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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 5, 2018 16:09:52 GMT -5
If New Japan says the three french fries shoved into a Union Jack jacket that is Zack Saber Jr. qualifies as a heavyweight then Kushida can too. I jumped up when he choked out Rowe |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 5, 2018 16:27:58 GMT -5
I hear you on that. Don't get me wrong he wouldn't look right against hosses like Kitamura but I think more so now it's about style than anything. I mean looking at ZSJ, he doesn't look right against people like Tanahashi or Tama Tonga but his style sells that he's a heavyweight because he makes shit hurt and I think Kushida can do the same because of his background I know what you're getting at. And Japanese culture has become slightly more Americanised (at least in New Japan) over recent years - mainly thanks to Gedo's obsession with American wrestling. Hell, Wrestle Kingdom just had a No Disqualification match on the card. That's just mindblowing that the fans accepted that. But you see something like the Ladder match and that was a step too far for them. I just think it's the same in this scenario. There's quite a few guys that are heavy's now that just wouldn't have flown in the 90s (Ibushi, ZSJ, Beretta, hell even Ishii because of his height) but this is the same time period where NJ insiders were terrified that Hash would flop because they thought he was too short (at 5'11"). But there are still times where it goes too far (like NOAH trying to push KENTAfuji as heavy's and - in my opinion - KUSHIDA if you were to try and go down that route). Maybe in another 20 years Japan will have completely changed again and it will be an openweight system like most of the rest of the world but for right now I think a KUSHIDA heavyweight push would fall absolutely flat and be a huge waste of him. I get what you're saying in regards to you don't want him to go up to HW and potentially bomb it that spot and it hurt him after all the time he put in as a Junior. I think the biggest difference between KENTA with NOAH and KUSHIDA with NJPW is the fact Juniors move up. I firmly believe he can succeed big because this isn't the 90s anymore and fans are accepting of those you build up and make them look good. All the guys you mentioned who would probably be stuck in the 90s are indeed over now and that's what matters and bodes well for a guy like KUSHIDA who's talent level is close to someone like Ibushi Omega is the standard right now for guys wanting to make that jump. He successfully made the jump despite his goofy demeanor. In regards to making the jump it's just as much about style as it is ability. I think he can adapt well and make it work |
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AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Jan 5, 2018 17:18:53 GMT -5
I know what you're getting at. And Japanese culture has become slightly more Americanised (at least in New Japan) over recent years - mainly thanks to Gedo's obsession with American wrestling. Hell, Wrestle Kingdom just had a No Disqualification match on the card. That's just mindblowing that the fans accepted that. But you see something like the Ladder match and that was a step too far for them. I just think it's the same in this scenario. There's quite a few guys that are heavy's now that just wouldn't have flown in the 90s (Ibushi, ZSJ, Beretta, hell even Ishii because of his height) but this is the same time period where NJ insiders were terrified that Hash would flop because they thought he was too short (at 5'11"). But there are still times where it goes too far (like NOAH trying to push KENTAfuji as heavy's and - in my opinion - KUSHIDA if you were to try and go down that route). Maybe in another 20 years Japan will have completely changed again and it will be an openweight system like most of the rest of the world but for right now I think a KUSHIDA heavyweight push would fall absolutely flat and be a huge waste of him. I get what you're saying in regards to you don't want him to go up to HW and potentially bomb it that spot and it hurt him after all the time he put in as a Junior. I think the biggest difference between KENTA with NOAH and KUSHIDA with NJPW is the fact Juniors move up. I firmly believe he can succeed big because this isn't the 90s anymore and fans are accepting of those you build up and make them look good. All the guys you mentioned who would probably be stuck in the 90s are indeed over now and that's what matters and bodes well for a guy like KUSHIDA who's talent level is close to someone like Ibushi Omega is the standard right now for guys wanting to make that jump. He successfully made the jump despite his goofy demeanor. In regards to making the jump it's just as much about style as it is ability. I think he can adapt well and make it work Again like I take your point, and I don't 100% disagree with your premise - I just don't think it will work