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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 5, 2017 3:55:40 GMT -5
Absolutely- but there should be a little bit of a grace period for these things as well. I remember distinctly- one of my longtime friends happened to be a reviewer for a board around the time of the YES! Movement, and one thing he said to me in passing from this was simple: "Can't WWE see if they give us Daniel Bryan, we'll give them Roman Reigns?" That theory made sense. He was DEAD WRONG. They gave us Daniel Bryan, and not only did we did not give them Roman Reigns in the least, we didn't even manage to be happy they gave us Daniel Bryan- within 24 hours the reaction was basically "that shit was great. NOW DO CESARO!" Keeping fans happy is the primary goal- but there should be at least a LITTLE BIT of a grace period when the fans finally get what they wanted. By contrast, there's a switchover within a couple weeks to demanding something else than that...if not outright turning on the person now that we finally got them (looking in your direction, Zack Ryder...) I don't disagree, but this kind of highlights the issue in that there's a lot of guys ready for bigger things and seeing one guy make it is going to make people want the same for others. My issue there is that in recent years, a lot of people would associate "bigger things" as "being World Champion", something that I've seen be described on this board as one of the only ways one would know that WWE care about them because somewhere along the way, someone (either the company or its fans) made it not OK to be a midcarder and the other followed suit. Problem is, it's completely impractical for EVERYONE to get to that level, regardless of how good they are or how much they deserve it. I mean, say Cesaro does become world champion some day. That's great... Sami Zayn still isn't. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,052
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 5, 2017 4:11:38 GMT -5
I don't disagree, but this kind of highlights the issue in that there's a lot of guys ready for bigger things and seeing one guy make it is going to make people want the same for others. My issue there is that in recent years, a lot of people would associate "bigger things" as "being World Champion", something that I've seen be described on this board as one of the only ways one would know that WWE care about them because somewhere along the way, someone (either the company or its fans) made it not OK to be a midcarder and the other followed suit. Problem is, it's completely impractical for EVERYONE to get to that level, regardless of how good they are or how much they deserve it. I mean, say Cesaro does become world champion some day. That's great... Sami Zayn still isn't. I wouldn't totally agree there. Say Cesaro becomes world champion, and Sami Zayn isn't, but he's feuding with Seth Rollins, then with Brock, then with other people who've been established on that level in even handed contests. While some people will never be happy, I think that would alleviate a lot of the complaining. Rather than "Never ending Owens feud, after which the other guy moves up the card. Followed by a whole lot of nothing. Followed by sacrificial lamb to get the new monster over". If you have too many top line guys, cycle them, trade them. Midcard belts don't have to be death, Cena's US title run and The Miz's IC run have shown just recently you can make those belts matter, and if wrestlers are doing something that has meaning people are a lot happier. |
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Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847 
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 5, 2017 4:41:30 GMT -5
My issue there is that in recent years, a lot of people would associate "bigger things" as "being World Champion", something that I've seen be described on this board as one of the only ways one would know that WWE care about them because somewhere along the way, someone (either the company or its fans) made it not OK to be a midcarder and the other followed suit. Problem is, it's completely impractical for EVERYONE to get to that level, regardless of how good they are or how much they deserve it. I mean, say Cesaro does become world champion some day. That's great... Sami Zayn still isn't. I wouldn't totally agree there. Say Cesaro becomes world champion, and Sami Zayn isn't, but he's feuding with Seth Rollins, then with Brock, then with other people who've been established on that level in even handed contests. While some people will never be happy, I think that would alleviate a lot of the complaining. Rather than "Never ending Owens feud, after which the other guy moves up the card. Followed by a whole lot of nothing. Followed by sacrificial lamb to get the new monster over". If you have too many top line guys, cycle them, trade them. Midcard belts don't have to be death, Cena's US title run and The Miz's IC run have shown just recently you can make those belts matter, and if wrestlers are doing something that has meaning people are a lot happier. That's not the point, though. The point is that it still says that same "bigger things" is "if you're not the World Champion, it's all worthless"- and then, even 'feud with Seth Rollins, then with Brock, then with other people who've been established in even handed contests" can't really matter because there was no one time Zayn showed up with a pretty red belt with his logo on the side. All it does is HIDE that problem instead of exacerbate it, and make it clear WWE doesn't HAVE to do that because it won't matter- all that matters is a title reign, and when it boils down to it, the fans would rather see their favorite wrestler parade around with the WWE or Universal Title for 24 hours and then be a lowcard jobber forever, then to have 10+ years of good- not great, but good feuds around the card, always be a part of the show, but never win the BIG ONE. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,052
