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Post by eJm on May 24, 2018 11:45:25 GMT -5
I mean...WCW is dead in part because of Hogan.
WWE is making the most money they’ve made ever and Lesnar is one of the top champions.
There’s a tonne more to this and some semantics here and there but looking at it one way...not really.
Also, the only times Lesnar’s allegedly put his foot down was for a match against Shane and a match against Jinder. Those resulted with Goldberg/Lesnar and AJ/Lesnar in the same year so we won in that front.
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Post by Rolent Tex on May 24, 2018 18:41:28 GMT -5
I mean...WCW is dead in part because of Hogan. WWE is making the most money they’ve made ever and Lesnar is one of the top champions. There’s a tonne more to this and some semantics here and there but looking at it one way...not really. Also, the only times Lesnar’s allegedly put his foot down was for a match against Shane and a match against Jinder. Those resulted with Goldberg/Lesnar and AJ/Lesnar in the same year so we won in that front. Yes I know this may go off topic a little. We may have won by getting better matches but he’s still unprofessional for calling his own shots...unless he secretly has one of those old WCW Creative Control clauses in his deal. Hogan basically did nothing wrong on that front. It was Bischoff and Turner that dangled that carrot in front of him to stick it to Vince. Hell, I’m sure if any of us had the same sweet deal that we’d pull the same garbage and get our less talented lackeys/friends sweet jobs too. That and there’s still the question of who you believe on who’s idea the Starrcade booking was. Obviously the Bret Hart part was thrown in last second to cash in off the Montreal Screwjob. What was the plan before that? Hogan said he wanted Sting to basically squash him but Bischoff and Nash were against derailing the nWo gravy train and talked him out of it for the shenanigans we got. Question is which bullshitter you believe most. Also, Hogan and Bischoff were on board with the Jarrett shoot angle until Russo went into business for himself and shot all over PPV. It doesn’t matter who you are, if you go into business for yourself you’re a douche. That includes Bret refusing to job in Montreal, all of HBK’s crap including against Hogan, Austin refusing to work with Gunn/Jarrett/Brock, Cena and Nexus amongst others and Brock calling the shots in his match with Ambrose and not working with Shane/Jinder. It’s Vince’s company and he pays you very, verrry well. Get your ass out there and do the match that’s been booked. (Don’t forget that Brock’s agreement to let Goldberg squash him if he got the title cost us KO/Y2J for the title at Mania. It’s not his own booking he affected.)
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Post by mauled on May 25, 2018 11:04:06 GMT -5
I mean...WCW is dead in part because of Hogan. WWE is making the most money they’ve made ever and Lesnar is one of the top champions. There’s a tonne more to this and some semantics here and there but looking at it one way...not really. Also, the only times Lesnar’s allegedly put his foot down was for a match against Shane and a match against Jinder. Those resulted with Goldberg/Lesnar and AJ/Lesnar in the same year so we won in that front. Yes I know this may go off topic a little. We may have won by getting better matches but he’s still unprofessional for calling his own shots...unless he secretly has one of those old WCW Creative Control clauses in his deal. Hogan basically did nothing wrong on that front. It was Bischoff and Turner that dangled that carrot in front of him to stick it to Vince. Hell, I’m sure if any of us had the same sweet deal that we’d pull the same garbage and get our less talented lackeys/friends sweet jobs too. That and there’s still the question of who you believe on who’s idea the Starrcade booking was. Obviously the Bret Hart part was thrown in last second to cash in off the Montreal Screwjob. What was the plan before that? Hogan said he wanted Sting to basically squash him but Bischoff and Nash were against derailing the nWo gravy train and talked him out of it for the shenanigans we got. Question is which bullshitter you believe most. Also, Hogan and Bischoff were on board with the Jarrett shoot angle until Russo went into business for himself and shot all over PPV. It doesn’t matter who you are, if you go into business for yourself you’re a douche. That includes Bret refusing to job in Montreal, all of HBK’s crap including against Hogan, Austin refusing to work with Gunn/Jarrett/Brock, Cena and Nexus amongst others and Brock calling the shots in his match with Ambrose and not working with Shane/Jinder. It’s Vince’s company and he pays you very, verrry well. Get your ass out there and do the match that’s been booked. (Don’t forget that Brock’s agreement to let Goldberg squash him if he got the title cost us KO/Y2J for the title at Mania. It’s not his own booking he affected.) Hogan did nothing wrong 🤷♂️ There was originally a Plan for WCW to expand into Canada doing House shows with a Bret v Hogan feud and take it from the WWF. Someone said that don’t work for me brother it got canned. Who do you think that was 🤔
