Jiren
Patti Mayonnaise
Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
|
Post by Jiren on Jan 5, 2017 23:35:55 GMT -5
I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old. So untrue. When the product is good, nobody complains. Go look at the old NXT Takeover events, read reviews of great PPPV's or the Lucha Underground threads. When the product is great the fans are happy and love it. We all came here likely to discuss our love of wrestling rather to slag it off. The difference between the WWE and other TV shows is that if other shows were as bad for so long as Raw has been they would be cancelled by now, but the WWE although they don't seem to care, have such loyal fans they frankly don't deserve. They also have an instant focus group of thousands of fans every week in the arena and millions on the internet who tell them what is and what isn't working every week. Other shows would kill for that. What is also baffling to me is that the fans have largely wanted the same thing for decades- well written stories. The WWE always brag that they "tell stories" but they hardly ever do. The WWE does have more contempt than it's fans than anybody else as previously stated with the exception of George Lucas, Tekken's Katsuhiro Harada and possibly Metal Gear Solid's Hideo Kojima who also treat the fans poor. Look at how people like SD, Sure we point out it's issues (Mainly barren roster) but fans are still happy with it overall Unlike RAW (Where most of the complaints are aimed at)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 23:55:51 GMT -5
I feel like a lot of modern fans think hate watching wrestling and endlessly pulling apart every negative detail is what the wrestling experience is suppoded to be. Pro wrestling was never intended to be watched in that manner. I think the wrong things are being focused on. I don't think the bad is as offensive as people make it out to be. Sadly, it's not just wrestling. We've just become so spoiled with getting what we want and getting it YESTERDAY(!!!) that we've become nitpicky little douches that just sap the fun out of everything we just used to simply.....y'know....enjoy. I mean, think about any movie that comes out now. No matter how good it is, it's not long before some smart ass has made a You Tube video pointing out every flaw in the movie, no matter how minor. "No, I don't want to know everything that was wrong with STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE. I thought it was a fun movie, and I don't need my fun picked apart by some loser that wants to feel superior to the product."Thank you for perfectly summing up how i feel about How it should have ended/Spoony/CinemaSins. No one knows how to just simply enjoy something. I can enjoy something, admit it had a few faults but still have a good time, not make videos longer than the movie itself detailing how much they hated it
|
|
|
Post by abjordans on Jan 5, 2017 23:57:31 GMT -5
I think WWE provides enough good content and provides entertainment at too fair a price to get the vitoral their fanbase give them. To me, the WWE Network invalidates saying WWE hates their fans.
I think WWE makes fun of their fans and seems to have contempt for their fans BECAUSE their hardcore fans are so fickle. You said it yourself, Smackdown is good. WWE offers four distinctly different brands currently, with a 5th of the way. Still, fans think they deserve more and are being done a disservice because WWE wants Roman Reigns to be a star. It sort of, in a way, makes me embarrassed to be lumped in with the hardcore fan base. The ungratefulness is kind of mind blowing. I understand discussing and debating the highs and lows of shows, but the bitterness and entitlement, coupled with unrealistic expectations, of a lot of online wrestling disscussions is baffling to me.
|
|
|
Post by corndog on Jan 6, 2017 0:18:56 GMT -5
They should be thankful the fans who complain are still watching, Most of the fanbase switched off years ago. This is what really gets me; open contempt for your fanbase is one thing, but they can't pull the "You'll keep watching no matter what!" card when they've lost millions of viewers steadily over the past decade (just in the US alone) and can't even get a consistent 3 million viewers for their shows anymore. All signs seem to point to people tuning out after all, and there's so much entertainment and stuff to watch and do out there now that they really can't afford that kind of attitude. I just wonder what the viewership breakpoint is when they're suddenly looking at having to stop pulling this garbage. Basically, the WWE is obsessed with building the global brand and have given up on building the domestic fanbase. Basically the IWC means nothing to them and they feel that it is beneath them. This did help them stay afloat during the New Generation era, but at the same time, they weren't declaring global domination like now. I think that was made official with the WWE UK tournament. The interesting part is NJPW pretty much made it official at WK 11(although it has been known for a while with alliances with ROH, CMLL and RevPro), they also want to build a global brand. While WWE would absolutely murder NJPW in a head to head, it feels like New Japan has a strategy here. WWE is now going to be pulling their resources several different ways with Smackdown/Raw separated, NXT, and now a UK brand. At the same time, clearly alienating domestic fans, and remember, unlike NJPW bringing a few top stars to other continents, they don't have the major investments in these brands like WWE, who is fully footing the bill for everything they do. Now don't get me wrong, I don't want either product to fall, but I wouldn't mind seeing WWE humbled in the UK and Asia. I always felt the best product in wrestling is brought out with competition and if WWE losses enough money on their expansion, I think they will be forced to finally put a superior product out there. Also, if there is a time to strike WWE, it is now, because their focus has never been further from center.
|
|
RIHT
Hank Scorpio
Wanted a title with "YOU'RE WELCOME!" Close enough.
