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Post by mauled on May 12, 2018 1:51:07 GMT -5
Arguments for and against accepted It’s certainly up there, other contenders would be; Benoit v Angle from 03 Rumble - For obvious reasons this can’t be shown or acknowledged but it is such a classic it arguably was the greatest match in Jmo. Steamboat v Savage Pure excellence and the speed it was done to Austin v Bret WM13 has any match done a double turn quite like this. HBK v Taker Hell in a Cell Truly phenomenal and genuine a first HBK v Razor WM10 Ladder Match Again it was show stealer
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Post by mauled on May 12, 2018 1:57:26 GMT -5
If not the best, then it's certainly in the running. My personal shortlist is HBK/Taker from Mania 25 HBK/Angle from Mania 21 HHH/HBK/Benoit from Mania 20 Taker/Foley Hell in a Cell TLC from Mania 17 Rewatched the WM20 not to long back and speaking only for myself I don’t think it holds up. They throw one of the guys out who somehow can’t get back up until another guy is thrown out and he’s back in - rinse repeat albeit the match still has a great finish
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Post by mauled on May 12, 2018 1:59:12 GMT -5
You have the two correct wrestlers but the incorrect match. While there WM25 match was great, the Bad Blood HIAC 1997 blows it away. Shawn Michaels and Undertaker were in there physical peak and primes in 1997, especially Shawn Michaels. BBHIAC 1997 is and will forever be the GOAT match in my opinion. The storytelling, the spots, the brutality, the ending, absolutely FLAWLESS match from top to bottom and what I feel is the biggest match of Undertaker's career in making him a huge star. Not just that match but Takers match with Bret at One Night Only was also incredible especially except for the one time Taker breaks the SharpShooter they don’t actually use a finisher in that Match Btw Taker has openly said he loves his matches with Bret so it’s not just me
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,435
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Post by Fade on May 12, 2018 4:10:59 GMT -5
I mean, i cant say it's my favorite, but I often think of it when the question at hand is "Best Match". The back and fourth nature of it, the legendary status of both guys, juxtaposition of both characters. the seamlessness and flow between the two and the stakes and crowd reaction to the match. I think it's a quintessential example of what pro-wrestling should be.
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Jiren
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Hearts Bayformers
Posts: 35,163
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Post by Jiren on May 12, 2018 4:12:17 GMT -5
No, not even close
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on May 12, 2018 4:25:05 GMT -5
No. I consider HBK/Flair to be the best WWE match of all time, and possibly the best match of all time full stop. It's not a spotfest, it's not the most athletic spectacle even with HBK bumping like crazy and Flair rolling back the years one last time, but in terms of pure drama, emotion and storytelling, I don't think anything has ever come close, and to me the essence of wrestling is the story told in the match, not just the moves. It's why I think Goldberg/Brock at Survivor Series is fantastic booking, it's why I think it's going to be hard to top Suzuki/Tanahashi for this year's MOTC.
HBK/Flair is an absolute masterpiece in the then-conclusion to Ric Flair's nearly 40 year story and I don't know if it can be topped.
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Post by evilone on May 12, 2018 4:47:57 GMT -5
No. I consider HBK/Flair to be the best WWE match of all time, and possibly the best match of all time full stop. It's not a spotfest, it's not the most athletic spectacle even with HBK bumping like crazy and Flair rolling back the years one last time, but in terms of pure drama, emotion and storytelling, I don't think anything has ever come close, and to me the essence of wrestling is the story told in the match, not just the moves. It's why I think Goldberg/Brock at Survivor Series is fantastic booking, it's why I think it's going to be hard to top Suzuki/Tanahashi for this year's MOTC. HBK/Flair is an absolute masterpiece in the then-conclusion to Ric Flair's nearly 40 year story and I don't know if it can be topped. Except the Flair should have won that damn match. There are few wrestlers out there who deserve to go with a win on their shoulders and Flair was one of them. Shawn should have won his retirement match as well.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on May 12, 2018 5:43:20 GMT -5
The Hell in a Cell match is easily their best, imo. Also, Shawn and Undertaker have had better matches with other opponents.
