chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Jan 8, 2017 19:17:39 GMT -5
Something to keep in mind: About once a year on here we have a thread about Bret vs. Piper at Wrestlemania 8. Same sort of dynamic between "one of the greatest" vs "good not special and I don't get the hype"/"overrated." The viewers who fall into the latter camp usually hadn't seen the pre-match Piper-Bret promo, which is just as important to the match's reputation as anything that happened between the ropes. New Japan slowly built to this match for more than a year. It's the cross-section of careers for a first time one-on-one match-up. It's rare the stars align for such a massive match as it is. Now keep in mind you have all that tremendous build, and then two of the greatest workers in the world for the match itself. It's a once-in-a-generation happening. That's why it's getting such acclaim. As a counter point I'd say that Zayn/Nakamura, with no storyline going in, was a better match than this one. That had a storyline: Zayn's NXT farewell vs. the heavily touted Japan's finest. Both had something to prove before that audience, with Zayn wanting to leave NXT on top having conquered it all including this new challenger who was considered the absolute best in the world. Nakamura wanting to make a strong showing by taking out the guy who had been in the company's top matches for the past three years straight. Plus having it on the eve of the mothership company's absolute biggest show of the year. That's much higher stakes than had it happened unannounced and unhyped on some edition of NXT's weekly show. But Okada-Omega is a better story and a better match. Absolutely adore them both though.
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Post by ADudeThatIsAwesome on Jan 8, 2017 19:19:36 GMT -5
I don't think I'm the end of any spectrum. I just have never gotten the whole "Japanese is better" mentality that seems to peremeate the IWC. Now, admitedly, it's not a hive mind, but there does seem to be a majority. Metlzer has called this the "greatest match of all time" but IMO it's just a long, over chereographed borefest. That kinda assumes that people like it or other matches skier because its a Japanese, which is kinda unfair. I'm not one of the guys gushing over it (I thought the semi-main nobody is talking about was better), but I don't see it being over choreographed at all. Just my opinion. Meltzer in paticular seems to lean more towards the Japanese stuff. I'll admit, Japan has produced some great matches, but it seems that matches that are a bit.... I don't wanna say sub-pat, but, 3 star or 4 star matches get ranked as 5 stars, simply because they happened in Japan. Where a better match in WWE, one that should be 4 or 5, gets 3.5 stars. I understand, ratings are subjective and all that.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Jan 8, 2017 19:20:11 GMT -5
There's the entire story leading up to it, which contains everything professional wrestling can and should be. Okada knocked up Beulah McGillicutty behind Omega's back? Now I gotta see this!
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Post by ADudeThatIsAwesome on Jan 8, 2017 19:22:52 GMT -5
As a counter point I'd say that Zayn/Nakamura, with no storyline going in, was a better match than this one. That had a storyline: Zayn's NXT farewell vs. the heavily touted Japan's finest. Both had something to prove before that audience, with Zayn wanting to leave NXT on top having conquered it all including this new challenger who was considered the absolute best in the world. Nakamura wanting to make a strong showing by taking out the guy who had been in the company's top matches for the past three years straight. Plus having it on the eve of the mothership company's absolute biggest show of the year. That's much higher stakes than had it happened unannounced and unhyped on some edition of NXT's weekly show. But Okada-Omega is a better story and a better match. Absolutely adore them both though. Ah... Chaz. I've been a lurker on this forum for a couple of years now, and I've seen you post things with statements like this before: "This is everything wrestling is supossed to be" "you HAVE to watch this match to be a wrestling fan" But... no. This match was just ok. A 3 star match. Anything that Sasha/Charlotte did last year was better, Cena VS AJ at SummerSlam was flat out the better match.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 8, 2017 19:28:45 GMT -5
Maybe people would stop giving hot takes over a good match if you jokers talked about Naito/Tana more.
Omega/Okada is a fantastic match but I feel like the hype has people just tuning in for it, while the last four matches or so of the card are all worth watching and varied in style/pace.