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 5, 2017 4:57:30 GMT -5
I wouldn't totally agree there. Say Cesaro becomes world champion, and Sami Zayn isn't, but he's feuding with Seth Rollins, then with Brock, then with other people who've been established on that level in even handed contests. While some people will never be happy, I think that would alleviate a lot of the complaining. Rather than "Never ending Owens feud, after which the other guy moves up the card. Followed by a whole lot of nothing. Followed by sacrificial lamb to get the new monster over". If you have too many top line guys, cycle them, trade them. Midcard belts don't have to be death, Cena's US title run and The Miz's IC run have shown just recently you can make those belts matter, and if wrestlers are doing something that has meaning people are a lot happier. That's not the point, though. The point is that it still says that same "bigger things" is "if you're not the World Champion, it's all worthless"- and then, even 'feud with Seth Rollins, then with Brock, then with other people who've been established in even handed contests" can't really matter because there was no one time Zayn showed up with a pretty red belt with his logo on the side. All it does is HIDE that problem instead of exacerbate it, and make it clear WWE doesn't HAVE to do that because it won't matter- all that matters is a title reign, and when it boils down to it, the fans would rather see their favorite wrestler parade around with the WWE or Universal Title for 24 hours and then be a lowcard jobber forever, then to have 10+ years of good- not great, but good feuds around the card, always be a part of the show, but never win the BIG ONE. Pretty Red Belt? First time I've heard it called that. It does matter. Take Dean Ambrose, who's had a rabid fanbase for years, he was put into a feud with Brock, were people complaining he wasn't getting the belt? A few, but way less because people were looking forward to a big time feud, didn't turn out that way but people were invested. If you put a guy in these feuds to lose every time, then yes, there would still be problems, see Bray Wyatt or Dolph Ziggler. Keep a guy looking competitive near the top of the card and people will be happy, if you try it and they don't work, drop them down by all means. With 2 titles, why not give a few more guys at the top to see if they catch fire. On Smackdown, how many people are calling for "their guy" to be pushed to the top? Not many because AJ's killing it, and Dean's in a great feud. How about on RAW? A lot more because they've bungled Kevin Owens and there's the ever present Roman problem. |
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 5, 2017 5:45:50 GMT -5
They really should be careful with openly bitching about their online fanbase when they're the ones who're footing the bill now, all it would take is for a hundred thousand fans worldwide to end their subscriptions because they don't like being talked down to and the network will return to being a money pit. The WWE really do need to remember that what they provide is a niche product, one with a long history of fans just turning away when they're insulted and fought at every turn, in 1997 WCW didn't think they'd lose fans like they did but here we are.
'Channel hopping, Ritalin popping, monkey's... but please don't quit the fanclub!'
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Post by machomuta on Jan 5, 2017 5:47:02 GMT -5
Heyman was spot on.
Wrestling fans talks more about the things, they hate, then the things they like.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 5, 2017 5:55:38 GMT -5
Heyman was spot on. Wrestling fans talks more about the things, they hate, then the things they like. What fandom doesn't seem like that if you judge them purely based on message boards? Debate about the quality and direction of the product are a big part of any fandom, be it comics, sports, toys, television or whatever, the only fandoms that don't have a fair amount of 'negative posts' are those built around discussing a long dead product with no hope of revival. |
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 5, 2017 7:42:22 GMT -5
There isn't, but I've read some extremely cruel and nasty comments from wrestling fans over the years pertaining to matches and booking, not even real life incidents.
Often I can't blame the wrestlers for getting sick of that.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,295
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 5, 2017 15:48:37 GMT -5
I guess it's also because to them, it's a job as well. Most of us that have jobs have gotten defensive when a customer complains about something. It's an instinctive trait I think.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 5, 2017 15:58:09 GMT -5
They should be thankful the fans who complain are still watching,
Most of the fanbase switched off years ago.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 5, 2017 16:06:59 GMT -5
They should be thankful the fans who complain are still watching, Most of the fanbase switched off years ago. This is what really gets me; open contempt for your fanbase is one thing, but they can't pull the "You'll keep watching no matter what!" card when they've lost millions of viewers steadily over the past decade (just in the US alone) and can't even get a consistent 3 million viewers for their shows anymore. All signs seem to point to people tuning out after all, and there's so much entertainment and stuff to watch and do out there now that they really can't afford that kind of attitude. I just wonder what the viewership breakpoint is when they're suddenly looking at having to stop pulling this garbage. |
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Post by wallabylikeyou on Jan 5, 2017 17:27:29 GMT -5
I mean, at the same time, some fans do go way overboard with their complaining. It's only wrestling like.