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Post by mauled on May 12, 2018 6:29:02 GMT -5
No. I consider HBK/Flair to be the best WWE match of all time, and possibly the best match of all time full stop. It's not a spotfest, it's not the most athletic spectacle even with HBK bumping like crazy and Flair rolling back the years one last time, but in terms of pure drama, emotion and storytelling, I don't think anything has ever come close, and to me the essence of wrestling is the story told in the match, not just the moves. It's why I think Goldberg/Brock at Survivor Series is fantastic booking, it's why I think it's going to be hard to top Suzuki/Tanahashi for this year's MOTC. HBK/Flair is an absolute masterpiece in the then-conclusion to Ric Flair's nearly 40 year story and I don't know if it can be topped. Except the Flair should have won that damn match. There are few wrestlers out there who deserve to go with a win on their shoulders and Flair was one of them. Shawn should have won his retirement match as well. Does it detract from it that straight after that he went on a Tour of Australia jobbing out to Hogan every night 🤔
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,969
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Post by lucas_lee on May 12, 2018 7:18:57 GMT -5
My favorite 5 WWE Matches ever (in no order) Hart vs Austin WM 13 HBK vs Taker WM 25 CM Punk vs Cena MITB Angle vs HBK Vengence HBK vs Taker Bad Blood 97 (I think)
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Bad Moon
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Posts: 3,091
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Post by Bad Moon on May 12, 2018 7:23:10 GMT -5
I remember even at the time first watching it I thought Taker's match against Batista of all people from two years earlier was better.
I haven't re-watched either match since though, so I could be way off base.
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mattperiolat
King Koopa
Thank you, Brodie... for everything.
Posts: 11,447
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Post by mattperiolat on May 12, 2018 9:41:46 GMT -5
Arguments for and against accepted I’m biased due to respect for Shawn and my absolute worship of Taker. Mad props to the other greats (Savage/Steamboat, Jericho/Michaels, Savage/Hogan, Savage/Flair) in my personal book, but I love this match so much. It’s honestly enhanced by a shockingly lackluster Mania card and two vets just refusing to let it suck. Aside for Taker’s bump and Sim Snuka unable to play catch, it’s fantastic if not near flawless. It’s without question one of the best of the last 20 years IMHO, so good it spawned a nearly equally good one year later. Plus, it lived up to the feud years in the past with classics like Ground Zero and Hell in a Cell. Yes, it is that damn good. And for me, that damn special.
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Post by KofiMania on May 12, 2018 11:27:01 GMT -5
Except the Flair should have won that damn match. There are few wrestlers out there who deserve to go with a win on their shoulders and Flair was one of them. Shawn should have won his retirement match as well. Does it detract from it that straight after that he went on a Tour of Australia jobbing out to Hogan every night 🤔 That was like a year and a half later.
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Post by KofiMania on May 12, 2018 11:28:08 GMT -5
No. I consider HBK/Flair to be the best WWE match of all time, and possibly the best match of all time full stop. It's not a spotfest, it's not the most athletic spectacle even with HBK bumping like crazy and Flair rolling back the years one last time, but in terms of pure drama, emotion and storytelling, I don't think anything has ever come close, and to me the essence of wrestling is the story told in the match, not just the moves. It's why I think Goldberg/Brock at Survivor Series is fantastic booking, it's why I think it's going to be hard to top Suzuki/Tanahashi for this year's MOTC. HBK/Flair is an absolute masterpiece in the then-conclusion to Ric Flair's nearly 40 year story and I don't know if it can be topped. Except the Flair should have won that damn match. There are few wrestlers out there who deserve to go with a win on their shoulders and Flair was one of them. Shawn should have won his retirement match as well. The stipulation of lose and you must retire added to the matches, though.
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Post by KofiMania on May 12, 2018 11:30:10 GMT -5
I actually hate it. The botches hurt it, plus in general the match did not live up to the hype for me. The rematch? THAT is a classic. What botches? Even Snuka not catching him actually added to the match.
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Post by "The Bantam" Rob Boss on May 12, 2018 12:18:37 GMT -5
Apart from the WMXX main event, no other match has ever had me as emotionally invested as this one. And kudos to the poster earlier for blowing apart this BS myth that it’s a finisher kick-out fest.
