Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 0:55:01 GMT -5
Well someone is a grumpy goose
|
|
EyeofTyr
Hank Scorpio
Strange and Mystical
Posts: 5,744
|
Post by EyeofTyr on Apr 23, 2018 1:17:14 GMT -5
Am...I the only one that finds irony in him saying this when he's the director of ALIENS, an installment that turned the Alien franchise from a thriller horror idea into very much what he's accusing the Avengers saga of being? Like, I like Aliens but come on, man. Some self awareness would be nice. I think you might need to watch Aliens again? Aliens ends with one mother defending her surrogate daughter from another mother whose children have all been killed. Whereas all the hyper-gonad males in the movie, to use Cameron's phrase, basically fail and die. Gorman and Apone are shown to be bad leaders, Drake's overeagerness leads to his disfiguration and death, Hudson is all bluster and whine until his last stand, Burke is a corporate weasel whose cowardice is his undoing, and even Hicks, the most wily of the men, can't outsmart the xenomorphs and remains out of commission at the end of the movie. Ripley only survives because she relies on another female character, Newt, who can't resort to violence to solve problems, unlike the women members of the military unit--Dietrich and Ferro (who are basically non-entities in terms of character), but especially Vasquez. If anything, Aliens is the point furthest from the very things Cameron complains, correctly or incorrectly, about the Marvel movies. I can kind of see Cameron's point about the Marvel movies. Looking at some of the recent Marvel movies, Black Panther: Wakanda guy whose dad died fights African-American cousin whose dad died. Thor Ragnarok: Asgardian guy fights estranged sister after their dad dies. Spider-Man Homecoming: Teenage guy fights love interest's criminal dad. Guardians of the Galaxy 2: Earth guy fights deadbeat dad because deadbeat dad killed earth guy's mom. Civil War: Rich guy ends up fighting World War II guys because one World War II guy killed rich guy's parents. Age of Ultron: Unwanted, unloved AI child fights parents, who find a better, cuddlier version of AI child, who kills the first AI child. Even the Marvel TV shows fall into patterns of dad/brother issues (Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist). The only real healthy family unit that also isn't paternalistic can be found on Agents of SHIELD. I get what you're trying to say, I really do. I used to be a big defender of Aliens for those very reasons. For what I assumed was the message, like a lot of people have. It's a nice idea and it really adds to a film that is otherwise not as strong in its themes and messages as its predecessor. But Cameron's gone on record for his intentions with the movie and the man somehow stumbled into that potential interpretation of the film by chance, I'm unsure he's even aware of it now though he probably is aware of this view on the film given the age of information we're in. You know why it goes that way? Because according to Cameron Ripley was "hot" and so of course she survived because that's what men wanted to see, and Newt "had" to survive because she's a kid and it helps broaden the appeal of the film. This was the extent to the thought he put into these characters. His "vision" in his own words for Aliens was to make Alien "bigger, badder and more appealing to a general audience", and openly criticized the thriller elements of Alien & sought to make it more fast paced, filled with action and "not as boring" as the first installment. It's with this information that the shine of Aliens starts to fall off. You start seeing what was intended and what was unintentionally created. When you realize Ripley's role in Cameron's mind was the equivalent to "hot chicks holding big guns" with her. When you realize Newt was little more than marketing in his eyes. So the fact Cameron needed boobs on some blue space cat ladies does not surprise me. The fact that his Spider-man was one of the most sophomoric in terms of themes and tone does not surprise me. The fact that he very cynically engineered Titanic to be how it was does not surprise me. This is not the first time James Cameron has thrown stones from a glass house. Please note, I'm not saying you have to accept the director's vision. You can consume and think whatever you like about Aliens ultimately. It's the beauty of art, it can have many different interpretations that the artist may not have necessarily intended. But that does not mean that the narrative you've constructed is necessarily what they intended either. In a conversation like this, when the director is being hypocritical, we have to keep separate how we perceive the media they've produced and how they did when making it.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Apr 23, 2018 1:39:12 GMT -5
As this discussion continues, I’d also like to remind people that an interviewer asked Cameron a question and that was the answer he got. He didn’t just randomly go into a crowded street and say it to a bunch of people that happened to be interviewers.
Sorry, getting my pet peeve out of the way. Carry on!
