How Many Full-Time Wrestlers Are There in the World (2017)?

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

This is the 2017/2018 edition of a question I asked back in 2014 in this thread: officialfan.proboards.com/thread/512763/full-time-wrestlers-world

Even though it was only three years ago I think the answer might be a bit different. Back then we were guessing around 1,000 plus another 1,000 that could get by with a side hustle.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

My guess is every contracted wwe talent, every full time njpw guy, and the upper echelon guys in roh.

Them aside we would need to examine it case by case. If they have a wrestling school to supplement their income, their popularity in prowrestling tees, if they own a share of the promotion.

Their twitter feed could also determine if they can earn a living just by wrestling. For example Greg Excellent from CZW I think he's a realtor, Dan Barry and Bill Carr have jobs outside of wrestling.

[edtheripper]

I know that JT Dunn, David Starr, Sugar Dunkerton, and Jake Parnell are all strictly wrestling for a living at this point.

[CertifiedBA]

Dec 20, 2017 23:13:57 GMT -5 edtheripper said:

I know that JT Dunn, David Starr, Sugar Dunkerton, and Jake Parnell are all strictly wrestling for a living at this point.

Seems like Dunn may run/own/etc Strong Style brand which a few wrestlers have been pushing. Starr seems to always be booked, whether it's stateside or internationally.

[edtheripper]

Dec 21, 2017 1:35:12 GMT -5 CertifiedBA said:

Dec 20, 2017 23:13:57 GMT -5 edtheripper said:

I know that JT Dunn, David Starr, Sugar Dunkerton, and Jake Parnell are all strictly wrestling for a living at this point.

Seems like Dunn may run/own/etc Strong Style brand which a few wrestlers have been pushing. Starr seems to always be booked, whether it's stateside or internationally.

To the best of my knowledge, he isn't involved in any of the day-to-day stuff involving Strong Style. A guy named Frankie Sbacchis is the owner and is the guy that handles just about everything relating to Strong Style Brand. I know that he and JT are close and that JT has opened a lot of doors for him into the world of pro wrestling but as far as I know, that is the end of his involvement.

Starr seems to work more than anyone else out there. He always seems to be booked consistently.

[CertifiedBA]

Starr is incredible and hopefully gets a look one day. Saw a match live with him and Jonathan Gresham, they each came out looking like champs.

[edtheripper]

Dec 21, 2017 1:59:05 GMT -5 CertifiedBA said:

Starr is incredible and hopefully gets a look one day. Saw a match live with him and Jonathan Gresham, they each came out looking like champs.

I love both of those guys. It blows my mind that Starr doesn't seem to be on anyone's radar. He is one of my favorites. I'm fortunate enough to live in RI and I get to attend Beyond Wresting every month, so I see him frequently.

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

Dec 21, 2017 1:49:05 GMT -5 edtheripper said:

Dec 21, 2017 1:35:12 GMT -5 CertifiedBA said:

Seems like Dunn may run/own/etc Strong Style brand which a few wrestlers have been pushing. Starr seems to always be booked, whether it's stateside or internationally.

To the best of my knowledge, he isn't involved in any of the day-to-day stuff involving Strong Style. A guy named Frankie Sbacchis is the owner and is the guy that handles just about everything relating to Strong Style Brand. I know that he and JT are close and that JT has opened a lot of doors for him into the world of pro wrestling but as far as I know, that is the end of his involvement.

Starr seems to work more than anyone else out there. He always seems to be booked consistently.

According to cagematch.net, David Starr has worked 156 matches to date so he’s up there. Not to derail my own thread but it makes me wonder who has worked the most matches in 2017 or 2016 for that matter. Some WWE guys get past the 200 mark some years (Kofi Kingston did in 2012, Cena did in 2011, Orton did in 2011 and 2013, Miz and Ziggler have come close). I’m not sure who if anyone had more than 200 matches this year. Even El Ligero had only (lol) 158 matches this year.

[lucas_lee]

Jonathan Gresham is a full time wrestler, I think Shenryon is too. Nick Gage is definitely a full time wrestler as is Matt Tremont (but now he's taking a sabbatical to run his promotion and store)

[Ultimo Gallos]

Vorell Walker is a full time wrestler. Purple Haze,the NOLA based guy, is a full time wrestler.