I recognise some other matches come close but the stage, the setting... I just wish it had main-evented. The following year just didn’t have that same impact.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on May 12, 2018 12:27:54 GMT -5
Nah. "Finish, Kick out, finish, kick out, finish, kick out" is a match a lot of guys would get lambasted for, but because it's HBK and 'Taker, they get a pass. And all that match is is "Finish, kick out" ad infinitum. Size vs Speed established straight away as Shawn rushes around the ring trying to avoid getting tangled in a fist fight with Taker. Unfortunately Taker is way too quick for his size for Shawn to do this. Shawn gets thrown onto the turnbuckle and tells Taker to suck it. For all the Light vs Dark stuff he pushes, he's still the cocky prick that Taker had to deal with 11-12 years earlier. As evidence by Shawn faking an injury to gain the upper hand. Taker breaks out the classics such as Old School and the leg drop on the apron. You go to your tried and tested favourites unless forced out of it. Shawn goes for the kick at one point but Taker falls pre-emptively. Shawn immediately chases him into the inverted figure 4. Not a second waisted. Shawn never loses sight of the task at hand. No playing to the crowd, it's all business. Taker throws up Hell's Gate in return, Shawn scrambles for the ropes. He doesn't give it a chance. Even with their minimal contact over the last 12 years, he knows what to look for. Shawn uses multiple go for broke tactics throughout the match because A) the task at hand and B) hes the Showstopper. Here he goes for the moonsault to the floor where Taker just swats him to the ground. Taker goes for the top rope dive and Shawn throws a prone body in front of him, which ends up in Taker spiking his head. Shawn then realises he has a chance to end the Streak. A countout is a win. That's all that matters. You can see the desperation in his face as Taker inches closer and closer to the ring and finally gets back in to Shawn's dismay. I wrote this off the top of my head, this is the first half of the match, not one finisher is kicked out of. There are 2 finisher kickouts in this match (3 if you still consider The Last Ride a genuine finisher, as I cant remember the last match he won with it). Shawn lands one genuine Sweet Chin Music and Takers first Tombstone gets kicked out of. It irritates the shit out of me when people just write this match off as a kickout fest. If you dont like it thats fine, but disliking it for completely erroneous reasoning is pretty weak. It sounds like someone watched a highlight vid of the match and just decided that must have been what the whole 30 mins was. I think you wrote a great defense of this match. The WM 25 match is not a finisher kickout fest. However, it is safe to say that the lesson Undertaker, WWE, and the other main eventers in the company took from that match was not the psychology you well described; it was "Did you hear that pop when Shawn kicked out of the Tombstone?" This wasn't a finisher kickout fest, but that moment is the demarcation point for the finisher kickout style of match becoming so prominent in WWE.
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Post by mauled on May 12, 2018 12:40:58 GMT -5
Does it detract from it that straight after that he went on a Tour of Australia jobbing out to Hogan every night 🤔 That was like a year and a half later. Either way it still shouldn’t have happened
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Post by mauled on May 12, 2018 12:42:03 GMT -5
Size vs Speed established straight away as Shawn rushes around the ring trying to avoid getting tangled in a fist fight with Taker. Unfortunately Taker is way too quick for his size for Shawn to do this. Shawn gets thrown onto the turnbuckle and tells Taker to suck it. For all the Light vs Dark stuff he pushes, he's still the cocky prick that Taker had to deal with 11-12 years earlier. As evidence by Shawn faking an injury to gain the upper hand. Taker breaks out the classics such as Old School and the leg drop on the apron. You go to your tried and tested favourites unless forced out of it. Shawn goes for the kick at one point but Taker falls pre-emptively. Shawn immediately chases him into the inverted figure 4. Not a second waisted. Shawn never loses sight of the task at hand. No playing to the crowd, it's all business. Taker throws up Hell's Gate in return, Shawn scrambles for the ropes. He doesn't give it a chance. Even with their minimal contact over the last 12 years, he knows what to look for. Shawn uses multiple go for broke tactics throughout the match because A) the task at hand and B) hes the Showstopper. Here he goes for the moonsault to the floor where Taker just swats him to the ground. Taker goes for the top rope dive and Shawn throws a prone body in front of him, which ends up in Taker spiking his head. Shawn then realises he has a chance to end the Streak. A countout is a win. That's all that matters. You can see the desperation in his face as Taker inches closer and closer to the ring and finally gets back in to Shawn's dismay. I wrote this off the top of my head, this is the first half of the match, not one finisher is kicked out of. There are 2 finisher kickouts in this match (3 if you still consider The Last Ride a genuine finisher, as I cant remember the last match he won with it). Shawn lands one genuine Sweet Chin Music and Takers first Tombstone gets kicked out of. It irritates the shit out of me when people just write this match off as a kickout fest. If you dont like it thats fine, but disliking it for completely erroneous reasoning is pretty weak. It sounds like someone watched a highlight vid of the match and just decided that must have been what the whole 30 mins was. I think you wrote a great defense of this match. The WM 25 match is not a finisher kickout fest. However, it is safe to say that the lesson Undertaker, WWE, and the other main eventers in the company took from that match was not the psychology you well described; it was "Did you hear that pop when Shawn kicked out of the Tombstone?" This wasn't a finisher kickout fest, but that moment is the demarcation point for the finisher kickout style of match becoming so prominent in WWE. Ironic that happened as the WM26 rematch wasn’t really a kick out fest and was more about solid storytelling
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on May 12, 2018 12:50:08 GMT -5
There are honestly probably a dozen to choose from and while I am not sure it is, one of my current favorites is Almas/Gargano. That was phenomenal.
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