|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 3, 2017 8:55:04 GMT -5
They haven't since like 2004. Even Cena and Batista at their heights were both assholes much of time.
|
|
WIENERS=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
Hug?
Posts: 6,589
|
Post by WIENERS=$$$ on Jul 3, 2017 9:08:26 GMT -5
[/quote]Bryan really represents a shift in the fanbase and what the fanbase considered "cool", too.
The fanbase has shifted more in favor of the nerdier, "fandom obsession" sort of audience, and Bryan's hippie sensibilities and total wrestling-obsession-geekdom hit on the modern wrestling fan zeitgeist, and we've seen guys like New Day follow in that wake.
The other thing that seems to be really popular is the Snarky Jerk-Ass (in the vein of guys like Punk or Owens), but they tend to get booked as heels, which makes the faces look like chumps because most of them either don't have the promo chops to defend themselves against it/hit back (eg : Ryback), or aren't allowed to show it (eg : Kofi).[/quote]
I agree, and unfortunately, the way Reigns is being pushed shows how little Vince understands today's culture, and no one in Vince's ear to help him understand. He's trying to create a PG badass, but it isn't what the audience wants to support, due to how poorly he is booked and written. He hears acts like New Day being cheered, and he scratches his head, but he maintains the act because it appeals to kids and sells.
Why the decision to break up a similar act at the peak of their popularity, instead of trying to evolve the act, is baffling?
|
|
Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,743
|
Post by Rican on Jul 3, 2017 9:13:56 GMT -5
Like everything wrong with the company I think it all boils down to everything having to appease a 71 year old man who is completely out of touch with modern culture and refuses to let his control go. Vince seems to have gotten really bitter and mean spirited (or has gotten more so, idk) and it shows in the writing. Like the way Bayley is booked and splitting up Enzo and Cass just feels like Vince saying f*** YOU just for the sake of doing it.
|
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 3, 2017 9:16:27 GMT -5
They haven't since like 2004. Even Cena and Batista at their heights were both assholes much of time. I mean, I'm not going to go ahead and say that Rock or Austin weren't assholes big time during the Attitude Era because, well, they were. At the same time, and I've said this before, but the reason that people don't point out how big an asshole those two were most of the time was because the heels were always much much worse. Austin beat some people up? Sure, that's bad. Vince tried to end his career, get him fired or seriously injured all because he rejected his invitation to join his side when he was growing in popularity. Roman beat up a guy because he was showing his wife how much he loved him, a woman she called a whore the week earlier for pretty much no reason whatsoever. Why should I root for that guy? |
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 3, 2017 9:20:55 GMT -5
That and both guys weren't portrayed as pure white meat babyfaces. They both had edges to them that were acknowledged on commentary. If Austin or Rock went too far, JR mentioned it. That is lacking now.
|
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 3, 2017 9:26:09 GMT -5
That and both guys weren't portrayed as pure white meat babyfaces. They both had edges to them that were acknowledged on commentary. If Austin or Rock went too far, JR mentioned it. That is lacking now. I always remember when Batista came back after being injured by Mark Henry, beat him on an episode of Smackdown and then proceeded to do the same thing Henry did to him and beat the crap out of him with chairs. Like...I get having an edge, but Michael Cole was being all 'Yeah! Get him! Get your revenge for what he did!' and it was like '...Cole, he won the match. He did it without trying to kill the dude. He doesn't need to then kill the dude'. I'm not expecting babyfaces to take all the beatdowns like men, but unless the occasion calls for it, faces shouldn't really be doing the same thing heels did to them. It feels wrong, basically. But then I always had a theory that the Smackdown creative at the time wanted Batista to be a heel so badly but they couldn't because the crowd was reacting to him too well. |
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
HaHa U FaLL 4 LaVa TriK
Posts: 46,943 
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Jul 3, 2017 9:32:49 GMT -5
That and both guys weren't portrayed as pure white meat babyfaces. They both had edges to them that were acknowledged on commentary. If Austin or Rock went too far, JR mentioned it. That is lacking now. I always remember when Batista came back after being injured by Mark Henry, beat him on an episode of Smackdown and then proceeded to do the same thing Henry did to him and beat the crap out of him with chairs. Like...I get having an edge, but Michael Cole was being all 'Yeah! Get him! Get your revenge for what he did!' and it was like '...Cole, he won the match. He did it without trying to kill the dude. He doesn't need to then kill the dude'. I'm not expecting babyfaces to take all the beatdowns like men, but unless the occasion calls for it, faces shouldn't really be doing the same thing heels did to them. It feels wrong, basically. But then I always had a theory that the Smackdown creative at the time wanted Batista to be a heel so badly but they couldn't because the crowd was reacting to him too well. The most comical "Why the hell is he still a face???" moments were when John Cena gave those brutal unsolicited beatdowns to Jack Swagger. |