[Numero Dos]

Dec 21, 2017 8:36:05 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

Dec 21, 2017 1:49:05 GMT -5 edtheripper said:

To the best of my knowledge, he isn't involved in any of the day-to-day stuff involving Strong Style. A guy named Frankie Sbacchis is the owner and is the guy that handles just about everything relating to Strong Style Brand. I know that he and JT are close and that JT has opened a lot of doors for him into the world of pro wrestling but as far as I know, that is the end of his involvement.

Starr seems to work more than anyone else out there. He always seems to be booked consistently.

According to cagematch.net, David Starr has worked 156 matches to date so he’s up there. Not to derail my own thread but it makes me wonder who has worked the most matches in 2017 or 2016 for that matter. Some WWE guys get past the 200 mark some years (Kofi Kingston did in 2012, Cena did in 2011, Orton did in 2011 and 2013, Miz and Ziggler have come close). I’m not sure who if anyone had more than 200 matches this year. Even El Ligero had only (lol) 158 matches this year.

I think I saw El Ligero saying on Twitter a few weeks back that he was on something like 198 matches this year I just think some of the smaller and holiday camp shows he does aren’t on Cagematch. There’s a lot more guys and girls going full time in the UK in the last few years and the WWE UK deals will definitely help with that especially if they ever get the weekly show off the ground and sign more people.

[Deleted]

It's somewhere between 1,000-2,000. A lot of people forget about the fact that there are companies like CMLL, AAA, the Japanese women's promotions, etc. that provide a living for their talent. The number of average indie guys who have cheap living expenses (splitting rent on an apartment among 3 or 4 workers, and then wrestling on a few shows per week) who get by doing nothing but wrestling may surprise a lot of people. Not just speaking about making a living, but on the subject of who's wrestling the largest number of matches.... Keep in mind there are some promotions that still run weekly (or more than once a week) out there, so there are some green guys possibly wrestling for free or for $10 per match that might have wrestled 150 matches this year. People who wrestle for IWA Mid-South and Rockstar Pro, even without getting bookings on other shows, are wrestling over 100 matches per year. IWA-MS alone has run 80 shows so far in 2017. Crap on how much the guys are getting paid all you want, but it's ring time and experience helping guys develop in the same way it helped people like Hero, Punk, Cabana, Whitmer, McGuinness, Sydal, Delirious, Shelley, Jacobs, etc. years ago by giving them regular work. Same with Rockstar running little shows like that weekly.

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

Dec 22, 2017 8:05:57 GMT -5 @kudohdriver said:

It's somewhere between 1,000-2,000. A lot of people forget about the fact that there are companies like CMLL, AAA, the Japanese women's promotions, etc. that provide a living for their talent. The number of average indie guys who have cheap living expenses (splitting rent on an apartment among 3 or 4 workers, and then wrestling on a few shows per week) who get by doing nothing but wrestling may surprise a lot of people. Not just speaking about making a living, but on the subject of who's wrestling the largest number of matches.... Keep in mind there are some promotions that still run weekly (or more than once a week) out there, so there are some green guys possibly wrestling for free or for $10 per match that might have wrestled 150 matches this year. People who wrestle for IWA Mid-South and Rockstar Pro, even without getting bookings on other shows, are wrestling over 100 matches per year.

I reckon you’re right. It makes me wonder too what the average income is for a wrestler who lives full time off of it. Too bad there’s no kind of thorough census data for this kind of thing. Would be interesting to see how it varies by region, age, experience, etc. That kind of thing could help wrestlers too as they’d be able to bargain more effectively and know when they’re getting scammed. It would probably kill out a lot of the low end indies which could have negative consequences even if the guys running some of those places really exploit their labor.

By your post and having some outside knowledge of the subject there’s got to be a good chunk of wrestlers scrapping by, making less than $20,000 per year with little if any other income from other work. That’s pretty rough when you consider this money isn’t being put into a 401k or anything like that for down the road.

