Puder v. Angle: what if the ref hadn’t thought so quick?

[Natural Born Farmer]

It worked out about as well as it could have, but what if the ref had panicked and either done nothing or just tried get Puder to release the hold? Angle gets his arm broken? Does Puder get fired immediately or get over huge right away?

[SirLucas]

I don't understand. This was back when SD was taped show. If WWE really didn't want this to air, they could have simply cut it out in post production.

[Natural Born Farmer]

Feb 23, 2018 17:30:21 GMT -5 SirLucas said:

I don't understand. This was back when SD was taped show. If WWE really didn't want this to air, they could have simply cut it out in post production.

Kurt’s arm wouldn’t be any less damaged. And there’s no way they could have kept word from getting out.

[Kyn]

Fired, regardless of if it aired.

[Nickybojelais]

I think if Puder broke Angle's arm they would've hastily booked a 3 on 1 handicap match with Puder facing Benoit, JBL and Hardcore Holly.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Puder goes down in history as being a f***ing psychopath who shoot broke the arm of Kurt Angle, who as someone people liked would have positioned him as hardly a folk hero. He'd be fired overnight, and probably get offers to show up in TNA where he'd show up, brag about breaking Kurt's arm, and then get a gimmick where he keeps on the kimura too long and puts people on the shelf.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

I'm legit bewildered what quick thinking the ref even had to do. Puder was lying on his back with Angle on top of him n a goddamn wrestling match.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Kurt would've gotten his arm broken and his reputation destroyed. The segment probably would've never been aired.

[The Barber]

Puder would have gotten a push.

[mizerable]

It was just stupid on WWE's part.

I really don't blame Puder especially after they act as though he isn't as tough as he says he is, then have him "prove" himself to Angle after Angle had really roughed up a couple guys by shooting on them.

I mean, what did you think was going to happen?

Feb 23, 2018 20:17:18 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

I'm legit bewildered what quick thinking the ref even had to do. Puder was lying on his back with Angle on top of him n a goddamn wrestling match.

That was some insane quick thinking. I honestly wonder if you had a guy like Hebner or Armstrong if the same thing would've happened. Thank God they had Korderas, probably one of the best impromptu refs ever.

[Reflecto]

Feb 23, 2018 20:00:36 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Puder goes down in history as being a f***ing psychopath who shoot broke the arm of Kurt Angle, who as someone people liked would have positioned him as hardly a folk hero. He'd be fired overnight, and probably get offers to show up in TNA where he'd show up, brag about breaking Kurt's arm, and then get a gimmick where he keeps on the kimura too long and puts people on the shelf.

But at the same time, you also have to remember the other parts to it:

1) Puder probably won Tough Enough on the back of "he nearly broke Kurt Angle's arm in a shoot fight", so even if he goes down as a psychopath, he'd still be positioned as a folk hero even if people liked Angle. If Puder succeeded, he is almost certainly blackballed from WWE, but likely has a big career on the indies for it. (It may seem barbaric, but remember- at that similar time period in the 2000s, Mike Barton was a big deal in Japan at that time on the back of "he shoot knocked out Steve Williams in the Brawl 4 All. Combine Barton's Japan success and the fact Inoki was in his MMA fanboyism at the time, and there is no way New Japan doesn't back up the Brinks truck for Puder.)

2) Focusing on Puder has to also be said for the opposite side- what happens to Angle's reputation? Angle had been built on the Olympic Gold Medalist and one of the best fighters in the world aura- and as seen from New Japan, getting your ass kicked in the Octagon could destroy a star in an instant. If Puder succeeded in breaking Angle's arm or even made Angle tap, then Kurt Angle's career as a main event player is instantly DEAD. Just give Angle a dancing gimmick and put him in the lower card- Angle would be instantly done as a major player in WWE. (The "could Angle just tap?" was also an important distinction, because a big problem in the instance was "Even if it would be smarter to tap out, Kurt Angle could not tap out to Puder, because "KURT ANGLE" wouldn't tap out to an untrained rookie and so if Angle did the smart thing and tapped, he instantly broke character and made himself look like a doofus in storyline).