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Post by eJm on May 25, 2018 11:37:01 GMT -5
I mean...WCW is dead in part because of Hogan. WWE is making the most money they’ve made ever and Lesnar is one of the top champions. There’s a tonne more to this and some semantics here and there but looking at it one way...not really. Also, the only times Lesnar’s allegedly put his foot down was for a match against Shane and a match against Jinder. Those resulted with Goldberg/Lesnar and AJ/Lesnar in the same year so we won in that front. Yes I know this may go off topic a little. We may have won by getting better matches but he’s still unprofessional for calling his own shots...u nless he secretly has one of those old WCW Creative Control clauses in his deal. Of course Brock got creative control in his contract. He wouldn't be paid as much if he didn't. And honestly, I didn't quote the rest of your post because it's nonsense. If you don't want people using creative control on you, if you don't want Bret disagreeing with how he wants to lose the title or Roman saying he'd rather walk out of the Rumble on his own accord than be taken away or Jinder being able to be the promo he wants or Cena saying the Nexus should lose, don't give them creative control. People can't act surprise when they use it. And yeah, Vince pays people well, but considering all the history of people standing up to him, you should be able to protect what you have because you're the one losing out on more money. The atmosphere just makes that difficult because apparently the writers are bunked up in a truck a thousand miles away never allowed to interact with talent and Vince has a snow cone/steak schedule nobody understands.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 25, 2018 11:51:29 GMT -5
Yes I know this may go off topic a little. We may have won by getting better matches but he’s still unprofessional for calling his own shots...u nless he secretly has one of those old WCW Creative Control clauses in his deal. Of course Brock got creative control in his contract. He wouldn't be paid as much if he didn't. And honestly, I didn't quote the rest of your post because it's nonsense. If you don't want people using creative control on you, if you don't want Bret disagreeing with how he wants to lose the title or Roman saying he'd rather walk out of the Rumble on his own accord than be taken away or Jinder being able to be the promo he wants or Cena saying the Nexus should lose, don't give them creative control. People can't act surprise when they use it. And yeah, Vince pays people well, but considering all the history of people standing up to him, you should be able to protect what you have because you're the one losing out on more money. The atmosphere just makes that difficult because apparently the writers are bunked up in a truck a thousand miles away never allowed to interact with talent and Vince has a snow cone/steak schedule nobody understands. Whoa hold that train up. Roman and Jinder absolutely both said they have creative control but I'm 100% certain that isn't in their contracts the way Hogan had. Theirs just means Vince gave them a loose leash and were allowed to do as they seen fit with their characters when they're in the ring promoing. Also I entirely doubt Cena has Hogan's creative control clause in that sense.
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Post by eJm on May 25, 2018 11:55:36 GMT -5
Of course Brock got creative control in his contract. He wouldn't be paid as much if he didn't. And honestly, I didn't quote the rest of your post because it's nonsense. If you don't want people using creative control on you, if you don't want Bret disagreeing with how he wants to lose the title or Roman saying he'd rather walk out of the Rumble on his own accord than be taken away or Jinder being able to be the promo he wants or Cena saying the Nexus should lose, don't give them creative control. People can't act surprise when they use it. And yeah, Vince pays people well, but considering all the history of people standing up to him, you should be able to protect what you have because you're the one losing out on more money. The atmosphere just makes that difficult because apparently the writers are bunked up in a truck a thousand miles away never allowed to interact with talent and Vince has a snow cone/steak schedule nobody understands. Whoa hold that train up. Roman and Jinder absolutely both said they have creative control but I'm 100% certain that isn't in their contracts the way Hogan had. Theirs just means Vince gave them a loose leash and were allowed to do as they seen fit with their characters when they're in the ring promoing. Also I entirely doubt Cena has Hogan's creative control clause in that sense. Ok, that was a super overreaction so I'll retract the Roman, Cena and Jinder stuff as it was trying to make a general point about people just doing what Vince says all the time because of payment (which is nonsense of the highest order). I stand by Bret and Brock because they are known to have/probably have creative control though.