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 23, 2018 5:26:47 GMT -5
I feel like I’m one of the few people who doesn’t flat out hate Avatar at this point. It’s nowhere as good as the MCU and I rarely go back to it, but it’s average at worse. I think the biggest issue is that Sam Worthington is such a dull lead it’s hard to become invested in much of what he does. I did like Neytiri a lot though, Saldana is pretty much the best thing about the movie.
The Navi jokes people make are stupid. I actually liked their designs a lot. If Cameron wants to make them attractive to viewers, I don’t understand why audiences have such a hate-on for that creative approach. That’s got nothing to do with the story, because I understand the critiques there. But aesthetically, I approved.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 5:45:58 GMT -5
I haven’t watched Avatar since I saw it in the cinema but I enjoyed it then. It’s not vintage Cameron (except for the batshit crazy last half hour) but it just seems to be missing that something that makes me want to watch it again and again. Titanic can f*** off though. Avatar has zero rewatchablity and loses 95% of it's magic played on a television. That probably explains why I found it outright torturous to sit through, I watched it on TV. Biggest issue I had with the movie though, and I doubt 3D would have changed this, is the Na'vi are a bunch of unlikable shits who cause their own problems and are self-absorbed assholes for most of the movie and yet you're supposed to be wholeheartedly on their side. And about the only reason they can even make try and that happen is by making the humans decide to go from, "Well-intentioned but morally dubious," to, "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" for the climax.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 23, 2018 6:39:22 GMT -5
Avatar has zero rewatchablity and loses 95% of it's magic played on a television. That probably explains why I found it outright torturous to sit through, I watched it on TV. Biggest issue I had with the movie though, and I doubt 3D would have changed this, is the Na'vi are a bunch of unlikable shits who cause their own problems and are self-absorbed assholes for most of the movie and yet you're supposed to be wholeheartedly on their side.And about the only reason they can even make try and that happen is by making the humans decide to go from, "Well-intentioned but morally dubious," to, "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" for the climax. In what way? The Na’vi pretty much got f***ed by the humans consistently from the first frame. What did we do in that movie that was so noble?
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Apr 23, 2018 6:46:41 GMT -5
I feel like I’m one of the few people who doesn’t flat out hate Avatar at this point. It’s nowhere as good as the MCU and I rarely go back to it, but it’s average at worse. I think the biggest issue is that Sam Worthington is such a dull lead it’s hard to become invested in much of what he does. I did like Neytiri a lot though, Saldana is pretty much the best thing about the movie. The Navi jokes people make are stupid. I actually liked their designs a lot. If Cameron wants to make them attractive to viewers, I don’t understand why audiences have such a hate-on for that creative approach. That’s got nothing to do with the story, because I understand the critiques there. But aesthetically, I approved. I don't hate Avatar, but it's like say Krull or something; mediocre sci-fi actioner and that's about it. It just looked prettier. I don't think the Navi jokes are stupid either, they're well-designed for what they are, but that design is kinda goofy at its core. There's nothing inherently bad about it, but it's definitely not above bein poked fun at either.
|
|
Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,563
|
Post by Ben Wyatt on Apr 23, 2018 6:54:15 GMT -5
So the director that has made two good movies, Terminator and the Abyss,and a bunch of crap,all his other films,is hating on more good films. Cameron is a dink, but let's not get silly now. While he comes off as a total ass, I kinda get his point in terms of the Superhero genre. Most of 'em have been good to great movies, but it's kinda exhausting following along with what feels like 72 different movies and 187 different characters in order to be "up to date" when Infinity Wars hits this week.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 23, 2018 6:56:11 GMT -5
I feel like I’m one of the few people who doesn’t flat out hate Avatar at this point. It’s nowhere as good as the MCU and I rarely go back to it, but it’s average at worse. I think the biggest issue is that Sam Worthington is such a dull lead it’s hard to become invested in much of what he does. I did like Neytiri a lot though, Saldana is pretty much the best thing about the movie. The Navi jokes people make are stupid. I actually liked their designs a lot. If Cameron wants to make them attractive to viewers, I don’t understand why audiences have such a hate-on for that creative approach. That’s got nothing to do with the story, because I understand the critiques there. But aesthetically, I approved. I don't hate Avatar, but it's like say Krull or something; mediocre sci-fi actioner and that's about it. It just looked prettier. I don't think the Navi jokes are stupid either, they're well-designed for what they are, but that design is kinda goofy at its core. There's nothing inherently bad about it, but it's definitely not above bein poked fun at either. How? I think the Na’vi designs are probably the least goofy thing about the film. I can see where people might find the story corny, but can one really say they look sillier than say, a Minion? That’s a goofy design to me. The Avatar characters look pretty sophisticated, IMO.
