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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2017 16:47:48 GMT -5
If WWE is soulless then NJPW is even worse. There's absolutely nothing there that compels me to give them anything more than a passing glance, and every time they get that passing glance, it confirms that sticking with WWE has been the correct call on my part by a landslide. I wanna know what "Passing Glances" you've seen to go "Man this sucks let me go back to WWE they've been putting on the much better product!", I'm not calling NJPW perfect by any means but... wow this is a confusing statement. I'll reply as I broadly agree with Cavebob. To me, aside from Okada and Tanahashi (Naito to a point), the matches in Japan feel like a bunch of moves. A bunch of moves very well executed that get great crowd reactions and can be exciting, but there's no narrative that get me invested. A few years ago when AJ came in, Nakamura was there, Balor before that, even Jarrett, I cared about the people involved. Now aside from the names mentioned, noone makes me care about what they do. In WWE, and I appreciate you feel differently about the people involved, I like virtually all the top guys, and while the booking isn't perfect by any stretch, I can always find something to like in the angles and I care about the people involved in them. It feels like they matter. It helps that aside from Okada and Tanahashi also, all my favourite current workers are on featured (AJ, Roman, Hunter, Steph as a character, Owens, Nakamura, Corbin, Usos, Gargano, Almas and Vega and I could go on). Again, as mentioned, it's all personal opinion.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 28, 2017 17:03:55 GMT -5
Eh, I don't really agree that that can be a matter of opinion. The idea that NJPW centers around a collection of moves with no story/psychology is just factually incorrect (outside of standalone exceptions, of course). If anything, NJPW matches tend to come with a lot more narrative built into their psychology than most WWE matches do, precisely because the ring is where they do 90% of their storytelling, world building, and character development. That doesn't mean you have to find each one of the competitors engaging or entertaining, and it doesn't mean you have to find the narratives they are building engaging; THAT'S an area where it's entirely subjective. However, NJPW is actually pretty renown over the past few years for working a lot of storytelling into their major singles matches and most of their title matches, and that really can't be denied. Obviously you won't get that as often with, say, a midcard title match for the NEVER 6 man belts, which are meant to be more chaotic and more about getting the crowd excited via the action, but Tanahashi vs. Ibushi for the IC belt in November was very much built off the real life angle of Tana wanting Ibushi to sign full time to "fulfill his potential", Omega vs. Goto at the G1 26 finals told a slowly unfolding story of Kenny usurping and surpassing the Bullet Club leaders/top gaijin who came before him (while building off the pathos of Goto's world title futility), and almost all of Naito's main event work since his heel turn has been one long story of the detours he's taken the top undergirded by self-doubt that continues to very quietly eat at him occasionally. Again, one may feel these stories aren't their style or fit for their own tastes, but the matches revolve around them. Nakamura never had a collection of great matches before WWE. His good matches are occasional and only under special circumstances. As much as I love SHIN, you're on the money. Dude could put on awesome matches, but they've been here or there. I'm not sure if his body is worn and he puts in minimal effort until it matters or if he just puts minimal effort unless it is a match that he feels is worth his time. Nak's Wrestle Kingdom matches were all awesome, his matches with Tanahashi were damn good, and his debut NXT match was awesome but main roster-wise he's been lackluster. Even the orton/Cena matches were just okay. I have to think that's precisely because of the format he used to wrestle in: you just don't go "all out" until the stage is big enough to warrant it, otherwise the big stage becomes kind of meaningless. Everybody would agree, for example, that Tomohiro Ishii had a great year in singles competition for NJPW in 2017, but when you look back on it you can actually count the number of truly great matches he had probably on one hands, maybe just beginning two. Nakamura wasn't terribly different, his big G1 matches, his Tokyo Dome matches, and his big card title defenses always brought the goods, but they worked in part because at the smaller cards he was saving himself by working undercard tag matches or by having slightly less strenuous title defenses.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Dec 28, 2017 17:19:53 GMT -5
