaken off the goofiness enough to be at the level of acceptance Styles had. Losing at Wrestle Kingdom regardless if he does win the IWGP heavyweight title later is a major setback. Like how WWE spent all that time building up Roman only for him to lose at Wrestlemania. Still haven't recovered from that. Tag team blaise. We got a merry go round when it comes to the junior tag titles. It's goes from gaijin to gaijin back to the previous gaijin to the newest gaijin and so on and so on. The times we do get some new Japanese act come in to break up things up, they get jobbed out and go away. Holding out hope for some real change. The heavyweight is more Somalian famine. Outside of Big Bash Heel and G.O.D., it's a wasteland. Adding Yano and Ishii is just a band aid. Briscoes weren't there long enough to make any true impact. Yujiro and Adam Page was just sad. Guerillas of Destiny is basically WWE making the Shining Stars tag team champions. They are serviceable but not people who should be the faces of the division. But lack of depth makes it so. Plus Tama has more tag chemistry with Fale. Since their deal with NOAH ended, it's time to bring back Killer Elite Squad to shore thing up. Okada. Before Okada finally broke through as Ace, Tanahashi and Nakamura were it. Both become the Cena and Orton of New Japan. Even when not in the main event scene, they were the main event. But with Shinsuke leaving for WWE and Tanahashi getting ready to retire, Okada assumed the throne. It also helps that Bushiroad is going all in on pushing him in and out of the company. He is their main man. Problem is that Naito is a much hotter act with their fanbase in Japan and worldwide. Naito caught fire this year with his ring work & character overhaul and his Los Ingobernables de Japon surpassing Bullet Club and CHAOS in merch sells. But Naito is still not considered for the role of Ace yet alone true main event material. Goto is someone else for the longest considered a future IWGP heavyweight champion. But he suffers from the narrative of being a choke artist. Didn't help he worked to secure another title shot and lost once more. This time, he just joined the group of the man who beat him with no resistance. Like Kevin Durant joining the Golden State Warriors. Like we seen with WWE and Cena, New Japan is making Okada too strong which is starting to cause some fan backlash. Tanahashi suffered the same thing until they start to build up others to be his equal. Those are my main issues with Gedo. Besides the WWE influence booking. You hit all of the nails on all of their heads.
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Post by RedSmile on Dec 19, 2016 17:10:11 GMT -5
"...if it happened in WWE..." is a blatant strawman, and completely inaccurate.
WWE has not pushed someone as anti-over as Guerrillas of Destiny??? Do we need a review of the past couple of Royal Rumbles?? Do we need reminding of how Roman Reigns gets booed out of nearly every building he walks into? How about that Alberto Del Rio experience?? Or The Great Khali?
Gedo has had his booking failures, but if we are going to compare those to WWE's it's going to be a long thread.
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Post by N E O G E O B O Y S on Dec 21, 2016 10:54:19 GMT -5
"...if it happened in WWE..." is a blatant strawman, and completely inaccurate. WWE has not pushed someone as anti-over as Guerrillas of Destiny??? Do we need a review of the past couple of Royal Rumbles?? Do we need reminding of how Roman Reigns gets booed out of nearly every building he walks into? How about that Alberto Del Rio experience?? Or The Great Khali? Gedo has had his booking failures, but if we are going to compare those to WWE's it's going to be a long thread. The criticism is not that the WWE doesn't push guys anti over guys, but that when WWE does it, people demand that vince must be sent to a retirement home and that kevin dunn must be literally killed in the backyard, meanwhile NJPW does the same, and the same guys ignore it completely
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Post by RedSmile on Dec 22, 2016 18:40:22 GMT -5
"...if it happened in WWE..." is a blatant strawman, and completely inaccurate. WWE has not pushed someone as anti-over as Guerrillas of Destiny??? Do we need a review of the past couple of Royal Rumbles?? Do we need reminding of how Roman Reigns gets booed out of nearly every building he walks into? How about that Alberto Del Rio experience?? Or The Great Khali? Gedo has had his booking failures, but if we are going to compare those to WWE's it's going to be a long thread. The criticism is not that the WWE doesn't push guys anti over guys, but that when WWE does it, people demand that vince must be sent to a retirement home and that kevin dunn must be literally killed in the backyard, meanwhile NJPW does the same, and the same guys ignore it completely Actually, I have read a lot of criticisms towards Gedo, it just tends to be mostly outside of these forums. Lots of people criticize Gedo for things like pushing Okada too hard, misusing Goto, or a lackluster Jr. Heavyweight division. Also, Gedo at least has shown a willingness to listen to fans, unlike Vince. The popular example right now is GoD. Ok, Gedo saw something in Tama Tonga and GoD, and it's been a big whiff so far. Let me posit a different example. "Stardust Genius" Tetsyua Naito. Pushed as the successor to Tanahashi as a top face, wins the G1 Climax in 2013, wins the NEVER title, and flops. So Gedo pumps the brakes on Naito in favor of Tanahashi for the WK8 main event. Gedo doesn't get as much shit, because he will do bold moves like this, while Vince wouldn't even pump the brakes on Roman Reigns (even after Reigns failed a drug test) and had to be dragged kicking and screaming to a Daniel Bryan push. Gedo is a good booker, IMO. I tend to cut Gedo more slack, than Vince, because I simply don't trust Vince to give a shit about what I want as a wrestling fan. Gedo might book stupid shit (like Karl Anderson being hypnotized by Maria Kanellis), but at least I get the impression that he gives a shit. He tried to push Hirooki Goto as IC champ, but evidently he wasn't a draw. He wanted to push Goto and Ishii as a tag team, but the NOAH relationship disintegrated preventing Go Shiozaki from being available as an opponent for Shibata, so he had no choice but to call an audible. He wanted to push Kota Ibushi, but Ibushi up and bailed on the company. Going into WK11 and 2017, Gedo is pushing Kenny Omega, Naito, Goto, and Shibata. Isn't that exactly what fans want?
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