Hey-yo.
Posts: 5,897
|
Post by RIHT on Jan 6, 2017 0:37:09 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling. I think that's more so Vince McMahon because he's kind of crazy (and WWE really is THE wrestling company in the industry, so fans see it a lot). I think WWE and wrestling would benefit from someone outside of the business running the company. Triple H has done good with NXT and bringing back Bruno and Warrior, but I bet he isn't as good about making peace with a rumored rival like CM Punk.
|
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,605
|
Post by trollrogue on Jan 6, 2017 0:38:54 GMT -5
I actually think what Heyman said is being misunderstood. I think he was actually trying to tell us to stop watching so they change things up. He was just saying it in a way that wouldn't get him fired. Somebody in this thread gets it. Christ almighty. Paul Heyman is a HEEL. What did you expect him to say, OP? This thread is tantamount to the people who wanted to lynch Andy Kaufman for 'beating up women'. You have been gloriously worked into a shoot, brother. Just like John Cena can never do any wrong in the public eye when it comes to little kids in the WWE Universe, Paulie is the voice of selfish heels who drop pipe bombs (like Paul Heyman Guy CMPunk) who will say the stuff that will get the smarks of the WWE firedbup. 4 pages in on this thread and it's apparently working like gangbusters.
|
|
RIHT
Hank Scorpio
Wanted a title with "YOU'RE WELCOME!" Close enough.
Hey-yo.
Posts: 5,897
|
Post by RIHT on Jan 6, 2017 0:40:01 GMT -5
I think the issue is that the fans never stop complaining. I don't know any other fandom that is never happy with what they are fans of like WWE. The fans are passionate but never seem to be happy or even close to satisfied. I imagine as someone busting their ass to give the fans a good show that it gets a bit old. I can see where some talent is coming from, but I feel a lot of the people who "run" wrestling take the fans' intelligence for granted. I don't hate the guy who is Roman Reigns on TV per say, but man, I hate Roman Reigns. After awhile, because wrestling is a weird hybrid between fiction and reality, those emotions may be felt by some towards the people themselves, not just the character.
|
|
SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
|
Post by SAJ Forth on Jan 6, 2017 0:49:53 GMT -5
"Fans are wrong about ending the streak/fans are wrong about Goldberg destroying Lesnar" Said unironically by a company that lambasts WCW for ending Goldberg's streak.
|
|
Rave
El Dandy
Perpetually Bored
Posts: 8,111
|
Post by Rave on Jan 6, 2017 1:05:19 GMT -5
That bit about not being able to criticize if you've never done something needs to die. It's stupid and useless. Same with that god-awful hater defense and that ridiculous "real fans" baiting. It all just pisses people off even more.
There's also an old adage about not being able to please everyone all the time that applies here.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 6, 2017 1:06:15 GMT -5
The idea of ungratefulness is weird to me. They're a company providing a product, there's nothing for fans/consumers of that product to be 'grateful' about.
People are well within their rights to voice displeasure if they choose. Now while I'd agree that generally better time can be spent consuming or buying products one enjoys, and that's valid, the idea that there's some sort of gratitude owed a company is baffling to me.
|
|
trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,605
|
Post by trollrogue on Jan 6, 2017 1:16:06 GMT -5
Paul Heyman was on a show with a superfan of WWE, a self-professed advocate of the smarks of pro wrestling, on a WWE Network-only show. So off the bat, you are literally paying 9.99/month for the pleasure of hearing Paul's heelish slant on IWC concerns. This brings up several points:
1) Paul saying fans 'bitch and moan' repeatedly and they should boycott the WWE is him daring you to end your WWE Network subscription if you have the integrity to feel strongly enough that your 9.99/month is being wasted. Will you? (Spoiler Alert he doesn't care, he already got paid for the month of January thanks to us)
2) His suggestion that the WWE can't please 100% of the WWE Universe 100% of the time is simply common sense. Maybe the Angry Miz fan girl loved Miz dropping the IC title on SDLive, but a lot of other people, after years of hating Miz as well, all of a sudden LOVE the Miz right now and probably feel like he should've went over. Should WWE hotshot the title back to Miz and piss off the Angry Miz fan again to cater to New Era Happy Miz fans? What happens when they go back to hating Miz again? Do you begin to see the problem of 'giving people what they want' here?