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Post by bcdx97 on May 25, 2018 11:56:24 GMT -5
At least Hollywood showed up on TV most of the time.
Has there ever been another champ who is almost never there?
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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 25, 2018 12:23:44 GMT -5
At least Hollywood showed up on TV most of the time. Has there ever been another champ who is almost never there? Nope. This is a first for a champion. The closest example is Hogan in the 80s. As a TV viewer you wouldn't see Hogan matches. He was saved for house shows, SNME, and PPVs for the most part. Hell, video rentals were the easiest way to check him out. Point is you had to pay to see the top dog perform unless a SNME was happening. Watching SuperStars as your primary source for WWF consumption, you'd still see him via promos and angle recaps and had guys talking about coming after him and his title though. That's the big difference. Hogan was still all over the product, even while absent from it. I personally like the *concept* of the absentee champion. It makes seeing him and the belt feel special. It also helps setup a "fighting champion" gimmick for someone later and makes that special in a different way because it feels like a treat to see the champion defend on TV more often than the prior one. The execution however leaves a lot to be desired here. Lesnar not being around doesn't bug me like most, but I absolutely agree they should be using his Final Boss status weekly to remind us he's the champ and people should be tearing eachother apart tooth and nail for the right to fight him. I feel this reign would have a better response if instead of handing Roman freebie shots every month if dudes were treating "THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER" as a title in itself. Throw vignettes and promos up weekly of Brock trashing guys and daring them to step up when they've earned the right, encouraging dudes to fight eachother like a sadistic puppetmaster. When the most hated babyface in history whining weekly is your main character involvement for the most absent champion in history, you end up with a perfect storm of garbage where the fanbase just turns on them both and the title itself.
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Post by Cyno on May 25, 2018 12:32:58 GMT -5
I see this as being a "shot in the head" vs. "poisoned" comparison.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 25, 2018 12:39:08 GMT -5
At least Hollywood showed up on TV most of the time. Has there ever been another champ who is almost never there? Nope. This is a first for a champion. The closest example is Hogan in the 80s. As a TV viewer you wouldn't see Hogan matches. He was saved for house shows, SNME, and PPVs for the most part. Hell, video rentals were the easiest way to check him out. Point is you had to pay to see the top dog perform unless a SNME was happening. Watching SuperStars as your primary source for WWF consumption, you'd still see him via promos and angle recaps and had guys talking about coming after him and his title though. That's the big difference. Hogan was still all over the product, even while absent from it. I personally like the *concept* of the absentee champion. It makes seeing him and the belt feel special. It also helps setup a "fighting champion" gimmick for someone later and makes that special in a different way because it feels like a treat to see the champion defend on TV more often than the prior one. The execution however leaves a lot to be desired here. Lesnar not being around doesn't bug me like most, but I absolutely agree they should be using his Final Boss status weekly to remind us he's the champ and people should be tearing eachother apart tooth and nail for the right to fight him. I feel this reign would have a better response if instead of handing Roman freebie shots every month if dudes were treating "THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER" as a title in itself. Throw vignettes and promos up weekly of Brock trashing guys and daring them to step up when they've earned the right, encouraging dudes to fight eachother like a sadistic puppetmaster. When the most hated babyface in history whining weekly is your main character involvement for the most absent champion in history, you end up with a perfect storm of garbage where the fanbase just turns on them both and the title itself. Yep, to all of this. in the original WWE Title run (I haven't seen it as much this time) people would say oh it's just like Hogan in the 80's... when no it's not. Hogan may have wrestled once in a blue moon on TV... but he had promos, the announcers talked up him and his current feud, his opponents would have squash matches while there's a picture in picture promo happening etc. There was NO denying that Hogan was THE GUY. When Brock has the title... the title goes with him. No one seems to give a shit that the world title isn't on the show... hell at that point it felt like Seth was the World Champion becuase he was pretty much in the slots where the champ would have been. and now the story seems to be no one cares that Brock isn't there... except Roman all of a sudden... and Roman gets title shots... because Roman.
