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Post by SirLucas on Jan 11, 2017 17:45:08 GMT -5
Hello, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the latest FAN MEGATHREAD!!! This one is for everything Dolph Ziggler! Since this is a MEGATHREAD, we want it to be bigger, stronger and more powerful than any other thread! And unlike lesser threads - but like similar ones - this will continue to thrive well past page 100, because MEGATHREADS scoff at petty things like page limits. Other MEGATHREADS will be created at the sole discretion of the Mods, DO NOT Start one yourself. And now back to the original post that started it all: It they keep his character like the promo he cut on talking smack, he is the next best antihero in wrestling. What an amazing promo on Talking Smack. He came off as a man who was broken and frustrated, who did they he had to do for regain his momentum. Notice once he didn't trash talk the fans nor blame the fans for turning against him, which is the atypical wrestling trope for most heel turns. But, I am afraid once they have him cut down the fans, he goes from something special to just another heel. I hope WWE keeps him from cutting promos on the fans and leave him to cutting promos like he did on Talking Smack. He need to see a completely different dimension to Ziggler's heel persona, and not try to make him Miz 2.0. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 17:55:51 GMT -5
He's still a geek & a loser. Being a heel doesn't make him "cool" in my eyes.
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Post by Starshine on Jan 11, 2017 18:03:57 GMT -5
He's still a geek & a loser. Being a heel doesn't make him "cool" in my eyes. That should be a plus for a heel. |
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Post by King Boo on Jan 11, 2017 18:08:07 GMT -5
You know what? No. I'm not going to just let this devolve the way threads on this subject always do. It's not even a discussion anymore, it's just people repeating themselves in each topic.
Loser
Disgrace
Nerd
Jabroni
Etc. Etc. Etc.
There now that all that repetition is out of the way onto the subject at hand.
Obviously this is all really new, but I think it could be a really good thing overall. I don't think they'd make him Miz 2.0 and I agree about turning on the fans. The fans aren't the "problem" as he was still getting cheered and people wanted to root for him. If they go about it the right way, he could totally run with this and make it interesting in that anti-hero way you mentioned.
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Post by SirLucas on Jan 11, 2017 18:09:59 GMT -5
If anything else, the fans popped and chanted "Yes!" when he attacked Kalisto. If anything else, Ziggler made Crews and Kalisto look like a bunch of nerds.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 18:10:48 GMT -5
I like Dolph but his appearance on Talking Smack didn't strike me as a guy who understood the narrative his character is going through. He's on an incredible losing streak, he's throwing chairs at guys that a couple of weeks ago he'd be treating with respect, he's clearly frustrated as far as it goes on Smackdown live.
Then on Talking Smack he's talking about it like a girl who got a haircut and liked it. Neither Shane or Renee really challenged him, he even lost the match again yesterday and he's talking like he won it, enters the Royal Rumble with a confidence he shouldn't have right now, and Shane shakes his hand and lets him in like it's no big deal. I didn't find any facet of how they handled Dolph on Talking Smack any good. I think the storyline is a logical progression (or regression) if they're not gonna actually let him win matches as a face, but Talking Smack was not good for him.
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Post by britishbulldog on Jan 11, 2017 18:15:33 GMT -5
As I watched it I just thought he could have gone further. He's Twitter name is heelziggler. Play that up. Say he's been so determined tutu be the top guy he swallowed who he really is. Tried to be more of a team player. After all these years it's gotten him no where and he's done pretending to be something he's not.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jan 11, 2017 18:18:21 GMT -5
You know what? No. I'm not going to just let this devolve the way threads on this subject always do. It's not even a discussion anymore, it's just people repeating themselves in each topic. Loser Disgrace Nerd Jabroni Etc. Etc. Etc. There now that all that repetition is out of the way onto the subject at hand. Obviously this is all really new, but I think it could be a really good thing overall. I don't think they'd make him Miz 2.0 and I agree about turning on the fans. The fans aren't the "problem" as he was still getting cheered and people wanted to root for him. If they go about it the right way, he could totally run with this and make it interesting in that anti-hero way you mentioned. Who was the last anti-hero in WWE? CM Punk fits the bill when he first turned. Of course Ziggler has nowhere the mic skill that CM Punk has(which is nothing to be ashamed,CM Punk is my personal best on the microphone) but he could make it work.Wrestling could use more Anti-Heroes. |
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Dang!