Undercard was ass tho lol
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Post by Raskovnik on Jan 8, 2017 20:10:20 GMT -5
Maybe people would stop giving hot takes over a good match if you jokers talked about Naito/Tana more. Omega/Okada is a fantastic match but I feel like the hype has people just tuning in for it, while the last four matches or so of the card are all worth watching and varied in style/pace. Undercard was ass tho lol I personally thought Naito vs Tanahashi was also five stars, and also told an awesome story. Kenny just happens to be hugely popular in the IWC because he lives on the front page of the wrestling subreddit which is basically the tastemaker for this generation of wrestling fans, for better or for worse, and is great at social media, plus the majority of people don't know much about the context of the Tanahashi/Naito match nor were they as invested in either man, so it's a perfect storm of things. Same reason why Okada is hardly getting mentioned even in the context of the main event, like Kenny went out there and pulled a Danshoku Dino and wrestled an invisible man to a classic. I think everyone should go out of their way to watch the last four matches along with the promo videos instead of just viewing the main event in a vacuum because they heard it was the best match of all time, which already sets too many people up to be like "Pfft, whatever" so we get threads like this.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 8, 2017 20:16:09 GMT -5
Maybe people would stop giving hot takes over a good match if you jokers talked about Naito/Tana more. Omega/Okada is a fantastic match but I feel like the hype has people just tuning in for it, while the last four matches or so of the card are all worth watching and varied in style/pace. Undercard was ass tho lol I personally thought Naito vs Tanahashi was also five stars, and also told an awesome story. Kenny just happens to be hugely popular in the IWC because he lives on the front page of the wrestling subreddit which is basically the tastemaker for this generation of wrestling fans, for better or for worse, and is great at social media, plus the majority of people don't know much about the context of the Tanahashi/Naito match nor were they as invested in either man, so it's a perfect storm of things. Same reason why Okada is hardly getting mentioned even in the context of the main event, like Kenny went out there and pulled a Danshoku Dino and wrestled an invisible man to a classic. I think everyone should go out of their way to watch the last four matches along with the promo videos instead of just viewing the main event in a vacuum because they heard it was the best match of all time, which already sets too many people up to be like "Pfft, whatever" so we get threads like this. You're right there, the match benefits from being a focal point of NJPW's pseudo global interest--it was the only video package they subtitled . English commentary also put the Omega/Okada match over huge as an important match, with obvious reason. Japanese commentary went nuts over Naito/Tana, really treating it as Tana's last stand and really lamenting at the end. I also think we have yet to see the best of Hiromu/Kushida. If that was the minimum I want more.
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Post by Raskovnik on Jan 8, 2017 20:33:56 GMT -5
I personally thought Naito vs Tanahashi was also five stars, and also told an awesome story. Kenny just happens to be hugely popular in the IWC because he lives on the front page of the wrestling subreddit which is basically the tastemaker for this generation of wrestling fans, for better or for worse, and is great at social media, plus the majority of people don't know much about the context of the Tanahashi/Naito match nor were they as invested in either man, so it's a perfect storm of things. Same reason why Okada is hardly getting mentioned even in the context of the main event, like Kenny went out there and pulled a Danshoku Dino and wrestled an invisible man to a classic. I think everyone should go out of their way to watch the last four matches along with the promo videos instead of just viewing the main event in a vacuum because they heard it was the best match of all time, which already sets too many people up to be like "Pfft, whatever" so we get threads like this. You're right there, the match benefits from being a focal point of NJPW's pseudo global interest--it was the only video package they subtitled . English commentary also put the Omega/Okada match over huge as an important match, with obvious reason. Japanese commentary went nuts over Naito/Tana, really treating it as Tana's last stand and really lamenting at the end. I also think we have yet to see the best of Hiromu/Kushida. If that was the minimum I want more. Yeah, it's actually been a bit sad to me because I love Tanahashi but it's really starting to feel like we're entering the denouement of his career. I knew logically that it was coming but to see it actually happen is a different thing entirely. Okada was passed the torch at WK10 and felt like the real f***ing deal at WK11, so there is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that he's going to carry this company on his back now. It's just bittersweet because Tanahashi was the best ace anyone could ask for. He's given so much to the company and the fans. I don't think we're going to see him ever fully call it quits, but he's so beat up that I think the Naito match was probably his swan song. Naito is already a star but I think it did that much more to cement it, like Okada winning last year. Tana was totally unselfish about both of those matches and both were incredible. He will surely continue to put on good matches for the foreseeable future but he doesn't have to kill himself anymore to do it.