here. Like, for me, when I heard Beretta was going to heavyweight the traditionalist in me was having a fit, but rationally I was thinking "Well, providing he delivers in big matches it will get over, he's tall enough and could bulk up enough for modern New Japan standards". I don't have that comfort here, like KUSHIDA, to me, would not be credible as a heavyweight in the Japanese fans eyes. Much like Marufuji (to a certain extent 'til he changed his style and bulked up a bit more) and KENTA (to a total degree). And to be fair it's nothing to do with NOAH not promoting Jr's like New Japan do because they do (see: Takashi Sugiura, Katsuhiko Nakajima etc.). They've even tried it recently with Kenoh and Atsushi Kotoge - although I hate those graduations too and have fallen out of love with NOAH again anyway so haven't stuck around to see whether it has bombed or not. To me, there's nothing wrong with being an amazing Junior Heavyweight. Look at Liger, he's an absolute legend but the only time New Japan even considered having him wrestle the heavyweight's in anything other than one off's was when Choshu upped and decided he hated the Jr. division. And Liger was treated as a bit of a joke. It took a swift return to the Jr division and the awesomeness that was CTU to recover him. To bring my ramble to an end I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I just think KUSHIDA is too small for Japanese crowds to take him seriously as a heavyweight. I think he's held the Jr. division together admirably with no-one else to help until Hiromu, Ospreay and Scurll arrived to really get over and give the division some life. And he's deservedly the Jr. ace and - for me - that's the exact position he should stay in for the foreseeable future. |
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 5, 2018 17:22:55 GMT -5
I get what you're saying in regards to you don't want him to go up to HW and potentially bomb it that spot and it hurt him after all the time he put in as a Junior. I think the biggest difference between KENTA with NOAH and KUSHIDA with NJPW is the fact Juniors move up. I firmly believe he can succeed big because this isn't the 90s anymore and fans are accepting of those you build up and make them look good. All the guys you mentioned who would probably be stuck in the 90s are indeed over now and that's what matters and bodes well for a guy like KUSHIDA who's talent level is close to someone like Ibushi Omega is the standard right now for guys wanting to make that jump. He successfully made the jump despite his goofy demeanor. In regards to making the jump it's just as much about style as it is ability. I think he can adapt well and make it work Again like I take your point, and I don't 100% disagree with your premise - I just don't think it will work here. Like, for me, when I heard Beretta was going to heavyweight the traditionalist in me was having a fit, but rationally I was thinking "Well, providing he delivers in big matches it will get over, he's tall enough and could bulk up enough for modern New Japan standards". I don't have that comfort here, like KUSHIDA, to me, would not be credible as a heavyweight in the Japanese fans eyes. Much like Marufuji (to a certain extent 'til he changed his style and bulked up a bit more) and KENTA (to a total degree). And to be fair it's nothing to do with NOAH not promoting Jr's like New Japan do because they do (see: Takashi Sugiura, Katsuhiko Nakajima etc.). They've even tried it recently with Kenoh and Atsushi Kotoge - although I hate those graduations too and have fallen out of love with NOAH again anyway so haven't stuck around to see whether it has bombed or not. To me, there's nothing wrong with being an amazing Junior Heavyweight. Look at Liger, he's an absolute legend but the only time New Japan even considered having him wrestle the heavyweight's in anything other than one off's was when Choshu upped and decided he hated the Jr. division. And Liger was treated as a bit of a joke. It took a swift return to the Jr division and the awesomeness that was CTU to recover him. To bring my ramble to an end I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. I just think KUSHIDA is too small for Japanese crowds to take him seriously as a heavyweight. I think he's held the Jr. division together admirably with no-one else to help until Hiromu, Ospreay and Scurll arrived to really get over and give the division some life. And he's deservedly the Jr. ace and - for me - that's the exact position he should stay in for the foreseeable future. Right. I get what you are saying and don't fully disagree with what you are saying either. We are agreeing and disagreeing at the same time but it's been a good discussion looking at both sides of the coin |
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chrom
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Post by chrom on Jan 5, 2018 19:18:15 GMT -5
He could easily do the NEVER Title
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