Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Aug 13, 2017 18:14:36 GMT -5
Uh... how is Vince flipping out that they are wasting Cena on Cena? It even said Vince already didn't like Ziggler before John gave his honest opinion of working with him. The idea that he's slumming it with people who are better wrestlers than him and have had to work for opportunities rather than being the McMahons' pet project. This stuff isn't necessarily on Cena, but he's the manifestation of it. And his burial of people he sees as inferior doesn't help. Dolph is really not any different, to be frank. WWE is the only place he's really ever worked in any substantial way. They even debuted in almost identical fashion (as singles, anyway), with Dolph fighting Batista and losing after a noble effort to put him over, like Kurt Angle with Cena. Difference being, one blew up in popularity with the rap gimmick after getting close to possibly just being released (Cena), and the other guy had WWE trying their damnedest to get him heat as a heel, putting him with Vickie Guerrero, etc. I'm not claiming WWE has bent over backwards for Dolph, but he's been leading a pretty charmed life more often than not on the roster.
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Post by romanstylesiii on Aug 13, 2017 18:15:39 GMT -5
I know this is gonna be a shit storm but Cena usually has a decent eye for talent. All the people that he reportedly disliked were kinda lame in-ring. This is ironic, as Cena may have evolved into an amazing wrestler, but was critically panned by almost everyone during the first 3 years of his run
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 18:17:00 GMT -5
The idea that he's slumming it with people who are better wrestlers than him and have had to work for opportunities rather than being the McMahons' pet project. This stuff isn't necessarily on Cena, but he's the manifestation of it. And his burial of people he sees as inferior doesn't help. Dolph is really not any different, to be frank. WWE is the only place he's really ever worked in any substantial way. They even debuted in almost identical fashion (as singles, anyway), with Dolph fighting Batista and losing after a noble effort to put him over, like Kurt Angle with Cena. Difference being, one blew up in popularity with the rap gimmick after getting close to possibly just being released (Cena), and the other guy had WWE trying their damnedest to get him heat as a heel, putting him with Vickie Guerrero, etc. I'm not claiming WWE has bent over backwards for Dolph, but he's been leading a pretty charmed life more often than not on the roster. Then when he is over they do f*** all with it.
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JCBaggee
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Post by JCBaggee on Aug 13, 2017 18:22:25 GMT -5
And then Cena stole his girlfriend, killed his push, and tied Ric Flair's title wins. WOOOOOOOO
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Aug 13, 2017 18:23:18 GMT -5
I know this is gonna be a shit storm but Cena usually has a decent eye for talent. All the people that he reportedly disliked were kinda lame in-ring. This is ironic, as Cena may have evolved into an amazing wrestler, but was critically panned by almost everyone during the first 3 years of his run I suppose the people he worked with saw that he had something. Jericho was championing him when he was a nothing babyface just off of his OVW promos.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2017 18:38:11 GMT -5
Cena might have awkward moments but he is an all-time great worker and has had the most great matches in the wwe in the last decade.Wrestling isn't about moves or crazy spots it's about telling a story through pretend fighting and getting the fans invested and them spending money on the product and there are very few wrestlers in wwf/e history that have been able to do that at the level of John Cena.While Ziggler is a guy that always does the same stuff for years and years and never changes and then is shocked he's always in the same spot.Ziggler does 20 moves when 2 moves and some selling would get a much better reaction
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Post by "Trickster Dogg" James Jesse on Aug 13, 2017 18:47:22 GMT -5
One can do a wrestling move in such a way where it looks interesting and believable, but one can also tell a good story in the ring. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, nor is anyone wrong in wanting both.
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mizerable
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Post by mizerable on Aug 13, 2017 19:02:35 GMT -5
Because that's how it works, you only rise to the top if the top guys in the company think you're good enough. It's not as if Cena initially got over on the fan base being unified behind him or something. He did feud with respected guys on his way up and Im sure guys like Eddie, Taker and Angle gave their feedback to Vince too. Especially Taker. Because that's how it works, you only rise to the top if the top guys in the company think you're good enough. It's not as if Cena initially got over on the fan base being unified behind him or something. Punks whole point was that he succeeded in spite of the system, and when he emerged from it and tried to point back saying 'sure i survived, but after coming through this insanity, can i suggest a few things' HHH went 'you made it, therefore the system is perfect' the story made that perfectly clear. I guess my issue is that Dolph isn't some clumsy wrestler. I'm not singing his praises, but they've had a history of not striking while the iron is hot with the guy. I remember when Mysterio was said not to want to put him over some reason, so they eventually had Morrison do it. As long as he isn't a backstage problem or a hazard in the ring, I don't know what the deal is. If the f***er is over, he's OVER. It shouldn't take a lead guy to "feel out" a guy to see if they can handle something. That's been the problem with this goddamn company for years. It's the reason why you haven't seen many quality stars rise, because you have these vets that are all 'eh, I don't know, he called a couple moves in the ring I wouldn't have' or something. This isn't even a gripe in favor of Dolph as much as it's a stupid business decision. And I'm not in any way a Dolph Ziggler fan.
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Post by angryfan on Aug 13, 2017 19:06:02 GMT -5
This is actually amazing psychologically. Cena is not wrong if he feels that DOlf doesn't evolve or change or adapt, because he doesn't. He is who he is, he does what he does, because that is what the company wants of him. So he does it.
Cena is who he is, does what he does, and unless adding in "Preacher voice" promos, swapping accents, or the occasional new move is considered evolving, then Cena hasn't done that since he went from generic as all hell babyface to the rapper gimmick. After that he was "Let's redo Hogan, and....go".
Thing is, here's my criticism for both. Dolph is where he is with what he brings to the table, and even if he started doing a million different things, at this point he's set in stone, he is goign nowhere, and the last few years should prove that. Cena is...well, he's the same, but I don't think in all the "you need to want it like I did" bullshit that comes out, I don't think he gets what has gone on and continues to.
Others in the company, like, oh, Rusev for example among others, they start to get hot, and then gimmick or angle is often changed, and always with anyone not American, to something that takes a guy building momentum and puts him in the "this is the foil for John's gimmick, so he can go all Super 'Murca and it'll be like Hogan vs Iron Sheik". But it's not like that, it's just "Hey this guy had momentum, now he doesn't, and no one cares about him, so he's a bust and we wasted a program with Cena on him, why does this just keep happening?".
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