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Post by Jacy Jayne Atomic Dog AMV on Jan 8, 2017 20:45:06 GMT -5
Maybe people would stop giving hot takes over a good match if you jokers talked about Naito/Tana more. Omega/Okada is a fantastic match but I feel like the hype has people just tuning in for it, while the last four matches or so of the card are all worth watching and varied in style/pace. Undercard was ass tho lol I personally thought Naito vs Tanahashi was also five stars, and also told an awesome story. Kenny just happens to be hugely popular in the IWC because he lives on the front page of the wrestling subreddit which is basically the tastemaker for this generation of wrestling fans, for better or for worse, and is great at social media, plus the majority of people don't know much about the context of the Tanahashi/Naito match nor were they as invested in either man, so it's a perfect storm of things. Same reason why Okada is hardly getting mentioned even in the context of the main event, like Kenny went out there and pulled a Danshoku Dino and wrestled an invisible man to a classic. I think everyone should go out of their way to watch the last four matches along with the promo videos instead of just viewing the main event in a vacuum because they heard it was the best match of all time, which already sets too many people up to be like "Pfft, whatever" so we get threads like this. Tanahashi vs. Naito was f***ing brilliant and deserves way more love.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Jan 8, 2017 21:10:46 GMT -5
That had a storyline: Zayn's NXT farewell vs. the heavily touted Japan's finest. Both had something to prove before that audience, with Zayn wanting to leave NXT on top having conquered it all including this new challenger who was considered the absolute best in the world. Nakamura wanting to make a strong showing by taking out the guy who had been in the company's top matches for the past three years straight. Plus having it on the eve of the mothership company's absolute biggest show of the year. That's much higher stakes than had it happened unannounced and unhyped on some edition of NXT's weekly show. But Okada-Omega is a better story and a better match. Absolutely adore them both though. Ah... Chaz. I've been a lurker on this forum for a couple of years now, and I've seen you post things with statements like this before: "This is everything wrestling is supossed to be" "you HAVE to watch this match to be a wrestling fan" But... no. This match was just ok. A 3 star match. Anything that Sasha/Charlotte did last year was better, Cena VS AJ at SummerSlam was flat out the better match. I never used "supposed." "Can and should" is moreso referring to the committment to the story and the emotive aspects of it, not "EVERYTHING SHOULD BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS" as "supposed" would entail. I'd never suggest that, doing so would cross not just the subjective nature of the medium but do a tremendous disservice to the regional and cultural difference that exist within the global scope of professional wrestling. By the "HAVE" think I'm guessing you're referring to The Final Deletion discussion last summer? I never said "you HAVE to watch this match to be a wrestling fan," rather that was a discussion where people were judging/dismissing The Final Deletion without having viewed it in any capacity and just going off of others written reports. What I said was it was something every fan, love it or hate it, should watch in order to have a frame of reference for one of the year's biggest deals in wrestling. Welcome to the forums. There's the entire story leading up to it, which contains everything professional wrestling can and should be. Okada knocked up Beulah McGillicutty behind Omega's back? Now I gotta see this! Yeah, but it's New Japan so they were suuuuuper subtle about it.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Jan 8, 2017 21:15:34 GMT -5