[Deleted]

Dec 22, 2017 8:31:11 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

Dec 22, 2017 8:05:57 GMT -5 @kudohdriver said:

It's somewhere between 1,000-2,000. A lot of people forget about the fact that there are companies like CMLL, AAA, the Japanese women's promotions, etc. that provide a living for their talent. The number of average indie guys who have cheap living expenses (splitting rent on an apartment among 3 or 4 workers, and then wrestling on a few shows per week) who get by doing nothing but wrestling may surprise a lot of people. Not just speaking about making a living, but on the subject of who's wrestling the largest number of matches.... Keep in mind there are some promotions that still run weekly (or more than once a week) out there, so there are some green guys possibly wrestling for free or for $10 per match that might have wrestled 150 matches this year. People who wrestle for IWA Mid-South and Rockstar Pro, even without getting bookings on other shows, are wrestling over 100 matches per year.

I reckon you’re right. It makes me wonder too what the average income is for a wrestler who lives full time off of it. Too bad there’s no kind of thorough census data for this kind of thing. Would be interesting to see how it varies by region, age, experience, etc. That kind of thing could help wrestlers too as they’d be able to bargain more effectively and know when they’re getting scammed. It would probably kill out a lot of the low end indies which could have negative consequences even if the guys running some of those places really exploit their labor.

What one person calls "exploiting their labor," another person, such as Hero or Jacobs, call (and still call, to this day, because they value the opportunities they were given in the early 2000's to learn and wrestle multiple times a week, regardless of what the pay was) being given valuable experience. It's why Jacobs is still wrestling there now, to help teach the young guys who are in the position that he was in 15 years ago. Hero was doing the same before being re-signed by WWE. Green wrestlers rarely make a bunch of money, or sometimes anything at all, wrestling during their first couple of years. In time, they move on to bigger and better things (and getting paid well elsewhere). Ask anyone who has ever wrestled for Chikara. They don't pay their students, but those guys are getting experience that is helping them develop and preparing them for the rest of their careers. Those guys aren't "being exploited," they are paying their dues and learning their trade. Once they are ready, they can branch out and wrestle wherever they want to, charging promoters whatever they feel they are worth, if they can command it. When you're early in an independent wrestling career, you need to learn the craft before you start really making any money doing it. Promotions that give guys the opportunity to get ring time but don't pay well aren't the enemy of a new wrestler.... they are what is going to help that wrestler grow into a well rounded performer for years to come.

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

Dec 22, 2017 9:24:01 GMT -5 @kudohdriver said:

Dec 22, 2017 8:31:11 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

I reckon you’re right. It makes me wonder too what the average income is for a wrestler who lives full time off of it. Too bad there’s no kind of thorough census data for this kind of thing. Would be interesting to see how it varies by region, age, experience, etc. That kind of thing could help wrestlers too as they’d be able to bargain more effectively and know when they’re getting scammed. It would probably kill out a lot of the low end indies which could have negative consequences even if the guys running some of those places really exploit their labor.

What one person calls "exploiting their labor," another person, such as Hero or Jacobs, call (and still call, to this day, because they value the opportunities they were given in the early 2000's to learn and wrestle multiple times a week, regardless of what the pay was) being given valuable experience. It's why Jacobs is still wrestling there now, to help teach the young guys who are in the position that he was in 15 years ago. Hero was doing the same before being re-signed by WWE. Green wrestlers rarely make a bunch of money, or sometimes anything at all, wrestling during their first couple of years. In time, they move on to bigger and better things (and getting paid well elsewhere). Ask anyone who has ever wrestled for Chikara. They don't pay their students, but those guys are getting experience that is helping them develop and preparing them for the rest of their careers. Those guys aren't "being exploited," they are paying their dues and learning their trade. Once they are ready, they can branch out and wrestle wherever they want to, charging promoters whatever they feel they are worth, if they can command it. When you're early in an independent wrestling career, you need to learn the craft before you start really making any money doing it. Promotions that give guys the opportunity to get ring time but don't pay well aren't the enemy of a new wrestler.... they are what is going to help that wrestler grow into a well rounded performer for years to come.

I wasn’t calling IWA Mid-South out specifically (though others may). Actually there are worse indies out there that treat their wrestlers worse. Like the ones that operate schools but don’t train their wrestlers properly in addition to not paying them. Then in addition to economic hardship they are an active danger to themselves and anyone they work with.

That’s just one example though. The degree to which promoters exploit their wrestlers is up for debate. However, saying they only offer valuable experience and it never happens is flat wrong (not saying that’s what you said, I’m just clarifying what I meant in my previous post).