Nakamura never had a collection of great matches before WWE. His good matches are occasional and only under special circumstances. As much as I love SHIN, you're on the money. Dude could put on awesome matches, but they've been here or there. I'm not sure if his body is worn and he puts in minimal effort until it matters or if he just puts minimal effort unless it is a match that he feels is worth his time. Nak's Wrestle Kingdom matches were all awesome, his matches with Tanahashi were damn good, and his debut NXT match was awesome but main roster-wise he's been lackluster. Even the orton/Cena matches were just okay. My only issue with Nak/Orton was that it was too short. Orton seemed like he was into it, so I think they could tear it up with 20+ minutes.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Dec 28, 2017 20:47:00 GMT -5
Eh, I don't really agree that that can be a matter of opinion. The idea that NJPW centers around a collection of moves with no story/psychology is just factually incorrect (outside of standalone exceptions, of course). If anything, NJPW matches tend to come with a lot more narrative built into their psychology than most WWE matches do, precisely because the ring is where they do 90% of their storytelling, world building, and character development. That doesn't mean you have to find each one of the competitors engaging or entertaining, and it doesn't mean you have to find the narratives they are building engaging; THAT'S an area where it's entirely subjective. However, NJPW is actually pretty renown over the past few years for working a lot of storytelling into their major singles matches and most of their title matches, and that really can't be denied. Obviously you won't get that as often with, say, a midcard title match for the NEVER 6 man belts, which are meant to be more chaotic and more about getting the crowd excited via the action, but Tanahashi vs. Ibushi for the IC belt in November was very much built off the real life angle of Tana wanting Ibushi to sign full time to "fulfill his potential", Omega vs. Goto at the G1 26 finals told a slowly unfolding story of Kenny usurping and surpassing the Bullet Club leaders/top gaijin who came before him (while building off the pathos of Goto's world title futility), and almost all of Naito's main event work since his heel turn has been one long story of the detours he's taken the top undergirded by self-doubt that continues to very quietly eat at him occasionally. Again, one may feel these stories aren't their style or fit for their own tastes, but the matches revolve around them. As much as I love SHIN, you're on the money. Dude could put on awesome matches, but they've been here or there. I'm not sure if his body is worn and he puts in minimal effort until it matters or if he just puts minimal effort unless it is a match that he feels is worth his time. Nak's Wrestle Kingdom matches were all awesome, his matches with Tanahashi were damn good, and his debut NXT match was awesome but main roster-wise he's been lackluster. Even the orton/Cena matches were just okay. I have to think that's precisely because of the format he used to wrestle in: you just don't go "all out" until the stage is big enough to warrant it, otherwise the big stage becomes kind of meaningless. Everybody would agree, for example, that Tomohiro Ishii had a great year in singles competition for NJPW in 2017, but when you look back on it you can actually count the number of truly great matches he had probably on one hands, maybe just beginning two. Nakamura wasn't terribly different, his big G1 matches, his Tokyo Dome matches, and his big card title defenses always brought the goods, but they worked in part because at the smaller cards he was saving himself by working undercard tag matches or by having slightly less strenuous title defenses. Yeah, this felt like one of the more blatantly character driven years for NJPW. I don’t buy the no narrative argument at all. NJPW focuses on conducting a lot of that in sports style interviews and press conferences, but even in the ring it was pretty transparent.