I personally thought Naito vs Tanahashi was also five stars, and also told an awesome story. Kenny just happens to be hugely popular in the IWC because he lives on the front page of the wrestling subreddit which is basically the tastemaker for this generation of wrestling fans, for better or for worse, and is great at social media, plus the majority of people don't know much about the context of the Tanahashi/Naito match nor were they as invested in either man, so it's a perfect storm of things. Same reason why Okada is hardly getting mentioned even in the context of the main event, like Kenny went out there and pulled a Danshoku Dino and wrestled an invisible man to a classic. I think everyone should go out of their way to watch the last four matches along with the promo videos instead of just viewing the main event in a vacuum because they heard it was the best match of all time, which already sets too many people up to be like "Pfft, whatever" so we get threads like this. Tanahashi vs. Naito was f***ing brilliant and deserves way more love. Yeah, Tanahashi-Natio is a five star match no doubt and also told an incredibly well built story. But, I think it's moreso being overshadowed because 1) During the match people seemed fixated on just how bad Tanahashi's new music is (I mean, it's really, really bad), 2) This wasn't the first ever meeting between Naito-Tanahashi like Omega-Okada was so people kind of knew and took for granted going in that it would be a five star match and 3) Excellent Tanahashi matches being overshadowed has become a Wrestle Kingdom tradition. His Okada matches from WK9 and WK10 were stellar as well (and absolutely necessary for Okada's WK11 story) but happened to go on after 2015's match of the year and 2016's dream-match-turned-biggest-story-of-the-first-quarter.
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Post by ADudeThatIsAwesome on Jan 8, 2017 21:17:19 GMT -5
Ah... Chaz. I've been a lurker on this forum for a couple of years now, and I've seen you post things with statements like this before: "This is everything wrestling is supossed to be" "you HAVE to watch this match to be a wrestling fan" But... no. This match was just ok. A 3 star match. Anything that Sasha/Charlotte did last year was better, Cena VS AJ at SummerSlam was flat out the better match. I never used "supposed." "Can and should" is moreso referring to the committment to the story and the emotive aspects of it, not "EVERYTHING SHOULD BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS" as "supposed" would entail. I'd never suggest that, doing so would cross not just the subjective nature of the medium but do a tremendous disservice to the regional and cultural difference that exist within the global scope of professional wrestling. By the "HAVE" think I'm guessing you're referring to The Final Deletion discussion last summer? I never said "you HAVE to watch this match to be a wrestling fan," rather that was a discussion where people were judging/dismissing The Final Deletion without having viewed it in any capacity and just going off of others written reports. What I said was it was something every fan, love it or hate it, should watch in order to have a frame of reference for one of the year's biggest deals in wrestling. Welcome to the forums. Okada knocked up Beulah McGillicutty behind Omega's back? Now I gotta see this! Yeah, but it's New Japan so they were suuuuuper subtle about it. Yea, I was referring the "Final Deletion" and after re-reading some of your posts.... I apologize my man. Sorry if it came across like I was attacking you.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 8, 2017 21:17:39 GMT -5
Okada is that dude and could f*** my girl, tbh.
That's all I go to add at this point.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Jan 8, 2017 21:20:13 GMT -5
I never used "supposed." "Can and should" is moreso referring to the committment to the story and the emotive aspects of it, not "EVERYTHING SHOULD BE EXACTLY LIKE THIS" as "supposed" would entail. I'd never suggest that, doing so would cross not just the subjective nature of the medium but do a tremendous disservice to the regional and cultural difference that exist within the global scope of professional wrestling. By the "HAVE" think I'm guessing you're referring to The Final Deletion discussion last summer? I never said "you HAVE to watch this match to be a wrestling fan," rather that was a discussion where people were judging/dismissing The Final Deletion without having viewed it in any capacity and just going off of others written reports. What I said was it was something every fan, love it or hate it, should watch in order to have a frame of reference for one of the year's biggest deals in wrestling. Welcome to the forums. Yeah, but it's New Japan so they were suuuuuper subtle about it. Yea, I was referring the "Final Deletion" and after re-reading some of your posts.... I apologize my man. Sorry if it came across like I was attacking you. All good.