[Deleted]

Dec 22, 2017 9:40:10 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

Dec 22, 2017 9:24:01 GMT -5 @kudohdriver said:

What one person calls "exploiting their labor," another person, such as Hero or Jacobs, call (and still call, to this day, because they value the opportunities they were given in the early 2000's to learn and wrestle multiple times a week, regardless of what the pay was) being given valuable experience. It's why Jacobs is still wrestling there now, to help teach the young guys who are in the position that he was in 15 years ago. Hero was doing the same before being re-signed by WWE. Green wrestlers rarely make a bunch of money, or sometimes anything at all, wrestling during their first couple of years. In time, they move on to bigger and better things (and getting paid well elsewhere). Ask anyone who has ever wrestled for Chikara. They don't pay their students, but those guys are getting experience that is helping them develop and preparing them for the rest of their careers. Those guys aren't "being exploited," they are paying their dues and learning their trade. Once they are ready, they can branch out and wrestle wherever they want to, charging promoters whatever they feel they are worth, if they can command it. When you're early in an independent wrestling career, you need to learn the craft before you start really making any money doing it. Promotions that give guys the opportunity to get ring time but don't pay well aren't the enemy of a new wrestler.... they are what is going to help that wrestler grow into a well rounded performer for years to come.

I wasn’t calling IWA Mid-South out specifically (though others may). Actually there are worse indies out there that treat their wrestlers worse. Like the ones that operate schools but don’t train their wrestlers properly in addition to not paying them. Then in addition to economic hardship they are an active danger to themselves and anyone they work with.

That’s just one example though. The degree to which promoters exploit their wrestlers is up for debate. However, saying they only offer valuable experience and it never happens is flat wrong (not saying that’s what you said, I’m just clarifying what I meant in my previous post).

Years ago, certain wrestlers would complain about the pay in certain territories being too low. But some chose to still work there, either to gain experience or because they felt that the pay was enough for them to make ends meet at that stage in their career. None of these guys are forced to stay in one place and work for any specific company, if they feel they are being somehow mistreated. Make no mistake about it, there is value to a lot of these small companies who don't pay well, if it means they are running on a consistent basis, and booking a handful of experienced guys who are helping the young guys along. Places that might take some kid's money for training and then rip the kid off, by giving them no real instruction, and not providing them with any experience (in other words, real scam artists) have no place in wrestling. But for as many faults as someone like Ian Rotten has, being a "questionable person," he has provided such opportunities for young talent for over 20 years now, booking experienced vets to help his young guys learn and having shows on a regular basis for them to get ring time on. More often than your average once-a-month indie. The same can be said for someone like Mike Quackenbush at Chikara giving guys a place to start, and learn, and develop. Same with places like Rockstar now running weekly shows. They're not getting rich, but they're learning. Places like these help facilitate that. Before Ricochet was working for New Japan Pro Wrestling, he was wrestling for peanuts on IWA Mid-South or Chikara shows, learning to work. In time, with all of his experience throughout the world of pro wrestling, he developed a unique style that now makes him one of the top performers in the industry.

[Ultimo Gallos]

Dec 22, 2017 8:05:57 GMT -5 @kudohdriver said:

It's somewhere between 1,000-2,000. A lot of people forget about the fact that there are companies like CMLL, AAA, the Japanese women's promotions, etc. that provide a living for their talent. The number of average indie guys who have cheap living expenses (splitting rent on an apartment among 3 or 4 workers, and then wrestling on a few shows per week) who get by doing nothing but wrestling may surprise a lot of people. Not just speaking about making a living, but on the subject of who's wrestling the largest number of matches.... Keep in mind there are some promotions that still run weekly (or more than once a week) out there, so there are some green guys possibly wrestling for free or for $10 per match that might have wrestled 150 matches this year. People who wrestle for IWA Mid-South and Rockstar Pro, even without getting bookings on other shows, are wrestling over 100 matches per year. IWA-MS alone has run 80 shows so far in 2017. Crap on how much the guys are getting paid all you want, but it's ring time and experience helping guys develop in the same way it helped people like Hero, Punk, Cabana, Whitmer, McGuinness, Sydal, Delirious, Shelley, Jacobs, etc. years ago by giving them regular work. Same with Rockstar running little shows like that weekly.