3) People want everything, every way, every time, if they pay for the Network or live tickets, Paul is basically saying that's 'enough' of a consent that WWE booking (Roman never losing, Cena's unlimited title shots, Stephanie's ball busting, etc.) is working. There is virtually no other correct way to book.
4) The IWC rep himself plays his part well, he brings up several issues the IWC has with the product, but at the end of the day he almost begs Bean and JBL to insult him and laughs at their blatant disrespect of fans. We love it. I will admit it. I'd mark the f*** out for Hey man to hustle me on live WWE Network programming, too. If anybody in this thread would do anything differently, I claim bullshit.
BTW I kinda love this new show and can't wait for Episode 2! If it wasn't clear by my comment
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,052
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 6, 2017 3:26:42 GMT -5
I actually think what Heyman said is being misunderstood. I think he was actually trying to tell us to stop watching so they change things up. He was just saying it in a way that wouldn't get him fired. Somebody in this thread gets it. Christ almighty. Paul Heyman is a HEEL. What did you expect him to say, OP? This thread is tantamount to the people who wanted to lynch Andy Kaufman for 'beating up women'. You have been gloriously worked into a shoot, brother. Just like John Cena can never do any wrong in the public eye when it comes to little kids in the WWE Universe, Paulie is the voice of selfish heels who drop pipe bombs (like Paul Heyman Guy CMPunk) who will say the stuff that will get the smarks of the WWE firedbup. 4 pages in on this thread and it's apparently working like gangbusters. Then he's miscast in this show. You bring out a semi shoot show, talking about real life aspects of the business, with 2 guys talking like adults, having a back and forth, with one person doing character schtick the whole time next to them, it's jarring. Also, he's playing the ranting heel... he's the one most passionately defending the company. If you want to go heel/face on this, wouldn't you want the face be the one making good points about how the business is run the way it is, and the heel being an OTT ranter saying everything should change? Ooo also, from your other post 3) People want everything, every way, every time, if they pay for the Network or live tickets, Paul is basically saying that's 'enough' of a consent that WWE booking (Roman never losing, Cena's unlimited title shots, Stephanie's ball busting, etc.) is working. There is virtually no other correct way to book. The numbers have been going down for years, that is not a sign the way they're doing things is working.
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 6, 2017 5:22:59 GMT -5
That bit about not being able to criticize if you've never done something needs to die. It's stupid and useless. Same with that god-awful hater defense and that ridiculous "real fans" baiting. It all just pisses people off even more. There's also an old adage about not being able to please everyone all the time that applies here. It's even more stupid when you remember that Paul Heyman himself is an ascended smark, someone who got into wrestling working for magazines without ever being an active wrestler himself or even having trained as one, and he made his reputation complaining about bigger companies and having his wrestlers cut shoot promos on their enemies in wrestling in a way they helped destroy what little of keyfabe survived into the 90s. Maybe if he'd worked as a wrestler, he wouldn't have sent so many guys out there to dash their brains out with tables and chairs.
|
|
Welfare Willis
Crow T. Robot
Pornomancer 555-BONE FDIC Bonsured
Game Center CX Kacho on!
Posts: 44,259
|
Post by Welfare Willis on Jan 6, 2017 5:37:31 GMT -5
No industry has more contempt for its own fanbase than wrestling. I think that's more so Vince McMahon because he's kind of crazy (and WWE really is THE wrestling company in the industry, so fans see it a lot). "You don't like what you think you like." Really Vince has never liked "wrasslin'" and Kevin Dunn hates it, but you have to give both men credit for their contributions to it.