|
auph10imitated
Dennis Stamp
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 4,951
|
Post by auph10imitated on Jul 3, 2017 9:36:33 GMT -5
I wonder how much the Attitude Era has had impact on how WWE writes their characters today. The AE came about during desperate times, as well as a change in the social climate of the US. People wanted to cheer for the "bad guys" and they did, so much even that they became the hottest acts in both WWF (Austin) and WCW (NWO). Why were they being cheered I feel can be summed up when you look at the Rock's career. He was as white-meat, babyface as they got, and not only was he not getting over, but he was getting death threats from the audience. It wasn't until they made him heel, and let him create a character that was more relatable and enjoyable, and also played to his strengths, that fans begun to love him, despite him being a heel. Same happened to Austin. When Austin 3:16 happened, he was a heel, but he slowly transitioned into an anti-hero role, which was unheard of at the time, and the rest is history. Both the Rock and Austin became popular, when they were heels, and I feel like this has been WWE's model ever since, i.e. John Cena and CM Punk. Debut a babyface, make fans hate how lame he is, turn babyface heel with a relatable/"cool" gimmick, wait to see if fans appreciate it, turn heel back to face with the same gimmick. Why they can't debut a babyface with the relatable/"cool" gimmick in the first place to see if it gets over is hard to say. Enzo and Cass had that, and they threw it away, because maybe they see more long-term value in Cass. Now WWE might work on making Enzo a sympathetic, underdog babyface with the same relatable/"cool" gimmick, but how they use him is what will make or break his career, that and whether he can work as a singles wrestler. After Daniel Bryan left, who many consider to be the last-great babyface, there has been this huge gap the the WWE for someone who has talent and can get, organic/real sympathy that fans gravitate to. What I don't understand is why WWE is in no hurry to fill this gap? It's not like they don't have a roster of talent. Hell, both Zayn and Bayley should be playing this part. The issue is, and WWE need to realize this soon, is that there's a difference between making your babyface an underdog and making them look like a chump. People hate chumps, and they just made one of their top acts look like a chump. My point is that the formula no longer works. What worked in the 80's, did not work in the 90's, and what worked in the 90's, has become a weird mix of both time periods in the present. The "money-paying" audience hates the good guys again, but the problem is merchandise is selling in the PG Era because the same "money-paying" audience has kids, and kids love Reigns and Cena, and that is the core demographic, so no one is turning heel and making kids cry (brah). Fans can be so defiant though that if they they debuted them as a cool face to begin with then they probably would still shit on it. Creative cannot win sometimes. One thing I do realise is wrestlers need to go through mishaps with characters, progression and transitions to truly find out who they are and thats the beauty of wrestling, would The Rock's story be as good if he just debuted as The Rock we knew in 2000? Same with Austin and many others. |
|
|
|
Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 3, 2017 9:37:16 GMT -5
Rock and Austin were antihero-ish figures at a time where people were all f***ing about anti-heroes. Edgy, darker protagonists who were rougher and more aggressive were really in at the time, and more traditional good guys were just brushed off and considered outdated. Now, DC putting out bleak, mopey films gets them torn to shreds and the only movie to come out of that universe to get positive response across the board was Wonder Woman. All the while, Marvel is making bank off of a Captain America who is in every way the good guy standing up for what's right. Hell, even the new Wolverine movie takes the Ultimate Comics Badass Snarly Guy and turns him into a father figure who's sole concern is a child he wants to protect. Same for the new God of War game. People accept more complicated or outright noble heroes now, and WWE has some in the likes of Sami Zayn and Bayley. But all the writing does is beat the two of them down to no end.
|
|
|
|
Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jul 3, 2017 9:40:33 GMT -5
Guy who comes so close (but often loses) -? I think you could slot Mick Foley in here. Or Owen Hart during some of his face runs. |
|
WIENERS=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
Hug?