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Post by eJm on Dec 28, 2017 20:52:12 GMT -5
Eh, I don't really agree that that can be a matter of opinion. The idea that NJPW centers around a collection of moves with no story/psychology is just factually incorrect (outside of standalone exceptions, of course). If anything, NJPW matches tend to come with a lot more narrative built into their psychology than most WWE matches do, precisely because the ring is where they do 90% of their storytelling, world building, and character development. That doesn't mean you have to find each one of the competitors engaging or entertaining, and it doesn't mean you have to find the narratives they are building engaging; THAT'S an area where it's entirely subjective. However, NJPW is actually pretty renown over the past few years for working a lot of storytelling into their major singles matches and most of their title matches, and that really can't be denied. Obviously you won't get that as often with, say, a midcard title match for the NEVER 6 man belts, which are meant to be more chaotic and more about getting the crowd excited via the action, but Tanahashi vs. Ibushi for the IC belt in November was very much built off the real life angle of Tana wanting Ibushi to sign full time to "fulfill his potential", Omega vs. Goto at the G1 26 finals told a slowly unfolding story of Kenny usurping and surpassing the Bullet Club leaders/top gaijin who came before him (while building off the pathos of Goto's world title futility), and almost all of Naito's main event work since his heel turn has been one long story of the detours he's taken the top undergirded by self-doubt that continues to very quietly eat at him occasionally. Again, one may feel these stories aren't their style or fit for their own tastes, but the matches revolve around them. I have to think that's precisely because of the format he used to wrestle in: you just don't go "all out" until the stage is big enough to warrant it, otherwise the big stage becomes kind of meaningless. Everybody would agree, for example, that Tomohiro Ishii had a great year in singles competition for NJPW in 2017, but when you look back on it you can actually count the number of truly great matches he had probably on one hands, maybe just beginning two. Nakamura wasn't terribly different, his big G1 matches, his Tokyo Dome matches, and his big card title defenses always brought the goods, but they worked in part because at the smaller cards he was saving himself by working undercard tag matches or by having slightly less strenuous title defenses. Yeah, this felt like one of the more blatantly character driven years for NJPW. I don’t buy the no narrative argument at all. NJPW focuses on conducting a lot of that in sports style interviews and press conferences, but even in the ring it was pretty transparent. Like, this should be said again, the biggest feud for New Japan is the greatest “making lemons from lemonade” situation in wrestling history. It’s something that can’t be compared with any other main event fall or even rise ever.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 1:26:29 GMT -5
Eh, I don't really agree that that can be a matter of opinion. The idea that NJPW centers around a collection of moves with no story/psychology is just factually incorrect (outside of standalone exceptions, of course). If anything, NJPW matches tend to come with a lot more narrative built into their psychology than most WWE matches do, precisely because the ring is where they do 90% of their storytelling, world building, and character development. That doesn't mean you have to find each one of the competitors engaging or entertaining, and it doesn't mean you have to find the narratives they are building engaging; THAT'S an area where it's entirely subjective. However, NJPW is actually pretty renown over the past few years for working a lot of storytelling into their major singles matches and most of their title matches, and that really can't be denied. Obviously you won't get that as often with, say, a midcard title match for the NEVER 6 man belts, which are meant to be more chaotic and more about getting the crowd excited via the action, but Tanahashi vs. Ibushi for the IC belt in November was very much built off the real life angle of Tana wanting Ibushi to sign full time to "fulfill his potential", Omega vs. Goto at the G1 26 finals told a slowly unfolding story of Kenny usurping and surpassing the Bullet Club leaders/top gaijin who came before him (while building off the pathos of Goto's world title futility), and almost all of Naito's main event work since his heel turn has been one long story of the detours he's taken the top undergirded by self-doubt that continues to very quietly eat at him occasionally. Again, one may feel these stories aren't their style or fit for their own tastes, but the matches revolve around them. As much as I love SHIN, you're on the money. Dude could put on awesome matches, but they've been here or there. I'm not sure if his body is worn and he puts in minimal effort until it matters or if he just puts minimal effort unless it is a match that he feels is worth his time. Nak's Wrestle Kingdom matches were all awesome, his matches with Tanahashi were damn good, and his debut NXT match was awesome but main roster-wise he's been lackluster. Even the orton/Cena matches were just okay. I have to think that's precisely because of the format he used to wrestle in: you just don't go "all out" until the stage is big enough to warrant it, otherwise the big stage becomes kind of meaningless. Everybody would agree, for example, that Tomohiro Ishii had a great year in singles competition for NJPW in 2017, but when you look back on it you can actually count the number of truly great matches he had probably on one hands, maybe just beginning two. Nakamura wasn't terribly different, his big G1 matches, his Tokyo Dome matches, and his big card title defenses always brought the goods, but they worked in part because at the smaller cards he was saving himself by working undercard tag matches or by having slightly less strenuous title defenses. You're completely right and I wasn't clear in my reply. I should have stated that I don't find the stories and characters compelling leading to the matches feeling like 'just a bunch of moves'. That's where the whole I don't believe them thing comes in. None of the wrestlers convince me except the names I mentioned so the narratives feel tacked on and superfluous.