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Post by corndog on Jan 5, 2017 17:50:27 GMT -5
One of the things that's always bugged me is there's a big "unknown" with contracts and willingness/ability to work. What do you mean Val?Ok I'll explain. Let's say... I want to see Wrestler X get a title run. The crowd likes him. He's a great worker. So I complain he's underused. Now, on the business side of things, perhaps X only signs 6 month deals. The WWE might not want to invest that much in a dude that's only on contract at most at any given time, 6 months. Now, on the personal side of things, maybe the guy prefers the lower stress of just being "One of the guys". Maybe he likes to do more PR rather than wrestle. Maybe he's got a bum hip and 2 ten minute high impact matches a month is all he can comfortably do. Most of the info in the above paragraph we are almost always in the dark about. Makes me realize we only see, hear and read about a small portion of the business. And sometimes none of that is the problem and Wrestler X just pissed the wrong person off  If you watched the "Bring it to the Table" show, JBL brought light to business part of the WWE that fans don't understand talking about 3 hour Raws. But Heyman just screamed and yelled at Rosenberg, because he was a representative of the fans, that he was stupid and we were stupid and if we keep watching, it doesn't matter. So ironic that Heyman craps all over the internet fans, when he completely played to that portion of the fanbase with ECW. Unless he's trying to get us not to watch.... |
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Post by corndog on Jan 5, 2017 17:55:55 GMT -5
I feel like a lot of modern fans think hate watching wrestling and endlessly pulling apart every negative detail is what the wrestling experience is suppoded to be. Pro wrestling was never intended to be watched in that manner. I think the wrong things are being focused on. I don't think the bad is as offensive as people make it out to be. Sadly, it's not just wrestling. We've just become so spoiled with getting what we want and getting it YESTERDAY(!!!) that we've become nitpicky little douches that just sap the fun out of everything we just used to simply.....y'know....enjoy. I mean, think about any movie that comes out now. No matter how good it is, it's not long before some smart ass has made a You Tube video pointing out every flaw in the movie, no matter how minor. "No, I don't want to know everything that was wrong with STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE. I thought it was a fun movie, and I don't need my fun picked apart by some loser that wants to feel superior to the product." This is a ridiculously good point. People feel the need to crap on everything no matter how good or bad it it. It truly is impossible to please everyone. If 80-90% of the audience is happy, you are doing something right. I think a lot of it has to do with the existence of the internet itself. Everyone's opinion is out there and the loudest voices are usually the unhappy ones. Can't say I am not guilty of it myself, or most on this board for that matter. |
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Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
When Toronto sports teams lose, Alison Brie is sad
Posts: 11,089
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Jan 5, 2017 18:22:32 GMT -5
I completely understand that there are aspects of pro wrestling that will forever be foreign to me because I've never been a wrestler or worked in the industry in any capacity.
That doesn't mean, though, that some of my criticism isn't valid or that I don't have a point.
It's the same refrain you hear in sports all the time from certain athletes when they take issue with fans or the media: "Well, you never played the game."
That's just a stupid, dismissive argument.
Do you know when your basement is flooded or do you need to call a plumber when there's three feet of water to make sure?
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 5, 2017 18:25:48 GMT -5
You gotta show respect for Dis Business, brother.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 21:36:44 GMT -5
Eh, when a wrestler complains about the product and the fans don't like him or her, it doesn't get received well (see: Ryback). Maybe it's similar to why wrestlers would react the same way on the other side of things.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
Posts: 7,656
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jan 5, 2017 21:57:48 GMT -5
They're the WWE, they're the MAJOR LEAGUE, they are all-knowing, and you will damn well enjoy whatever they feed you. But seriously, it's a load of shit that we as fans aren't allowed to criticize/debate angles or wrestlers. I hate when wrestlers throw out the "YOU DON'T WRESTLE, SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE US!" I instantly lose respect for any wrestler who drops that shit. Tommy End dropped it on Twitter a couple of days ago. It's just a silly, stupid argument. What would they even know about criticizing what we say here? Do they even have an account on FAN? What do they know about being a successful critic!? |
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 5, 2017 22:06:50 GMT -5
When people inside the industry whine about fan opinions, it usually means they've read or heard an uncomfortable truth that they'd prefer to marginalise.
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StuntGranny®
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Not Actually a Granny
Posts: 16,099
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Post by StuntGranny® on Jan 5, 2017 22:08:34 GMT -5
They're the WWE, they're the MAJOR LEAGUE, they are all-knowing, and you will damn well enjoy whatever they feed you. But seriously, it's a load of shit that we as fans aren't allowed to criticize/debate angles or wrestlers. I hate when wrestlers throw out the "YOU DON'T WRESTLE, SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE US!" I instantly lose respect for any wrestler who drops that shit. Tommy End dropped it on Twitter a couple of days ago. It's just a silly, stupid argument. What would they even know about criticizing what we say here? Do they even have an account on FAN? What do they know about being a successful critic!? Moderator Ric is actually Triple H. You heard it here first. |
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