Yep,there is a fed in MS that has been having weekly shows for right at 15 years now. Started off as NWA Battlezone based in Magee MS. Then for various reasons folded and one of the bookers and co owners started up EPW,that ran the gulf coast for 4 years. EPW burnt too many bridges so was "sold" to someone and became SCW and now runs weekly shows in either Bay St Louis and Kiln.

Talking to one of their main guys he worked on average 3 matches a week this year. "Sometimes doing double shots on Saturday and Sunday Pimp!"

[Ultimo Gallos]

Dec 22, 2017 9:24:01 GMT -5 @kudohdriver said:

Dec 22, 2017 8:31:11 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

I reckon you’re right. It makes me wonder too what the average income is for a wrestler who lives full time off of it. Too bad there’s no kind of thorough census data for this kind of thing. Would be interesting to see how it varies by region, age, experience, etc. That kind of thing could help wrestlers too as they’d be able to bargain more effectively and know when they’re getting scammed. It would probably kill out a lot of the low end indies which could have negative consequences even if the guys running some of those places really exploit their labor.

What one person calls "exploiting their labor," another person, such as Hero or Jacobs, call (and still call, to this day, because they value the opportunities they were given in the early 2000's to learn and wrestle multiple times a week, regardless of what the pay was) being given valuable experience. It's why Jacobs is still wrestling there now, to help teach the young guys who are in the position that he was in 15 years ago. Hero was doing the same before being re-signed by WWE. Green wrestlers rarely make a bunch of money, or sometimes anything at all, wrestling during their first couple of years. In time, they move on to bigger and better things (and getting paid well elsewhere). Ask anyone who has ever wrestled for Chikara. They don't pay their students, but those guys are getting experience that is helping them develop and preparing them for the rest of their careers. Those guys aren't "being exploited," they are paying their dues and learning their trade. Once they are ready, they can branch out and wrestle wherever they want to, charging promoters whatever they feel they are worth, if they can command it. When you're early in an independent wrestling career, you need to learn the craft before you start really making any money doing it. Promotions that give guys the opportunity to get ring time but don't pay well aren't the enemy of a new wrestler.... they are what is going to help that wrestler grow into a well rounded performer for years to come.

From getting to know a few of the promoters in MS and LA it seems that in this area rookies usually get 25 to 50 bucks tops. Plus they have to help set up and tear down the ring. Set up chairs. And even sometimes drive other talent to the show and then bring them home.

One guy who I know reads this forum,but I don't think he posts,was telling me at the last SWA show I was at "So glad Redacted doesn't consider me a rookie anymore. I don't mind getting paid 25 bucks,I don't mind setting up and tearing down the ring,I do mind having to give that fat f*** Mountain Man a ride to the shows. He smells and keeps leaving half full spit cups in my car."

[Viking Hall]

Dec 21, 2017 15:59:54 GMT -5 Numero Dos said:

Dec 21, 2017 8:36:05 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

According to cagematch.net, David Starr has worked 156 matches to date so he’s up there. Not to derail my own thread but it makes me wonder who has worked the most matches in 2017 or 2016 for that matter. Some WWE guys get past the 200 mark some years (Kofi Kingston did in 2012, Cena did in 2011, Orton did in 2011 and 2013, Miz and Ziggler have come close). I’m not sure who if anyone had more than 200 matches this year. Even El Ligero had only (lol) 158 matches this year.

I think I saw El Ligero saying on Twitter a few weeks back that he was on something like 198 matches this year I just think some of the smaller and holiday camp shows he does aren’t on Cagematch. There’s a lot more guys and girls going full time in the UK in the last few years and the WWE UK deals will definitely help with that especially if they ever get the weekly show off the ground and sign more people.

That doesn't surprise me, I've seen Ligero on posters for promotions that don't even have a Facebook page let alone enough of a presence to appear on a results site like CageMatch. It wouldn't surprise me if he's earning less than £100 (maybe even as low as £50) for some appearances judging by the size of the companies, but I suppose it all adds up when you're doing it a few times a week and supplementing it by appearing for bigger promotions who will pay better too. He also has his school with Marty Jones which does classes a few times a week as well which will help, the man's a grafter it has to be said, can't be an easy life.