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2017 6:57:20 GMT -5
Yeah, this felt like one of the more blatantly character driven years for NJPW. I don’t buy the no narrative argument at all. NJPW focuses on conducting a lot of that in sports style interviews and press conferences, but even in the ring it was pretty transparent. Like, this should be said again, the biggest feud for New Japan is the greatest “making lemons from lemonade” situation in wrestling history. It’s something that can’t be compared with any other main event fall or even rise ever. It's honestly a little bit scary. New Japan of course plans their programs very far in advance, and they had the rug pulled out from under them in losing half of their top guys. If the evolution of Kenny Omega and the absolute breakout of Tetsuya Naito/LIJ was emergency mode booking, it really makes you wonder what the next couple years have in store. Meanwhile, Jinder Mahal was the WWE Champion for 6 months while sharing a locker room with both of the poached talents. I'm glad Kenny is happy where he is.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 29, 2017 8:41:35 GMT -5
Like, this should be said again, the biggest feud for New Japan is the greatest “making lemons from lemonade” situation in wrestling history. It’s something that can’t be compared with any other main event fall or even rise ever. It's honestly a little bit scary. New Japan of course plans their programs very far in advance, and they had the rug pulled out from under them in losing half of their top guys. If the evolution of Kenny Omega and the absolute breakout of Tetsuya Naito/LIJ was emergency mode booking, it really makes you wonder what the next couple years have in store. Meanwhile, Jinder Mahal was the WWE Champion for 6 months while sharing a locker room with both of the poached talents. I'm glad Kenny is happy where he is. Yeah, it isn't to say that NJPW doesn't screw up here and there; for example, the emphasis Gedo's booking puts on the heavyweight singles scene, while a huge reason why NJPW is growing as much as it is these days, nevertheless often leaves the Jr division and, even more so, the tag divisions feeling neglected to some degree, not enough to completely ruin them but it can be noticeable. And some pushes they attempt sometimes go better than others, it's not like there's a perfect equation out there that guarantees success on that front. However, the company has really done a spectacular job in recent times always booking with a "Plan B" or even "C" in mind; Omega and Naito are great examples of that, as they stepped in to fill the voids left by Styles and Nakamura (and make no mistake, there was a TON of risk involved in pushing Omega as heavily as they did throughout 2016, they just had that much faith in him as a performer), and they knew that Okada would remain their ace and the constant legitimate presence at the top of the card. Even more than that, though, I think it's the current Young Lion system that guarantees they'll never be 100% without options, because the success rate of that program has always been strong and lately it's only gotten stronger, to the point where it's almost expected now that Young Lions returning from excursion will immediately have significant spots on the roster right away, something Tanahashi lamp-shaded recently during promos to build to his IC title match at Wrestle Kingdom against the returning Jay White. But just look at the past year-plus: Hiromu Takahashi returned from CMLL and ROH and immediately challenged for, then won, the IWGP Jr. title while becoming an integral member of LIJ; Jay White is back from ROH and is already poised to challenge for the IC belt and potentially start his own faction (that part remains to be seen); Sho and Yo came back and are being given a ticket to the top of a struggling Jr. Tag division to help revitalize it; EVIL was Watanabe in ROH, but he returned and has become an upper midcard presence who achieved "top title challenger" this year; hell, go back a bit and even Okada was a guy who went away for a little while, came back, and skyrocketed to the top a little over a month after his return. Guys like Juice or Finlay who don't go on excursion stick around and become underdogs the crowd wants to see push to the next level, giving the midcard a series of acts the crowd responds to. The promotion obviously has a ton of faith in its dojo and its training program, and it means that even if WWE were to come in and swoop up a few top names from NJPW ever 2-3 years, they'd be prepared to get a program together to begin replacing the people they've lost. For anyone curious, Showbuckle and Real Neat Puro are two excellent YouTube channels that provide a lot more depth and information on topics like these, well worth a look:
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