Posts: 6,589
|
Post by WIENERS=$$$ on Jul 3, 2017 9:42:31 GMT -5
I wonder how much the Attitude Era has had impact on how WWE writes their characters today. The AE came about during desperate times, as well as a change in the social climate of the US. People wanted to cheer for the "bad guys" and they did, so much even that they became the hottest acts in both WWF (Austin) and WCW (NWO). Why were they being cheered I feel can be summed up when you look at the Rock's career. He was as white-meat, babyface as they got, and not only was he not getting over, but he was getting death threats from the audience. It wasn't until they made him heel, and let him create a character that was more relatable and enjoyable, and also played to his strengths, that fans begun to love him, despite him being a heel. Same happened to Austin. When Austin 3:16 happened, he was a heel, but he slowly transitioned into an anti-hero role, which was unheard of at the time, and the rest is history. Both the Rock and Austin became popular, when they were heels, and I feel like this has been WWE's model ever since, i.e. John Cena and CM Punk. Debut a babyface, make fans hate how lame he is, turn babyface heel with a relatable/"cool" gimmick, wait to see if fans appreciate it, turn heel back to face with the same gimmick. Why they can't debut a babyface with the relatable/"cool" gimmick in the first place to see if it gets over is hard to say. Enzo and Cass had that, and they threw it away, because maybe they see more long-term value in Cass. Now WWE might work on making Enzo a sympathetic, underdog babyface with the same relatable/"cool" gimmick, but how they use him is what will make or break his career, that and whether he can work as a singles wrestler. After Daniel Bryan left, who many consider to be the last-great babyface, there has been this huge gap the the WWE for someone who has talent and can get, organic/real sympathy that fans gravitate to. What I don't understand is why WWE is in no hurry to fill this gap? It's not like they don't have a roster of talent. Hell, both Zayn and Bayley should be playing this part. The issue is, and WWE need to realize this soon, is that there's a difference between making your babyface an underdog and making them look like a chump. People hate chumps, and they just made one of their top acts look like a chump. My point is that the formula no longer works. What worked in the 80's, did not work in the 90's, and what worked in the 90's, has become a weird mix of both time periods in the present. The "money-paying" audience hates the good guys again, but the problem is merchandise is selling in the PG Era because the same "money-paying" audience has kids, and kids love Reigns and Cena, and that is the core demographic, so no one is turning heel and making kids cry (brah). Fans can be so defiant though that if they they debuted them as a cool face to begin with then they probably would still shit on it. Creative cannot win sometimes. One thing I do realise is wrestlers need to go through mishaps with characters, progression and transitions to truly find out who they are and thats the beauty of wrestling, would The Rock's story be as good if he just debuted as The Rock we knew in 2000? Same with Austin and many others. I agree with wrestler's needing to evolve, however, they had this act with Enzo and Cass, whom the fans loved, and dropped it like a bad habit, because reasons? |
|
|
|
Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 3, 2017 9:44:41 GMT -5
I always remember when Batista came back after being injured by Mark Henry, beat him on an episode of Smackdown and then proceeded to do the same thing Henry did to him and beat the crap out of him with chairs. Like...I get having an edge, but Michael Cole was being all 'Yeah! Get him! Get your revenge for what he did!' and it was like '...Cole, he won the match. He did it without trying to kill the dude. He doesn't need to then kill the dude'. I'm not expecting babyfaces to take all the beatdowns like men, but unless the occasion calls for it, faces shouldn't really be doing the same thing heels did to them. It feels wrong, basically. But then I always had a theory that the Smackdown creative at the time wanted Batista to be a heel so badly but they couldn't because the crowd was reacting to him too well. The most comical "Why the hell is he still a face???" moments were when John Cena gave those brutal unsolicited beatdowns to Jack Swagger. Those were my favourite ones of those, when the good guy would beat the ever loving crap out of someone because they're angry at another dude. Like...I can get they're a bad guy outside of their storyline but...they didn't do anything personal to you. Like, when John Cena beat the crap out of Michael Cole several months after his storyline ended. Dude hadn't even been a dick for ages, then suddenly he's got BBQ sauce all over him. |
|
|
|
Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 3, 2017 12:39:10 GMT -5
I wonder if this is just one of those things that's been totally screwed up by the history of worked shoots we've all had to deal with over the years. It's impossible to see a bigtime face as an underdog, because we know they've been chosen by the bookers to be a bigtime face. And it's hard to just enjoy the show on its own terms, because we know there's real world perks these bigtime faces get.