|
|
|
Post by Alice Syndrome on Apr 23, 2018 7:07:20 GMT -5
So James Cameron has gone full asshole then? Check some of the production backstory for The Abyss. James Cameron has been a superdouche for at least 30 years
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 7:11:49 GMT -5
That probably explains why I found it outright torturous to sit through, I watched it on TV. Biggest issue I had with the movie though, and I doubt 3D would have changed this, is the Na'vi are a bunch of unlikable shits who cause their own problems and are self-absorbed assholes for most of the movie and yet you're supposed to be wholeheartedly on their side.And about the only reason they can even make try and that happen is by making the humans decide to go from, "Well-intentioned but morally dubious," to, "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" for the climax. In what way? The Na’vi pretty much got f***ed by the humans consistently from the first frame. What did we do in that movie that was so noble? Not saying the humans came off great either, just the Na'vi came off like a bunch of self-absorbed xenophobic ass-hats who basically utterly refused to listen to any sort of attempt to negotiate and seem to see themselves as the only beings that remotely matter. The humans got worse when they just decided, "Let's bomb their city then destroy their god tree for no reason!" but for a lot of the movie pretty much every individual Na'vi was coming off like either a dick or just plain not interesting. Granted my perspective is probably skewed by the fact the only characters I found even slightly entertaining - general guy and hardass self-sacrifice woman - were on the human side, so I was pretty much naturally inclined to root for them.
|
|
|
Post by Alexander The So-so on Apr 23, 2018 7:15:02 GMT -5
Cameron's a weird, polarizing guy, and say what you want about his movies and his recent statements. But I'm with him on this. I've long reached Marvel fatigue; the content saturation has just gotten to me. No interest whatsoever in Infinity Gauntlet. Guess you'll be posting your review of Infinity War on opening night then? I skipped out on Black Panther. To this day I haven't seen it. That's how sick of Marvel I am. No, I'll live without seeing Infinity War.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 23, 2018 7:28:39 GMT -5
In what way? The Na’vi pretty much got f***ed by the humans consistently from the first frame. What did we do in that movie that was so noble? Not saying the humans came off great either, just the Na'vi came off like a bunch of self-absorbed xenophobic ass-hats who basically utterly refused to listen to any sort of attempt to negotiate and seem to see themselves as the only beings that remotely matter. The humans got worse when they just decided, "Let's bomb their city then destroy their god tree for no reason!" but for a lot of the movie pretty much every individual Na'vi was coming off like either a dick or just plain not interesting. Granted my perspective is probably skewed by the fact the only characters I found even slightly entertaining - general guy and hardass self-sacrifice woman - were on the human side, so I was pretty much naturally inclined to root for them. They shouldn’t have had to negotiate, which was Cameron’s point with the story, IMO. The RDA had every opportunity to peacefully reach out to the Na’vi, and they logically could have avoided bloodshed if they so chose.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 7:50:39 GMT -5
That probably explains why I found it outright torturous to sit through, I watched it on TV. Biggest issue I had with the movie though, and I doubt 3D would have changed this, is the Na'vi are a bunch of unlikable shits who cause their own problems and are self-absorbed assholes for most of the movie and yet you're supposed to be wholeheartedly on their side.And about the only reason they can even make try and that happen is by making the humans decide to go from, "Well-intentioned but morally dubious," to, "MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!" for the climax. In what way? The Na’vi pretty much got f***ed by the humans consistently from the first frame. What did we do in that movie that was so noble? Because the Navi were asshats. Humanity needed resources to survive, and there was an attempt at negotiations, but the blue aliens were all "Hell no!". In order to make them sympathetic, however, Act 3 had to be the human forces becoming generic evildoers. Boy, you must've REALLY hated the video game where you could play as the humans and bomb those aliens to kingdom come.
