Urethra Franklin
King Koopa
When Toronto sports teams lose, Alison Brie is sad
Posts: 11,090
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Post by Urethra Franklin on Dec 15, 2017 16:09:33 GMT -5
I was listening to a recent episode of a Bryan & Vinny Show and they were watching an old Nitro.
Alvarez said that in two minutes, Eric Bischoff made him desperately want to see Ric Flair kick his ass thanks to the promo he cut. He then went into the difference between a great talker and a good promo.
He used The Miz an example. He said that Miz is a great talker, but only once has he cut a great promo and that was on Daniel Bryan during that Talking Smack episode, because only then did Alvarez want to see Miz get destroyed.
Basically, Alvarez contends that in order to be a great promo, a response must be elicited. If you’re a heel, you hafta make the audience want to see you get your just desserts and if you’re a face, you have to get the audience onside with whatever cause you’re championing.
So firstly, do you agree with Bryan Alvarez that there is a difference between being a good talker and a good promo?
Also, can you be a good promo without being a good talker?
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Dec 15, 2017 16:16:12 GMT -5
Well, first of all, and I can't stress this enough, Bryan Alvarez is an idiot and it's actually astounding how someone can study the business for so long and have very little understanding of it. Everybody can't be Big Daddy Meltz.
That being said, you can absolutely be a good talker without being a good promo. Countless guys are. Just because you are well spoken and easy to understand doesn't mean I'm gonna give a f*** what you are talking about. There are various things that go into a good promo but yeah, just speaking clearly doesn't automatically make you a good promo.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Dec 15, 2017 18:29:18 GMT -5
The word "promo" has it in its name. Something said that promotes an appearance/show/event/match. It's not a good promo if it doesn't put butts in seats. Or rather, it's not an effective promo.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2017 20:12:43 GMT -5
The word "promo" has it in its name. Something said that promotes an appearance/show/event/match. It's not a good promo if it doesn't put butts in seats. Or rather, it's not an effective promo. While I agree with your point it seems like Alvarez is inventing a distinction between the two terms. It seems to me every else in wrestling using those two terms interchangeably. |
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Post by eJm on Dec 16, 2017 6:18:38 GMT -5
The word "promo" has it in its name. Something said that promotes an appearance/show/event/match. It's not a good promo if it doesn't put butts in seats. Or rather, it's not an effective promo. Yeah, that seems accurate. If it doesn't do a good job in hyping you up to see a potential match between two guys or even an event where feuds are going to come to a head, it's not really doing its job. One of the biggest problems of the Reign of Terror with HHH, for example, was that the only promo HHH could cut was the one saying "I'm the best, I'm the champ, look at my greatness" which, for me, didn't make me want someone to kick his ass, it made me wonder why I was watching. It wasn't setting up to a match and the only time it did that was the rare occasion someone interrupted the promo. It also helps when you're a personality that people can invest in. Jeff Hardy is and always was a bad talker, he never had the voice for it. The people didn't care and cheered regardless because he had an attachable personality where you want to see him beat whoever he was facing. Same with Rey Mysterio and many others. |
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Glitch
King Koopa
Not Going To Die; Childs, we're goin' out to give Blair the test. If he tries to make it back here and we're not with him... burn him.
Watching you.
Posts: 12,717 
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Post by Glitch on Dec 16, 2017 7:25:59 GMT -5
Instead of promo, I would say worker. As in you can work the crowd.
I see talker and promo as the same thing. You can cut a promo, but can you use it to work?
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 16, 2017 10:12:10 GMT -5
The word "promo" has it in its name. Something said that promotes an appearance/show/event/match. It's not a good promo if it doesn't put butts in seats. Or rather, it's not an effective promo. Yeah, that seems accurate. If it doesn't do a good job in hyping you up to see a potential match between two guys or even an event where feuds are going to come to a head, it's not really doing its job. One of the biggest problems of the Reign of Terror with HHH, for example, was that the only promo HHH could cut was the one saying "I'm the best, I'm the champ, look at my greatness" which, for me, didn't make me want someone to kick his ass, it made me wonder why I was watching. It wasn't setting up to a match and the only time it did that was the rare occasion someone interrupted the promo. It also helps when you're a personality that people can invest in. Jeff Hardy is and always was a bad talker, he never had the voice for it. The people didn't care and cheered regardless because he had an attachable personality where you want to see him beat whoever he was facing. Same with Rey Mysterio and many others. Spot on to both posts. A talker can sound smooth on the mic, can string nice sentences together and come off as confident all day, but can they get fans to actively put time and money down to see whatever event they're building up to? Can you talk people through the doors? It's why Dusty and Flair were such masters: both men could talk themselves up something huge, but both had the uncanny ability to make their opponents seem threatening...even if they did it by pretending their opponent didn't threaten them, e.g. Flair down talking Ronnie Garvin to mask that he was legitimately nervous Garvin could land a lucky KO on him. They each knew how to make a feud's outcome sound like life or death. Plus, both men knew how to cut promos that integrated their own feuds into other feuds that were happening around the promotion, subtly sending a message to fans that you really couldn't afford to miss the entire show. The rest is often just noise; it's ok to do "get yourself over" talking, it's necessary sometimes, but it doesn't do much good if it doesn't encourage fans to seek your product out and want to spend money on it. |
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Post by KofiMania on Dec 16, 2017 10:15:50 GMT -5
I think Bray Wyatt would be a good example of a great talker who is not a good promo.