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Post by Raskovnik on Jan 8, 2017 21:30:15 GMT -5
Okada is that dude and could f*** my girl, tbh. That's all I go to add at this point. I REALLY wish he'd go back to this look. He's already a great looking guy but the "He's a f***ing punk but he really is that good" look was my favorite look of his by far. I guess it wouldn't make as much sense with his current character, though.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 8, 2017 21:38:31 GMT -5
Maybe people would stop giving hot takes over a good match if you jokers talked about Naito/Tana more. Omega/Okada is a fantastic match but I feel like the hype has people just tuning in for it, while the last four matches or so of the card are all worth watching and varied in style/pace. Undercard was ass tho lol I personally thought Naito vs Tanahashi was also five stars, and also told an awesome story. Kenny just happens to be hugely popular in the IWC because he lives on the front page of the wrestling subreddit which is basically the tastemaker for this generation of wrestling fans, for better or for worse, and is great at social media, plus the majority of people don't know much about the context of the Tanahashi/Naito match nor were they as invested in either man, so it's a perfect storm of things. Same reason why Okada is hardly getting mentioned even in the context of the main event, like Kenny went out there and pulled a Danshoku Dino and wrestled an invisible man to a classic. I think everyone should go out of their way to watch the last four matches along with the promo videos instead of just viewing the main event in a vacuum because they heard it was the best match of all time, which already sets too many people up to be like "Pfft, whatever" so we get threads like this. Exactly; what makes pro wrestling great is the context that a match occurs in, and going into Omega/Okada without knowing the context of it will likely leave people saying "wow, that was great, but why are people doing flips over it?". Against the backdrop of NJPW's look to expand globally; the backdrop of Okada's full ascendency to the top; the backdrop of Kenny's rapid fire rise and his taking advantage of AJ's and Nakamura's departures; against all of it, the match took on exponentially more meaning, going from "that's nearly five stars based on the ring work alone" to "oh my God that's one of the best experience I've had watching wrestling". But yes, I'd hate to see people ignore the second half of the card at WK; the undercard wasn't even that bad, the final four matches were just THAT great (and even the tag title match was just pure fun). But this happens so often, I even remember back when Joe vs. Punk II happened in ROH and was the first match in ages to get five stars from Meltzer, you still wind up with people walking into the game blind and asking "what made that so great?" while ignoring that pro wrestling takes on its deeper meaning when you approach a match with some context in mind. Like, Flair vs. Steamboat was always great...but does it get that added gear without the backdrop of it being a war between the sleazy millionaire playboy Flair and the ultimate family man in Steamboat? Obviously all taste in wrestling and other forms of entertainment is on some level subjective, so I'm absolutely not saying anybody needs to find this match incredible or what have you (and I totally understand people enjoying Naito vs. Tanahashi more, just a brilliant match), just that I think that very often when people ask what they're missing in situations like this, it's the context of a match. Context is what makes it so that we can't say "you'd enjoy this more/less/whatever if this match happened in WWE!", precisely because this match couldn't happen in WWE, because the context and the match planning in WWE compared to NJPW are just too different.