But yeah, I agree with other people the biggest problem is Vince being stuck with an 80s action hero model that is hopelessly and embarrassingly outdated now.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,555
|
Post by Dub H on Jul 3, 2017 12:48:05 GMT -5
I always remember when Batista came back after being injured by Mark Henry, beat him on an episode of Smackdown and then proceeded to do the same thing Henry did to him and beat the crap out of him with chairs. Like...I get having an edge, but Michael Cole was being all 'Yeah! Get him! Get your revenge for what he did!' and it was like '...Cole, he won the match. He did it without trying to kill the dude. He doesn't need to then kill the dude'. I'm not expecting babyfaces to take all the beatdowns like men, but unless the occasion calls for it, faces shouldn't really be doing the same thing heels did to them. It feels wrong, basically. But then I always had a theory that the Smackdown creative at the time wanted Batista to be a heel so badly but they couldn't because the crowd was reacting to him too well. The most comical "Why the hell is he still a face???" moments were when John Cena gave those brutal unsolicited beatdowns to Jack Swagger. "He injured my father,guess it happens. Guy hit me in the head with a steel chair to win,well BRUSH IT OFF. That guy literally stabbed me but I can live with that. He won a match where HE WAS BOOKED TO COMPETE? NOW THAT IS TOO FAR." |
|
|
|
Post by Supercheese on Jul 3, 2017 15:24:05 GMT -5
Face - underdog, ass kicker, franchise player, guy who comes so close (but often loses), veteran with some gas in the tank, comedy. Heels - guy who we know is good, but cheats anyway because he can, coward, monster, manipulator, serious brawler By using your examples I thought I would pick out a few good examples in each category. Underdog - 1-2-3 Kid circa 1993, Ass Kicker - Ken Shamrock circa 1997 Franchise Player - Hulk Hogan circa 1987, John Cena circa 2010 Guy who comes so close (but often loses) -? Veteran with some gas in the tank - Superfly Jimmy Snuka circa 1991, The Undertaker circa 2007 Comedy - Chris Jericho circa 2000 Guy who we know is good, but cheats anyway because he can - Model Rick Martel circa 1990, Mr Perfect circa 1990 Coward - Owen Hart circa 1994, Christian circa 2004 Monster - Vader circa 1992, Brock Lesnar circa 2002 Manipulator - Jake The Snake Roberts circa 1991, Doink circa 1993 Serious brawler - Haku circa 1989, Bad News Brown circa 1989 I disagree entirely. The reason they aren't building new faces or heels is because they are using the same formula over and over with diminishing returns. Underdog - We've had plenty of underdogs, Slater, Ryder, Zayn to an extent. Ass Kicker - Dean Ambrose could be described as that, also Reigns Franchise Player - Randy Orton, Face Rollins, Face Styles veteran - y2j comedy - Breezango Coward - Miz/Owens Monster - Strowman Manipulator - Wyatt Series Brawler - Joe/Owens when need be |
|
riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323 
|
Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jul 3, 2017 17:46:05 GMT -5
It's a combination of them not knowing how to write babyfaces or heels. Babyfaces don't act like good guys that are essentially fighting for the right cause, heels don't act like heels because they're not doing anything remotely evil. Why should I boo Rusev or Mahal? Because they're foreigners, darker skinned, and can speak another language because foreigners= evil? Why should I cheer for Cena, Roman, or Orton? They don't do anything remotely resembling the act of a good guy.