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Post by eJm on Dec 16, 2017 10:19:01 GMT -5
I think Bray Wyatt would be a good example of a great talker who is not a good promo. I think there was a point where Bray was both. The problem came when he'd constantly lose all the time and he essentially became toothless with his words. He can say how his wrath'll come down on you all he wants but if he's never won a feud and paid off on all that...why take him seriously? It's not that different to what happens after a monster loses the first time. Unless you can keep them credible and both sides put the work in, why take their threat seriously? |
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 16, 2017 10:29:06 GMT -5
Mike Rotundo to me would be a good example of "good talker but a bad promo". IRS was a fun gimmick, but I wouldn't call Rotundo a super-charismatic guy.
I always felt HHH, when he isn't droning on to fill time, was an underrated promo. Some of his shorter promos later in his run, like the ones he did for the Bryan and Rollins matches, were awesome. He's not a super-smooth talker, but he can get me hyped for a match. Same with Bret Hart, he always came off like he believed everything he said. I'd also put Samoa Joe in that category, there's never a moment where I think he doesn't really want to beat somebody's ass.
Stars like Flair, Rock, Foley, Cena, etc. who are both great talkers and great promos are rare. Big E and Woods are gradually getting there, IMO.
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Post by eJm on Dec 16, 2017 10:33:38 GMT -5
Mike Rotundo to me would be a good example of "good talker but a bad promo". IRS was a fun gimmick, but I wouldn't call Rotundo a super-charismatic guy. I always felt HHH, when he isn't droning on to fill time, was an underrated promo. Some of his shorter promos later in his run, like the ones he did for the Bryan and Rollins matches, were awesome. He's not a super-smooth talker, but he can get me hyped for a match. Same with Bret Hart, he always came off like he believed everything he said. Stars like Flair, Rock, Foley, Cena, etc. who are both great talkers and great promos are rare. His promo after he cost him the title at Summerslam was pretty great because it made you DETEST the guy and want him to lose. The fact they somehow were able to follow it up months later and still make it work was much less a testament of creative and more on the people involved. The Rollins one, though, has the opposite problem where nothing was really followed up on and even when the promo to sell the match was finally cut, too little was actually answered from it to make it something to get excited by. Just my opinion, though. I'll put Bryan in that category, too. Bryan may not be Rock but he got 75,000 people to stick their arms up in their air and say one word over and over again and in this age, that's goddamn rare as hell. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 16, 2017 12:14:47 GMT -5
100% agreed on Samoa Joe: Joe gets into a bad habit of getting a bit "shouty" in his promos, but his earnestness and "realness" overcomes that. In a hideously over-scripted and micromanaged WWE, Joe is one of the few guys there who feels completely legitimate and like he believes in what he's doing and what he's saying; it's why I was willing to watch him against Brock Lesnar despite usually ignoring WWE, both guys just felt real in their exchanges...just too bad the match itself wasn't very interesting.
I appreciate these days how careful Kenny Omega is with how he phrases his promos. As a guy who's committed to putting clear stories into his matches, he seems to take great care to set things up through his promos leading up to the large events. It's evident now with the Jericho feud, as both men seem to be working to give their match an old school NWA feel, which indicates a bloody brawl if history is anything to go by.
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Post by wrestlingrecap on Dec 16, 2017 18:03:37 GMT -5
Sid Justice/Vicious is a good promo. Largely because you know he's not going to say anything that makes sense. So he's an example of a good promo but not a good talker.
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Post by dreamer75 on Dec 17, 2017 12:10:13 GMT -5
Sid Justice/Vicious is a good promo. Largely because you know he's not going to say anything that makes sense. So he's an example of a good promo but not a good talker. Put Steiner in that club as well. I can recite the math promo at anytime. |
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