[Final Countdown Jones]

Feb 23, 2018 23:19:14 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

Feb 23, 2018 20:00:36 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Puder goes down in history as being a f***ing psychopath who shoot broke the arm of Kurt Angle, who as someone people liked would have positioned him as hardly a folk hero. He'd be fired overnight, and probably get offers to show up in TNA where he'd show up, brag about breaking Kurt's arm, and then get a gimmick where he keeps on the kimura too long and puts people on the shelf.

But at the same time, you also have to remember the other parts to it:

1) Puder probably won Tough Enough on the back of "he nearly broke Kurt Angle's arm in a shoot fight", so even if he goes down as a psychopath, he'd still be positioned as a folk hero even if people liked Angle. If Puder succeeded, he is almost certainly blackballed from WWE, but likely has a big career on the indies for it. (It may seem barbaric, but remember- at that similar time period in the 2000s, Mike Barton was a big deal in Japan at that time on the back of "he shoot knocked out Steve Williams in the Brawl 4 All. Combine Barton's Japan success and the fact Inoki was in his MMA fanboyism at the time, and there is no way New Japan doesn't back up the Brinks truck for Puder.)

2) Focusing on Puder has to also be said for the opposite side- what happens to Angle's reputation? Angle had been built on the Olympic Gold Medalist and one of the best fighters in the world aura- and as seen from New Japan, getting your ass kicked in the Octagon could destroy a star in an instant. If Puder succeeded in breaking Angle's arm or even made Angle tap, then Kurt Angle's career as a main event player is instantly DEAD. Just give Angle a dancing gimmick and put him in the lower card- Angle would be instantly done as a major player in WWE. (The "could Angle just tap?" was also an important distinction, because a big problem in the instance was "Even if it would be smarter to tap out, Kurt Angle could not tap out to Puder, because "KURT ANGLE" wouldn't tap out to an untrained rookie and so if Angle did the smart thing and tapped, he instantly broke character and made himself look like a doofus in storyline).

Kurt's injury never makes broadcast, they kayfabe him something, only people who know are the ones inside the arena at the time and the online fans who will not think very much at all of the guy for keeping the hold on that long and injuring Kurt. WWE will control the spin and protect its guy in ways that Inoki, in his insane fixation on MMA, never cared to. Anyone who got some success or cred for the Brawl 4 All or Inoki cramming them into MMA did it in real shoot fights, it's a different case here. The story ends up coming out way more sympathetic to Kurt instead of being a hazing gone wrong, the spin comes out in a much more destructive way, Puder gets a reputation for being someone who will shoot way too hard and won't stop until someone is injured, and in the end they end up getting booked only with bottom feeding scum-suckers like TNA who'd love someone in that position.

[Reflecto]

Feb 23, 2018 23:49:32 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Feb 23, 2018 23:19:14 GMT -5 Reflecto said:

But at the same time, you also have to remember the other parts to it:

1) Puder probably won Tough Enough on the back of "he nearly broke Kurt Angle's arm in a shoot fight", so even if he goes down as a psychopath, he'd still be positioned as a folk hero even if people liked Angle. If Puder succeeded, he is almost certainly blackballed from WWE, but likely has a big career on the indies for it. (It may seem barbaric, but remember- at that similar time period in the 2000s, Mike Barton was a big deal in Japan at that time on the back of "he shoot knocked out Steve Williams in the Brawl 4 All. Combine Barton's Japan success and the fact Inoki was in his MMA fanboyism at the time, and there is no way New Japan doesn't back up the Brinks truck for Puder.)

2) Focusing on Puder has to also be said for the opposite side- what happens to Angle's reputation? Angle had been built on the Olympic Gold Medalist and one of the best fighters in the world aura- and as seen from New Japan, getting your ass kicked in the Octagon could destroy a star in an instant. If Puder succeeded in breaking Angle's arm or even made Angle tap, then Kurt Angle's career as a main event player is instantly DEAD. Just give Angle a dancing gimmick and put him in the lower card- Angle would be instantly done as a major player in WWE. (The "could Angle just tap?" was also an important distinction, because a big problem in the instance was "Even if it would be smarter to tap out, Kurt Angle could not tap out to Puder, because "KURT ANGLE" wouldn't tap out to an untrained rookie and so if Angle did the smart thing and tapped, he instantly broke character and made himself look like a doofus in storyline).

