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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on May 16, 2017 3:39:20 GMT -5
It's because in any fandom there are normal people and there are dickheads. The dickheads get loud and obnoxious which chases away/turns off/overpowers the normal people so the worst elements of fandom are there in the spotlight which then leads to new people in that fandom thinking that they should act like that so as to fit in.
It says it all that the chillest place that I post on is Something Awful. The general feeling there is 'shut the f*** up nobody cares' which means that obnoxious personalities tend to keep to themselves or just leave the site entirely.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on May 16, 2017 3:45:02 GMT -5
Given that people post vile comments (or worse) under their real names since social media became a thing I think the anonymity argument has gone. I think a post above hit on one of the big issues when it comes to self policing. If somebody starts to go a bit far IRL hopefully somebody they know that's removed from the situation might be able to talk sense into them. When it happens online they'll probably find others that share a similar mindset and that legitimises such behaviour in their minds. I don't think we can completely discount anonymity here either, just because there are people awful/stupid enough to say things like that under their real name. If nothing else, the feeling of anonymity might get people to start doing it, and they can get comfortable enough to start doing with their real names and photos. |
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Post by ANuclearError on May 16, 2017 4:34:29 GMT -5
The fetishisation and subsequent bastardisation of "free speech" is one of the most damaging things to have happened in recent years. It's been used to destroy any notion of tact, civility and decorum in online discussion.
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Arrow
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Post by Arrow on May 16, 2017 9:26:40 GMT -5
I think it’s just something you tend to see more and more of the deeper you go into any fandom. There’s this sense of entitlement, this belief that fans have the right to demand that the creators of a product they like do what they want. And if they don’t, if said product’s creators or writers decide to go in a different direction, there’s this sense that fans were personally wronged. That leads to stuff like… whatever it is that happened.
And then you factor in social media and how it allows a greater level of interaction between fans and creators…
Fandoms are still fun, but I’ve come to realize it’s best to just discuss these things with casual fans and not diehards. In my experience, casual fans are still capable of providing valid criticism and praise of a product they like without caring enough to harass creators or other fans over differences of opinion, or their own disappointments about the direction the product is going in.
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Post by Milkman Norm on May 16, 2017 10:10:14 GMT -5
On another not I can not stand fan theories. Any of them. You know what I like? Creator/Writer/Director theories.
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Post by abjordans on May 16, 2017 10:13:29 GMT -5
It is really off putting to me. Like, I would like to be able to discuss things I like, so I come to message boards or FB groups... But, like 90% of people hate watch the product. The three things I have the most fandom towards- pro wrestling, hip hop, and comics just so happen to be 3 of the things with the most notorious fan bases for this. It is like they hate the thing they claim to be interested in. I truly don't get it. I ignore and don't want to talk about things I don't like.
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Gus Richlen: Ruffian
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Post by Gus Richlen: Ruffian on May 16, 2017 10:13:43 GMT -5
On another not I can not stand fan theories. Any of them. You know what I like? Creator/Writer/Director theories. What's wrong with my theory of "Calvin from Calvin and Hobbes is really the son of Kung Lao and Mileena?" |
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Post by abjordans on May 16, 2017 10:16:18 GMT -5
We need to talk about the toxicity of people that want to paint fandoms with a broad brush before we talk about toxic fanbases. We also need and I stress the word need to talk about toxic positively.(oe of the reason I don't see FAN as a safe space even though I like it here) I also agree with this. This board, more than any other I have been to, veers too far into that "everything is offensive" territory A LOT. It gets very obnoxious sometimes. You couldn't even discuss things like the JBL/Mauro situation without people coming out of the woodwork being offended. |
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Dragonfly
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Post by Dragonfly on May 16, 2017 10:54:13 GMT -5
It's always been there. The internet just makes it more visible and allows every facet of every fandom to be at the forefront of the conversation. Look at sports. Since as long as I can remember people have been getting violent over soccer or football or whatever. THAT's toxic fandom, it just didn't have a name at the time. A handful of years ago, my brother bought a stack of old Starlog magazines from the late 80s. Each issue, without fail, had at least two letters to the editor that hoped that something vaguely terrible would happen to Gene Roddenberry. Why? Wesley Crusher. With Roddenberry (and to a lesser extent, Wil Wheaton) out of the way, Wesley would be free to die off screen. The thing that was so amazing about the letters weren't what they were saying, but how they were saying it. Every single one of them sounded like social media posts. The only difference was that it took two or three months for it to be published. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 11:07:41 GMT -5
It's always been there. The internet just makes it more visible and allows every facet of every fandom to be at the forefront of the conversation. Look at sports. Since as long as I can remember people have been getting violent over soccer or football or whatever. THAT's toxic fandom, it just didn't have a name at the time. A handful of years ago, my brother bought a stack of old Starlog magazines from the late 80s. Each issue, without fail, had at least two letters to the editor that hoped that something vaguely terrible would happen to Gene Roddenberry. Why? Wesley Crusher. With Roddenberry (and to a lesser extent, Wil Wheaton) out of the way, Wesley would be free to die off screen. The thing that was so amazing about the letters weren't what they were saying, but how they were saying it. Every single one of them sounded like social media posts. The only difference was that it took two or three months for it to be published. There you go. I guess the only difference now is people like that feel emboldened to speak out their toxic rhetoric more readily because it's easier to find like-minded people online. But really it's just the sadder side of fandom/human nature. That's why I have a hard time being that much of a fan of anything/anyone. It's not my creative endeavor and I feel VERY strange about trying to take any kind of ownership over it. |
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Demented
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Post by Demented on May 16, 2017 11:15:43 GMT -5
It's one of Britney Spears' better songs. Thanks. Now I'm going to have that song stuck in my head... again. |
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Post by BorneAgain on May 16, 2017 11:45:54 GMT -5
Ironically one of the most pleasant and agreeable fandoms is that of the Toxic Avengers franchise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 12:49:28 GMT -5
I just assign it to a jumble of things (young fans "wanting what they want," bad parenting, angry people getting angrier at stupid things, older fans getting real sick of their crap, the lack of context and interest in context becoming more uncontrollable, people realizing that fan is short for "fanatic" and finally acting accordingly) ..... I feel like if I thought about it more in depth I'd end up becoming some toxic monster spewing neon green hate at everyone I see....