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Post by Raskovnik on Jan 8, 2017 21:44:27 GMT -5
I personally thought Naito vs Tanahashi was also five stars, and also told an awesome story. Kenny just happens to be hugely popular in the IWC because he lives on the front page of the wrestling subreddit which is basically the tastemaker for this generation of wrestling fans, for better or for worse, and is great at social media, plus the majority of people don't know much about the context of the Tanahashi/Naito match nor were they as invested in either man, so it's a perfect storm of things. Same reason why Okada is hardly getting mentioned even in the context of the main event, like Kenny went out there and pulled a Danshoku Dino and wrestled an invisible man to a classic. I think everyone should go out of their way to watch the last four matches along with the promo videos instead of just viewing the main event in a vacuum because they heard it was the best match of all time, which already sets too many people up to be like "Pfft, whatever" so we get threads like this. Exactly; what makes pro wrestling great is the context that a match occurs in, and going into Omega/Okada without knowing the context of it will likely leave people saying "wow, that was great, but why are people doing flips over it?". Against the backdrop of NJPW's look to expand globally; the backdrop of Okada's full ascendency to the top; the backdrop of Kenny's rapid fire rise and his taking advantage of AJ's and Nakamura's departures; against all of it, the match took on exponentially more meaning, going from "that's nearly five stars based on the ring work alone" to "oh my God that's one of the best experience I've had watching wrestling". But yes, I'd hate to see people ignore the second half of the card at WK; the undercard wasn't even that bad, the final four matches were just THAT great (and even the tag title match was just pure fun). But this happens so often, I even remember back when Joe vs. Punk II happened in ROH and was the first match in ages to get five stars from Meltzer, you still wind up with people walking into the game blind and asking "what made that so great?" while ignoring that pro wrestling takes on its deeper meaning when you approach a match with some context in mind. Like, Flair vs. Steamboat was always great...but does it get that added gear without the backdrop of it being a war between the sleazy millionaire playboy Flair and the ultimate family man in Steamboat? Obviously all taste in wrestling and other forms of entertainment is on some level subjective, so I'm absolutely not saying anybody needs to find this match incredible or what have you (and I totally understand people enjoying Naito vs. Tanahashi more, just a brilliant match), just that I think that very often when people ask what they're missing in situations like this, it's the context of a match. Context is what makes it so that we can't say "you'd enjoy this more/less/whatever if this match happened in WWE!", precisely because this match couldn't happen in WWE, because the context and the match planning in WWE compared to NJPW are just too different. I wish we could have that final paragraph bolded, underlined, and pinned up somewhere. Wonderfully put. That's exactly what I always want to say when people make those bogus what-if comparisons but don't ever bother because it just never seems worth it.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Jan 8, 2017 22:30:58 GMT -5
Okada is that dude and could f*** my girl, tbh. That's all I go to add at this point. I REALLY wish he'd go back to this look. He's already a great looking guy but the "He's a f***ing punk but he really is that good" look was my favorite look of his by far. I guess it wouldn't make as much sense with his current character, though. I considered this his "Cena rocking throwback jerseys" stage. His career was on the rise. Fans getting behind. More than willing to take the number one spot from the old guard. Current Okada is "Face of the Company Cena".
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Heartbreaker
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Post by Heartbreaker on Jan 8, 2017 22:52:06 GMT -5
I liked the match a lot, but I totally can understand why some people wouldn't dig it (for starters, it was a very long match) and that's completely fine. Everybody's entitled to their own opinion. The whole 6 stars thing and the bandwagon happening is kinda annoying though. Meltzer has been saying some ridiculous shit like Wrestle Kingdom should have been on PPV. I also never understood the point of rating matches, all I really wanna know if a match is good or even bad it's so good.
Oh, and now Kenny is ALL OVER wreddit.
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Post by Ted Sheckler on Jan 9, 2017 0:49:54 GMT -5
That kinda assumes that people like it or other matches skier because its a Japanese, which is kinda unfair. I'm not one of the guys gushing over it (I thought the semi-main nobody is talking about was better), but I don't see it being over choreographed at all. Just my opinion. Meltzer in paticular seems to lean more towards the Japanese stuff. I'll admit, Japan has produced some great matches, but it seems that matches that are a bit.... I don't wanna say sub-pat, but, 3 star or 4 star matches get ranked as 5 stars, simply because they happened in Japan. Where a better match in WWE, one that should be 4 or 5, gets 3.5 stars. I understand, ratings are subjective and all that. I feel the same. Lots of people especially in the past 2-3 years as NJPW's popularity has grown have jumped on the "If it happens in Japan it's better" deal simply because they come across as smarter if they say that. Not accusing anyone of that on here but definitely something I've noticed throughout the entire IWC.
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