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Post by Dang! on Jan 11, 2017 18:21:22 GMT -5
He came off as a man who was broken[...] I AM DELETION! |
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Post by King Boo on Jan 11, 2017 18:21:51 GMT -5
You know what? No. I'm not going to just let this devolve the way threads on this subject always do. It's not even a discussion anymore, it's just people repeating themselves in each topic. Loser Disgrace Nerd Jabroni Etc. Etc. Etc. There now that all that repetition is out of the way onto the subject at hand. Obviously this is all really new, but I think it could be a really good thing overall. I don't think they'd make him Miz 2.0 and I agree about turning on the fans. The fans aren't the "problem" as he was still getting cheered and people wanted to root for him. If they go about it the right way, he could totally run with this and make it interesting in that anti-hero way you mentioned. Who was the last anti-hero in WWE? CM Punk fits the bill when he first turned. Of course Ziggler has nowhere the mic skill that CM Punk has(which is nothing to be ashamed,CM Punk is my personal best on the microphone) but he could make it work.Wrestling could use more Anti-Heroes. Probably Punk. I feel like they could have it with Ambrose but I'm not sure they know how to get the most of him sometimes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 18:23:32 GMT -5
Who was the last anti-hero in WWE? CM Punk fits the bill when he first turned. Of course Ziggler has nowhere the mic skill that CM Punk has(which is nothing to be ashamed,CM Punk is my personal best on the microphone) but he could make it work.Wrestling could use more Anti-Heroes. Probably Punk. I feel like they could have it with Ambrose but I'm not sure they know how to get the most of him sometimes. Kevin Owens I think would fit the bill most on today's roster. He pretty much has CM Punk's snark. |
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Post by King Boo on Jan 11, 2017 18:28:42 GMT -5
Probably Punk. I feel like they could have it with Ambrose but I'm not sure they know how to get the most of him sometimes. Kevin Owens I think would fit the bill most on today's roster. He pretty much has CM Punk's snark. Possibly. For me personally he leans too far into flat out obnoxious heel for it to fit, but I wouldn't write it off completely. |
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 11, 2017 18:33:57 GMT -5
Who was the last anti-hero in WWE? CM Punk fits the bill when he first turned. Of course Ziggler has nowhere the mic skill that CM Punk has(which is nothing to be ashamed,CM Punk is my personal best on the microphone) but he could make it work.Wrestling could use more Anti-Heroes. The problem is that the concept of the anti-hero has basically been destroyed in modern wrestling, and indeed, CM Punk's heel turn actually proved why it's dead. You can't have actual ANTI-HEROES in a world where the fans have made the call: "Storylines, gimmicks, promos, narratives? They all mean nothing. If I personally like the wrestler, then they're a babyface. If I personally dislike the wrestler, they're a heel." Once that happens, a true "antihero" can't work because, quite simply, any heel who's popular with fans- be it AJ Styles for being one of the best performers in the world and knowing it, Kevin Owens for being an irredeemable, complete monster...but being really, really good in the ring, The Miz for openly talking about his complete and utter disdain for the fans, the opponents, and everything in the world...but being SO GOOD at doing it...all of them inherently become anti-heroes, even if they're absolutely evil monsters, solely because the fans like them and in the new normal of pro wrestling, that fact MAKES THEM the good guy. |
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Post by Dub H on Jan 11, 2017 19:17:07 GMT -5
Who was the last anti-hero in WWE? CM Punk fits the bill when he first turned. Of course Ziggler has nowhere the mic skill that CM Punk has(which is nothing to be ashamed,CM Punk is my personal best on the microphone) but he could make it work.Wrestling could use more Anti-Heroes. The problem is that the concept of the anti-hero has basically been destroyed in modern wrestling, and indeed, CM Punk's heel turn actually proved why it's dead. You can't have actual ANTI-HEROES in a world where the fans have made the call: "Storylines, gimmicks, promos, narratives? They all mean nothing. If I personally like the wrestler, then they're a babyface. If I personally dislike the wrestler, they're a heel." Once that happens, a true "antihero" can't work because, quite simply, any heel who's popular with fans- be it AJ Styles for being one of the best performers in the world and knowing it, Kevin Owens for being an irredeemable, complete monster...but being really, really good in the ring, The Miz for openly talking about his complete and utter disdain for the fans, the opponents, and everything in the world...but being SO GOOD at doing it...all of them inherently become anti-heroes, even if they're absolutely evil monsters, solely because the fans like them and in the new normal of pro wrestling, that fact MAKES THEM the good guy. Well,if you wanna get full meta that is a good point. But for example Deadpool is the most popular character in marvel(ok one of the top ones) and even when they try to push him into the more traditional Hero hole,he still ends up most of the time being an Anti-Hero. You can still have an Anti-Hero character,in the story, and be popular. It is just that WWE would ignora the fact that anti-hero is what makes that person popular and fully turn face in the end. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 19:28:27 GMT -5