The problem is fans and even media have become so accustomed to the good guys acting like douches that it's accepted now. I honestly feel the anti-hero phase has kind of died down, as I think there's an even bigger audience for a babyface that actually acts like one. With the massive success of Daniel Bryan, Captain America, and Wonder Woman there's a core that's yearning for the feel good hero/heroine. Heels can't act like heels because of the overly politically correct environment and the WWE being afraid of their shareholders and backlash. Growing up you saw why Flair, Rude, DiBiase, Perfect, Owen, Shawn, Lawler, and early Piper were heels because they did and said horrible things and acts. Now? The heel is just a guy who is just having a bad day and doesn't create any form of friction.
|
|
WIENERS=$$$
Hank Scorpio
Gif Master Extraordinaire
Hug?
Posts: 6,589
|
Post by WIENERS=$$$ on Jul 3, 2017 18:48:17 GMT -5
It's a combination of them not knowing how to write babyfaces or heels. Babyfaces don't act like good guys that are essentially fighting for the right cause, heels don't act like heels because they're not doing anything remotely evil. Why should I boo Rusev or Mahal? Because they're foreigners, darker skinned, and can speak another language because foreigners= evil? Why should I cheer for Cena, Roman, or Orton? They don't do anything remotely resembling the act of a good guy. The problem is fans and even media have become so accustomed to the good guys acting like douches that it's accepted now. I honestly feel the anti-hero phase has kind of died down, as I think there's an even bigger audience for a babyface that actually acts like one. With the massive success of Daniel Bryan, Captain America, and Wonder Woman there's a core that's yearning for the feel good hero/heroine. Heels can't act like heels because of the overly politically correct environment and the WWE being afraid of their shareholders and backlash. Growing up you saw why Flair, Rude, DiBiase, Perfect, Owen, Shawn, Lawler, and early Piper were heels because they did and said horrible things and acts. Now? The heel is just a guy who is just having a bad day and doesn't create any form of friction. This. It really isn't a divide between poorly written faces or heels. Hell, one of this year's best segments was Miz sticking up for himself on Talking Smack where it was hard to disagree with what he was saying as he was putting Bryan in his place. The "cool" heel dynamic is such a double-edged sword, especially in the company that has a hard time producing a sympathetic babyface anymore. If it is that the times are a changin', or creative being so far from capable to do proper character development, like has been said, the current formula is not working. |
|
EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
|
Post by EyeofTyr on Jul 3, 2017 20:53:32 GMT -5
Occasionally.
It usually happens when a talent gets a say in what they're saying and they're motivated to do something or you get the occasional idea that was clearly some writer's baby that somehow managed to get onto the show that was obviously tailor made for a talent that's involved in it rather than the cookie cutter usual shtick that people are copy & pasted into.
But it's becoming more and more seldom we see this. Unfortunately.
|
|
|
|
Post by thegame415 on Jul 3, 2017 22:29:25 GMT -5
My picks for the categories I came up with.
Underdog - X-Pac, Austin and Mick Foley
Ass Kicker - Brock Lesnar, Roman Reigns, Dudleyz
Franchise Player - Hogan, Rock, Cena
Guy who comes so close (but often loses) - Dolph Ziggler, Jeff Hardy
Veteran with some gas in the tank- Undertaker, Ric Flair
Comedy - Chris Jericho, New Day
Guy who we know is good, but cheats anyway because he can -
Triple H and Ric Flair
Coward - Jerry Lawler, Miz
Monster - Braun Strowman, Brock Lesnar, Kane, Umaga
Manipulator - Jake The Snake Roberts, Ted Dibiase, Undertaker
Serious brawler - Sheamus, Finlay, Benoit
|
|
Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
Posts: 16,743
|
Post by Rican on Jul 3, 2017 22:35:55 GMT -5
Well, the Enzo segment tonight was a step in the right direction
|
|