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on May 16, 2017 12:50:11 GMT -5
It's not that it's anything new, it's just that with the growing presence of social media the floodgates have been opened, never to close again.
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Reflecto
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Post by Reflecto on May 16, 2017 14:04:05 GMT -5
I think it’s just something you tend to see more and more of the deeper you go into any fandom. There’s this sense of entitlement, this belief that fans have the right to demand that the creators of a product they like do what they want. And if they don’t, if said product’s creators or writers decide to go in a different direction, there’s this sense that fans were personally wronged. That leads to stuff like… whatever it is that happened. And then you factor in social media and how it allows a greater level of interaction between fans and creators… Fandoms are still fun, but I’ve come to realize it’s best to just discuss these things with casual fans and not diehards. In my experience, casual fans are still capable of providing valid criticism and praise of a product they like without caring enough to harass creators or other fans over differences of opinion, or their own disappointments about the direction the product is going in. This ties into the other problem with fan entitlement...the fact that creation has gotten so big on the Internet. Fanfiction, fanart, even fan theories are perfectly fine as it is...but as it happens, the more and more they do, and the more and more success you have with your fanfiction or fan art or fan theories, then eventually you reach a tipping point where it goes past "I demand the creators of this product I like do what I want" when it becomes "Cut the middleman out. I'M as qualified as THOSE jerks are to run this...heck, my fanfics/fanart are more popular than anything they could make. Just get rid of THOSE creators of the property I like and put ME in charge, and let ME write the product/do art for the product so I can run this stuff the RIGHT way!" |
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Post by Hit Girl on May 16, 2017 14:11:46 GMT -5
More like toxic society.
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Dragonfly
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Post by Dragonfly on May 16, 2017 14:32:50 GMT -5
On another not I can not stand fan theories. Any of them. You know what I like? Creator/Writer/Director theories. I'm okay with a few of them - Homer Simpson is in a coma, Stan Lee might be a Watcher, my personal belief that the upcoming Universal monster universe is building to a giant Avengers-style team up where they fight Abbott and Costello - but I'm with you for the most part. It's even worse when fans take said theory and act like it's a verifiable fact. As for the topic at hand, I think the two most toxic fandoms that I've ever been a part of is regional (and lower... much lower) indie wrestling and of all things, SiriusXM. Talking about the booking in your local indie is one thing. It's quite another to have full-on, oftentimes off color, opinions on promotions/bookers/wrestlers NO ONE has ever heard of. As for the latter... Ever see a 100 page long thread dedicated to debating how many times Pearl Jam is played in a twelve-hour period? I have. It gets really strange, really quickly. |
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 16, 2017 14:38:41 GMT -5
It's one of Britney Spears' better songs. Thanks. Now I'm going to have that song stuck in my head... again. You're addicted to it 'cause you know that it's toxic. dunna nunna nah, nee noo noo noo noo |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2017 14:45:57 GMT -5
A handful of years ago, my brother bought a stack of old Starlog magazines from the late 80s. Each issue, without fail, had at least two letters to the editor that hoped that something vaguely terrible would happen to Gene Roddenberry. Why? Wesley Crusher. With Roddenberry (and to a lesser extent, Wil Wheaton) out of the way, Wesley would be free to die off screen. The thing that was so amazing about the letters weren't what they were saying, but how they were saying it. Every single one of them sounded like social media posts. The only difference was that it took two or three months for it to be published. There you go. I guess the only difference now is people like that feel emboldened to speak out their toxic rhetoric more readily because it's easier to find like-minded people online. But really it's just the sadder side of fandom/human nature. That's why I have a hard time being that much of a fan of anything/anyone. It's not my creative endeavor and I feel VERY strange about trying to take any kind of ownership over it. It goes back very far. H.P. Lovecraft would tear magazine writers a new asshole with his invectives against their writing and he wasn't alone in that. |
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 16, 2017 15:07:35 GMT -5
We need to talk about the toxicity of people that want to paint fandoms with a broad brush before we talk about toxic fanbases. We also need and I stress the word need to talk about toxic positively.(oe of the reason I don't see FAN as a safe space even though I like it here) I also agree with this. This board, more than any other I have been to, veers too far into that "everything is offensive" territory A LOT. It gets very obnoxious sometimes. You couldn't even discuss things like the JBL/Mauro situation without people coming out of the woodwork being offended. There's a balance that has to be kept, though - the person you're responding to was discussing how places like this don't always feel like safe spaces, while your side counters that places like this go too far in reigning in things that are offensive to others. They're diametrically opposed in that regard. If we go total safe space, we have to eliminate everything that offends; if we want to give more freedom to views that offend or upset others, we lose that safe space feeling that some appreciate. There's no real one way to go about it. We at FAN do our best to find a balance. Sure, not everyone's going to like everything, not everyone's going to agree, but we strive - and we aren't always perfect - to take all views into account and make this place as accessible to everybody as we can. |
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