|
|
Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,297
|
Post by Woo on Jan 6, 2017 7:30:40 GMT -5
Heyman was spot on. Wrestling fans talks more about the things, they hate, then the things they like. Only when more of the show is bad than good. Whether or not the fans talk about the good things or the bad things is directly related to the percentage of good things and bad things on the show. Case in point- Smackdown. There have been dozens of threads this year about AJ Styles, The Miz and Heath Slater and how good they are. On a show like Raw when there is far fewer good things than bad things then of course there will be more discussions about the bad. All wrestling fans want is a good TV show. When we get that such as with Smackdown, NXT (though that is slipping a little) and Lucha Underground they are happy. When we get Raw or Impact they are not. People like good TV and hate bad TV. It's that simple.
|
|
|
Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 6, 2017 11:08:38 GMT -5
Paul Heyman was on a show with a superfan of WWE, a self-professed advocate of the smarks of pro wrestling, on a WWE Network-only show. So off the bat, you are literally paying 9.99/month for the pleasure of hearing Paul's heelish slant on IWC concerns. This brings up several points: 1) Paul saying fans 'bitch and moan' repeatedly and they should boycott the WWE is him daring you to end your WWE Network subscription if you have the integrity to feel strongly enough that your 9.99/month is being wasted. Will you? (Spoiler Alert he doesn't care, he already got paid for the month of January thanks to us) 2) His suggestion that the WWE can't please 100% of the WWE Universe 100% of the time is simply common sense. Maybe the Angry Miz fan girl loved Miz dropping the IC title on SDLive, but a lot of other people, after years of hating Miz as well, all of a sudden LOVE the Miz right now and probably feel like he should've went over. Should WWE hotshot the title back to Miz and piss off the Angry Miz fan again to cater to New Era Happy Miz fans? What happens when they go back to hating Miz again? Do you begin to see the problem of 'giving people what they want' here? 3) People want everything, every way, every time, if they pay for the Network or live tickets, Paul is basically saying that's 'enough' of a consent that WWE booking (Roman never losing, Cena's unlimited title shots, Stephanie's ball busting, etc.) is working. There is virtually no other correct way to book. 4) The IWC rep himself plays his part well, he brings up several issues the IWC has with the product, but at the end of the day he almost begs Bean and JBL to insult him and laughs at their blatant disrespect of fans. We love it. I will admit it. I'd mark the f*** out for Hey man to hustle me on live WWE Network programming, too. If anybody in this thread would do anything differently, I claim bullshit. BTW I kinda love this new show and can't wait for Episode 2! If it wasn't clear by my comment There's a lot of gaping holes in your logic. Take Miz losing the belt for example. People really like Miz, and think Miz is on fire. Maybe one match outcome didn't go "our way", but that doesn't say that the rest of the show is bad. When there's a lot of things going on in WWE at one time, lots of acts being given time and stories, people can find what they want and enjoy that. Sometimes this is just "My guy didn't win in this match, but did in these other three on the show". I don't know what this idea of my subscribing to the network is "enough of a consent" for WWE's bad things is even close to an issue. I really hate part-timers being the focus of the show, and my subscription is not saying "Yes, good, Brock Lesnar is the logical focal point of everything". I'm watching for everything else on the show, and subscribing to help throw some money into supporting a company employing many of my favorite wrestlers. Wrestlers subjecting themselves to some real shit for my entertainment. Wrestling has a built-in system of feedback that virtually any other form of entertainment would kill for, on top of all the conventional ways of measuring fan interest already there. There's no excuse to claim the asinine belief that WWE would just assume if someone is buying a ticket that they're approving of everything about the show. And with how much content WWE is putting out every week and the whole subscription service thing, that's more ludicrous a position than ever before. I'd also like to point out that as far as "people want everything all the way all the time" inanity doesn't really seem to apply to the really well received booking Smackdown has had lately, which isn't exactly the "pander to IWC with only ever indy darlings going over" caricature of what a typical forum member wants. It's just a well booked show, and by and large it's liked for being a well booked show. So maybe it's not entirely about match outcomes? Maybe there's other elements to the problems with WWE that they could easily solve but choose not to? And I really feel the need to stress this in the face of your defense of these terrible attitudes: It is dumb as shit for any company to openly insult is customers. Both for the threat that people will leave (and make no mistake, WWE is not looking at a net market growth these past few years), and for just generally engendering the goodwill toward your company that any sensible businessperson would want to have. It's insecure egotistical bullshit and it continues to make the company look bad.