|
|
Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
Posts: 8,172
|
Post by Juice on Apr 23, 2018 7:50:51 GMT -5
He's right too. It would be nice to see more quality stories get green lit and a few less superhero plots. Except there aren't less quality stories. There's always been blockbusters and there's always been prestige pictures, and one doesn't really affect the other. On top of that, the superhero market is dominated by Marvel Studios, DC Films - both of which exist for the sole purpose of making superhero movies - and Fox, which is still putting out as much variety as it ever has and is happy to pump a literal billion dollars into his four blue cat people movies. Superhero movies going away isn't going to make two of those studios start putting out high art dramas or anything. There are far more cgi, hero vs bad guy stuff now then before. Its not just specifically superhero movies. And for most part I like them. Obviously Marvel has a good track record despite being very formulaic. They know their formula and do well with it. But the serial nature that you must watch ten movies to watch the 11th is irritaing. Black Panther is still in theaters and Avengers releases Friday. That's too much in a short period of time. Horror is the only thing that is breaking this cgi blockbuster mold and I am super grateful for it. Also as seen with the superhero genre of comic,book films its not enough just to exist now. Each and every movie ups the stakes, adds new crossovers, etc. How many times can the Avengers save the world before it gets boring as shit? The Cgi in age of Ultron also has aged terribly and Ultron looks awful now. Fox has a horrible track record as does Sony. No one was clamoring for this Venom movie. Id rather watch Tom Hardy in a Del Toro movie or another Nolan film instead. Between the big studios there IS an oversaturation of superhero movies and tv, and I never thought it would get to me but it has. So yeah I agree that there isn't enough variety now, because there isn't. From top of my head DC has 6 hours of weekly serial tv. Marvel has 6 on netflix. Plus Agents of Shield, Agent Carter was a thing. And Inhumans, Including fox and fx there are two xmen shows. HBO is doing Watchmen again, There is The Tick, various other shows on other platforms. In what, 5 months there is Black Panther, Avengers, and Ant Man and Wasp. Ragnarock wasn't far behind either. Next Feb 2 Xmen movies will be released in the same month.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2018 8:00:41 GMT -5
Next Feb 2 Xmen movies will be released in the same month. New Mutants has been pushed back to August. And at this rate probably won't even got theatrical and instead get the straight-to-Netflix treatment that Cloverfield thing did, given with them pushing it back this long it just screams, "This thing is a disaster."
|
|
Juice
El Dandy
Wrong? Oh he can tell ya about being wrong.
I'm the one who raised you from perdition.
Posts: 8,172
|
Post by Juice on Apr 23, 2018 8:02:50 GMT -5
Next Feb 2 Xmen movies will be released in the same month. New Mutants has been pushed back to August. And at this rate probably won't even got theatrical and instead get the straight-to-Netflix treatment that Cloverfield thing did, given with them pushing it back this long it just screams, "This thing is a disaster." Of all the movies of the genre this one actually looks good for it being different. Horror movie in a superhero universe is cool. It's probably being pushed back and reshot to make more of a boring blockbuster.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 23, 2018 8:09:18 GMT -5
In what way? The Na’vi pretty much got f***ed by the humans consistently from the first frame. What did we do in that movie that was so noble? Because the Navi were asshats. Humanity needed resources to survive, and there was an attempt at negotiations, but the blue aliens were all "Hell no!". In order to make them sympathetic, however, Act 3 had to be the human forces becoming generic evildoers. Boy, you must've REALLY hated the video game where you could play as the humans and bomb those aliens to kingdom come. Actually, I never played the game. I don’t know why you automatically assumed I did.
|
|
Shai
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,507
|
Post by Shai on Apr 23, 2018 8:56:54 GMT -5
You know honest to god when anyone says their sick of superheroes I'm like well if you don't like them don't go see them. Leave them to the rest of us.
This "I don't like this thing so it shouldn't exist" attitude is the worst.
|
|
Heartbreaker
King Koopa
Is actually Bindi Irwin
RIP Punk's media scrum, Page 54, Muffins, Biting People Bad™ (2022 - 2022)
Posts: 11,846
|
Post by Heartbreaker on Apr 23, 2018 9:08:58 GMT -5
You know honest to god when anyone says their sick of superheroes I'm like well if you don't like them don't go see them. Leave them to the rest of us. This "I don't like this thing so it shouldn't exist" attitude is the worst. Seriously. Nobody's forcing you to go see the movies, but some people sure act like it.
|
|