Kurt's injury never makes broadcast, they kayfabe him something, only people who know are the ones inside the arena at the time and the online fans who will not think very much at all of the guy for keeping the hold on that long and injuring Kurt. WWE will control the spin and protect its guy in ways that Inoki, in his insane fixation on MMA, never cared to. Anyone who got some success or cred for the Brawl 4 All or Inoki cramming them into MMA did it in real shoot fights, it's a different case here. The story ends up coming out way more sympathetic to Kurt instead of being a hazing gone wrong, the spin comes out in a much more destructive way, Puder gets a reputation for being someone who will shoot way too hard and won't stop until someone is injured, and in the end they end up getting booked only with bottom feeding scum-suckers like TNA who'd love someone in that position.

That's the problem though- even if WWE tried to do that, the fact it wouldn't make broadcast would actually do more for Puder's aura than if WWE showed the footage of the injury.

If the "the only ones who'd know are the ones inside the arena and the online fans who won't think much at all of the guy for keeping the hold on that long and injuring Kurt" happened, that would actually do more to MAKE Puder have an aura- simply because if that few people saw it, the game of Telephone would turn "Puder suckered Angle in and locked a kimura on him [and presumably broke his arm]" to 'Angle fought Puder with all his wrestling ability in a 60 minute match, then Puder locked a kimura in and had Angle crying and begging him for mercy, but Puder ripped his arm off and held it up as a trophy!"- and the fact only the fans in the arena (who'd tell friends, and they'd tell friends, and so on) and the online fans (who'd repeat the story over and over) would know otherwise.

WWE would make sure the story was sympathetic to Kurt instead of a hazing gone wrong- we saw that with the Bob Holly/Brock Lesnar match. But even then, Puder would still get a reputation as one of the baddest dudes in the sport. If he only gets booked with bottom feeding scumsuckers like TNA, they'd make Puder a huge star for them...but even if Puder gets blackballed, that might even be WORSE for WWE than if Puder latched on with TNA (remember: Puder was an MMA fighter before Tough Enough, and even if Puder's blackballed in wrestling, Dana White would absolutely get Puder on The Ultimate Fighter and lord over pro wrestling with 'this guy legit injured Kurt Angle in a shoot fight!" to make Puder a big name for UFC- and if Puder got beat, they'd bill the winner as "Puder was tougher than the toughest real fighter in WWE, and this guy went through him like nothing!".)

[evilhomer]

They would have had Angle come back and not only defeat him, but humiliate him, treat him like a jobber to the jobbers, make him look like what he was, a very limited performer with some real ability who got lucky catching someone off guard.

The whole idea of Puder taking off with the angle has one glaring flaw, the lack of charisma and ability to put on a good match of Puder himself. Any angle only goes as far as the performer will carry it. Booking certainly helps and maybe a promotion would try attaching a rocket to his ass but it would quickly fizzle out.

[asellus]

's not like Kurt was much better during this confrontation, he had just broken Chris Nawrocki's ribs earlier and used an illegal hold.

[carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army)]

Feb 23, 2018 21:36:39 GMT -5 mizerable said:

Feb 23, 2018 20:17:18 GMT -5 carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) said:

I'm legit bewildered what quick thinking the ref even had to do. Puder was lying on his back with Angle on top of him n a goddamn wrestling match.

That was some insane quick thinking. I honestly wonder if you had a guy like Hebner or Armstrong if the same thing would've happened. Thank God they had Korderas, probably one of the best impromptu refs ever.

But that's the rules. You pin a guy who's lying on the mat with someone on top of him.

After the match, Angle even got in his face yelling "You immediately fall onto your back during a wrestling match? What's wrong with you?"

[TGM]

Puder just makes me think what shitheads Guerrero, Benoit and Holly were during that Rumble.

[Cvslfc123]

The Miz wins Tough Enough instead and suffers from the curse that recent winners have had and gets released a year later.

[vanhyden]

New Gimmick: Sexy Star Puder

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

I still don't understand any of the logic there. Send a guy out there to shoot on Kurt Angle and then get mad at him for shooting on Kurt Angle.