Probably Punk. I feel like they could have it with Ambrose but I'm not sure they know how to get the most of him sometimes. Kevin Owens I think would fit the bill most on today's roster. He pretty much has CM Punk's snark. Owens could have been but the last 6 to 8 months he's done way too much and it's taken a ton of the danger away from his character.Last week when he was doing all that comedy but then stood up to Goldberg it didn't click for me. |
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Post by Dub H on Jan 11, 2017 19:30:32 GMT -5
Kevin Owens I think would fit the bill most on today's roster. He pretty much has CM Punk's snark. Owens could have been but the last 6 to 8 months he's done way too much and it's taken a ton of the danger away from his character.Last week when he was doing all that comedy but then stood up to Goldberg it didn't click for me. losing 99 times to Reigns and not being able to beat anyone cleanly also didnt help. |
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on Jan 11, 2017 19:32:49 GMT -5
The problem is that the concept of the anti-hero has basically been destroyed in modern wrestling, and indeed, CM Punk's heel turn actually proved why it's dead. You can't have actual ANTI-HEROES in a world where the fans have made the call: "Storylines, gimmicks, promos, narratives? They all mean nothing. If I personally like the wrestler, then they're a babyface. If I personally dislike the wrestler, they're a heel." Once that happens, a true "antihero" can't work because, quite simply, any heel who's popular with fans- be it AJ Styles for being one of the best performers in the world and knowing it, Kevin Owens for being an irredeemable, complete monster...but being really, really good in the ring, The Miz for openly talking about his complete and utter disdain for the fans, the opponents, and everything in the world...but being SO GOOD at doing it...all of them inherently become anti-heroes, even if they're absolutely evil monsters, solely because the fans like them and in the new normal of pro wrestling, that fact MAKES THEM the good guy. Well,if you wanna get full meta that is a good point. But for example Deadpool is the most popular character in marvel(ok one of the top ones) and even when they try to push him into the more traditional Hero hole,he still ends up most of the time being an Anti-Hero. You can still have an Anti-Hero character,in the story, and be popular. It is just that WWE would ignora the fact that anti-hero is what makes that person popular and fully turn face in the end. Of course- but that is the difference of "anti-hero" and hero. Deadpool is an example. He's an anti-hero because ostensibly he does heroic things, but in a villainous way. (Even that's not an uncommon thing- really, most of the most popular babyfaces in wrestling WERE faces who worked like heels- Hogan, Austin, Rock, etc.) However, he doesn't usually work for the villains, he is still ostensibly on the side of good, even if he does it in a bad way. This is a world of difference between, for example- Kevin Owens vs. Roman Reigns: On the one hand, Kevin Owens is an irredeemable monster. He hates everyone and everything, the only thread of good is he claims to do it for his family (which is his excuse to be more evil by virtue of this claim. He spends his time alongside Chris Jericho, the two being irredeemably evil. ...but then, on the other side, he's fighting Roman Reigns and the fans really, really don't like that guy. It's the whole difference there- with Deadpool, he's on the side of good, but still acts morally ambiguous and does evil to evil. With, say, Kevin Owens, he is evil, admits he's evil, and does the evil to someone ostensibly good. Deadpool is an anti-hero. Kevin Owens is just the bully in the schoolyard, but because he's picking on the least popular kid in school, the other kids and teachers like him. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 19:33:18 GMT -5
Owens could have been but the last 6 to 8 months he's done way too much and it's taken a ton of the danger away from his character.Last week when he was doing all that comedy but then stood up to Goldberg it didn't click for me. losing 99 times to Reigns and not being able to beat anyone cleanly also didnt help. Ofcourse it didn't but after the Zayn feud he suddenly became a comedian for some reason and while he's funny it does him no favors as a top heel world champion. |
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Post by Mister Pigwell on Jan 11, 2017 19:38:27 GMT -5
Woo a new Megathread! Thank you Stu. After so many threads being made of Ziggles lately this will simplify further discussion.
So heads up, all future Ziggler based threads will have their posts moved to this one for containment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2017 19:39:32 GMT -5
He's still a geek & a loser. Being a heel doesn't make him "cool" in my eyes. That should be a plus for a heel. He would actually be a real heel which is a rare thing in wwe.Everybody's gotta be the cool heel or funny they should use the recent apathy for Ziggler as a Postive and have him be a true heel.Maybe change a few things about the way he works like Neville has done.Ziggler is clearly talented but they need to retool some things and drastically improve his booking. |
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