|
|
Reflecto
Hank Scorpio
The Sorceress' Knight
Posts: 6,847
|
Post by Reflecto on Jan 6, 2017 15:17:13 GMT -5
The idea of ungratefulness is weird to me. They're a company providing a product, there's nothing for fans/consumers of that product to be 'grateful' about. People are well within their rights to voice displeasure if they choose. Now while I'd agree that generally better time can be spent consuming or buying products one enjoys, and that's valid, the idea that there's some sort of gratitude owed a company is baffling to me. When the company isn't providing you a product that you want, period, that's a reason to voice displeasure. When the company actually DOES give people the product they want after they demand it for months and make it clear how badly they want it...and in response to getting that product, the fans merely say "Great. Now, I'm moving to the NEXT item on my list", and do it over and over again until it's painfully clear the REAL thing that the fans want is "your time as makers of this product is over. Give ME (not even the fans, but ME, PERSONALLY) the book and all power, and let me make this product MY WAY"...that's entitlement.
|
|
The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,295
|
Post by The Ichi on Jan 6, 2017 15:38:44 GMT -5
Sadly, it's not just wrestling. We've just become so spoiled with getting what we want and getting it YESTERDAY(!!!) that we've become nitpicky little douches that just sap the fun out of everything we just used to simply.....y'know....enjoy. I mean, think about any movie that comes out now. No matter how good it is, it's not long before some smart ass has made a You Tube video pointing out every flaw in the movie, no matter how minor. "No, I don't want to know everything that was wrong with STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE. I thought it was a fun movie, and I don't need my fun picked apart by some loser that wants to feel superior to the product."Thank you for perfectly summing up how i feel about How it should have ended/Spoony/CinemaSins. No one knows how to just simply enjoy something. I can enjoy something, admit it had a few faults but still have a good time, not make videos longer than the movie itself detailing how much they hated it In fairness, they make money doing those vids. If I could get paid to rant, I'd quit my job immediately. Now the people that try to emulate them that DONT get paid on the other hand...
|
|
Nikki Heyman
Fry's dog Seymour
EXTREEEEEME Pony Manager
✬ Believe In The Fight ✬
Posts: 24,018
|
Post by Nikki Heyman on Jan 6, 2017 15:40:06 GMT -5
I actually think what Heyman said is being misunderstood. I think he was actually trying to tell us to stop watching so they change things up. He was just saying it in a way that wouldn't get him fired. Somebody in this thread gets it. Christ almighty. Paul Heyman is a HEEL. What did you expect him to say, OP? This thread is tantamount to the people who wanted to lynch Andy Kaufman for 'beating up women'. You have been gloriously worked into a shoot, brother. Just like John Cena can never do any wrong in the public eye when it comes to little kids in the WWE Universe, Paulie is the voice of selfish heels who drop pipe bombs (like Paul Heyman Guy CMPunk) who will say the stuff that will get the smarks of the WWE firedbup. 4 pages in on this thread and it's apparently working like gangbusters. Uncle Paul: "Gotcha....." WWE is going to be more about making money (and pleasing the crowds who pay the money and buy the merch) than the internet grumbling base (who watches the product on tv, finds "any means necessary" to watch other shows and otherwise does nothing to fill the coffers). Have the numbers gone down since the Attitude Era? Sure. WWE still has mostly-full arenas for TV, merchandise sells, they've raised ticket prices drastically and people still buy. Those that don't watch and complain anyway are invalid. It's like me complaining about porn and I don't watch it - kinda pointless since there are millions (and millions!) of people who watch porn and my not contributing to it is going to change anything. That goes for the internet fans that aren't giving them money when there are a dozen others who like what they're seeing and ARE paying money for it.
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jan 6, 2017 16:01:26 GMT -5
The idea of ungratefulness is weird to me. They're a company providing a product, there's nothing for fans/consumers of that product to be 'grateful' about. People are well within their rights to voice displeasure if they choose. Now while I'd agree that generally better time can be spent consuming or buying products one enjoys, and that's valid, the idea that there's some sort of gratitude owed a company is baffling to me. When the company isn't providing you a product that you want, period, that's a reason to voice displeasure. When the company actually DOES give people the product they want after they demand it for months and make it clear how badly they want it...and in response to getting that product, the fans merely say "Great. Now, I'm moving to the NEXT item on my list", and do it over and over again until it's painfully clear the REAL thing that the fans want is "your time as makers of this product is over. Give ME (not even the fans, but ME, PERSONALLY) the book and all power, and let me make this product MY WAY"...that's entitlement. No, it isn't. Because again, this is a company trying to make money. They aren't some benevolent force or government agency or charity. Fans or consumers don't 'owe' them anything.
|
|