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Post by StreetCutter on May 25, 2018 12:45:11 GMT -5
Hogan also did tons of house shows whereas Brock has hardly done any.
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Post by Facetious on May 25, 2018 12:48:53 GMT -5
At least Hollywood showed up on TV most of the time. Has there ever been another champ who is almost never there? Lesnar not being around doesn't bug me like most, but I absolutely agree they should be using his Final Boss status weekly to remind us he's the champ and people should be tearing eachother apart tooth and nail for the right to fight him. I feel this reign would have a better response if instead of handing Roman freebie shots every month if dudes were treating "THE NUMBER ONE CONTENDER" as a title in itself. Throw vignettes and promos up weekly of Brock trashing guys and daring them to step up when they've earned the right, encouraging dudes to fight eachother like a sadistic puppetmaster. You know, looking back, I think Joe is the only one to salivate at the idea of taking down Lesnar. He played mind games and attacked him at every turn and it made for an exciting program.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on May 25, 2018 12:51:08 GMT -5
Hogan also did tons of house shows whereas Brock has hardly done any. How’d that decision work out for WCW?
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Post by A Platypus Rave on May 25, 2018 12:53:41 GMT -5
Hogan also did tons of house shows whereas Brock has hardly done any. How’d that decision work out for WCW? I believe that was specifically 80s WWF Hogan he was talking about there.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 25, 2018 13:03:25 GMT -5
Hogan also did tons of house shows whereas Brock has hardly done any. How’d that decision work out for WCW? If we're talking WCW/NWO Hogan here, him not wrestling regularly wasn't a big deal at all. He was out there almost every week involved in physical confrontations anyways. Gang beating of a face or running like a coward. Hogan was heavily involved weekly, sometimes even in multiple segments. It's the shit decisions they went with in his matches that are the huge issue at debate here.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on May 25, 2018 13:10:29 GMT -5
How’d that decision work out for WCW? I believe that was specifically 80s WWF Hogan he was talking about there. Thread title specifies WCW Hogan, so I’m not sure why that’s relevant.
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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 25, 2018 13:12:22 GMT -5
I believe that was specifically 80s WWF Hogan he was talking about there. Thread title specifies WCW Hogan, so I’m not sure why that’s relevant. Because conversation dipped a toe into 80s WWF Hogan for a comparison. Read more than the title. That's why it's relevant.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on May 25, 2018 13:12:50 GMT -5
How’d that decision work out for WCW? If we're talking WCW/NWO Hogan here, him not wrestling regularly wasn't a big deal at all. He was out there almost every week involved in physical confrontations anyways. Gang beating of a face or running like a coward. Hogan was heavily involved weekly, sometimes even in multiple segments. It's the shit decisions they went with in his matches that are the huge issue at debate here. I completely agree. Brock may not be there often but it feels like a big deal when he is. Hogan was CONSTANTLY on screen doing the same thing he had already done a million times (the aforementioned beat downs and such), and even when he wasn’t the commentators were making sure to sell how dangerous the NWO was. This was a serious, serious detriment to every other performer on the roster. To argue that Brock’s light work schedule has the same negative gravitational effect is insane.
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Post by Rolent Tex on May 25, 2018 13:17:36 GMT -5
Hogan also did tons of house shows whereas Brock has hardly done any. Brock has worked more house shows than I think we give him credit for. They just happen to be big house shows (sometimes taped and aired on the network). Kofi, Miz, Show, Kane, Roman at GRR...who else?
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Post by Mister Pigwell on May 25, 2018 13:18:04 GMT -5
As for my own opinion here, I think WCW Hogan had both a better and a worse effect on the product just depending on what Hogan was doing at the time.
So Hogan hurt the product more than Lesnar. But Hogan also helped the product more than Lesnar. Lesnar is just kinda there right now. Except Lesnar isn't there at all. lol I just confused myself.
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