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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 27, 2018 13:27:24 GMT -5
Yeah I think he was. I haven't heard 1 story about Rock not wanting to work with or put someone over besides those HBK stories but we know why Rock said that and it makes sense. Rock's always been amazing. You know, I'm watching some Raws from 97 and I'm in November which is directly after the Screwjob and during that time Rock's starting to call himself "The Rock" and he's working with a midcard Austin, messing around with the Nation, stuff like that. It's great looking back at this time and see guys like Farooq make way for Rock to lead to become who he is today, seeing guys like Austin work with him given he sees where he's going and yet he sees Rock and he knows he's got something, seeing his evolution. Just goes to show you that sometimes helping people out can go a long way. Because of how Rock was treated by the company, he does his best to give that back times 10 for anyone else he works with no matter who they are. He also sold and bumped like a boss for dudes you wouldn't expect to get offense on him
He made Rhyno look like an animal taking that gore
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Jobes
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Post by Jobes on Jun 27, 2018 13:27:48 GMT -5
The whole idea that he had a clause in his contract that he "couldn't lose in Canada" is proof to the contrary. It's fake. The fans know it's fake. You're not going to look "less than" by losing in Canada. The general wrestling fan isn't going to remember where a certain match took place. Most fans probably forget where an event is happening before it even ends. His refusal to put Shawn over isn't as black and white as you put it. Even if Bret relinquished the title the following night on RAW, that kind of buries the title, does it not? "Our champion is giving us the title back so he can go work for the competition," is not a good look for the belt or for the WWF as a whole. Another shining example of non-selfish Bret Hart: youtu.be/av8P_MORJjEHe had a creative control clause in his contract and he used it, whether you think not losing in Canada is silly isn't relevant. Vince was the one who gave the contract with the clause in it to him, as a way to get him to stay when he couldn't pay what WCW was offering Bret. Bret, unlike Shawn had and Triple H would in the future, never gave Vince a reason to think he wouldn't be a professional. Shawn balked at returning the loss at Mania 13 so Bret helped another guy instead, at his own request. Vince's loyalty was to Shawn and his buddy and they got in his ear because they didn't like Bret, simple as. Everyone involved has even said that's how the meeting went. Vince even knew he'd done wrong by Bret when he let him punch him. I also wouldn't take the word of Kevin Nash as gospel on what it is to be professional. Edit: having actually now watched that video, Bret was right. If more people took wrestling and perceptions as seriously as Bret did, we'd all be better off. Bret, having been raised in the business, would most likely understand that etiquette in wrestling is that you always leave the territory "on your back." I wonder how Stu would've reacted if one of his wrestlers said, "Nah, I'm not giving the belt back tonight, Stu." What Vince did was backhanded, but was done ultimately to protect his livelihood. Bret was leaving, and was going to make a literal assload of cash. Bret was going to be okay. Vince, maybe not so much.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 27, 2018 13:31:47 GMT -5
You're joking, right? One of the biggest moments in professional wrestling history concerns Bret's refusal to put another guy over. No. Bret Hart is a valid answer. - jobbed to the Mountie, losing the IC title in the process and sitting out the 1992 Royal Rumble to sell the illness, thereby missing out on a big PPV payday in an era where PPV was scarce, because the boss wanted it that way. - Put over an aging star from a bygone era in Bob Backlund because Vince McMahon wanted to go with Diesel. - Basically made the star of Stone Cold Steve Austin But all it boils down to is a professional difference between him, Vince and Shawn, which wrongly overlooks all the other contribution and sacrifice Bret Hart made during his tenure.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 27, 2018 13:32:43 GMT -5
He had a creative control clause in his contract and he used it, whether you think not losing in Canada is silly isn't relevant. Vince was the one who gave the contract with the clause in it to him, as a way to get him to stay when he couldn't pay what WCW was offering Bret. Bret, unlike Shawn had and Triple H would in the future, never gave Vince a reason to think he wouldn't be a professional. Shawn balked at returning the loss at Mania 13 so Bret helped another guy instead, at his own request. Vince's loyalty was to Shawn and his buddy and they got in his ear because they didn't like Bret, simple as. Everyone involved has even said that's how the meeting went. Vince even knew he'd done wrong by Bret when he let him punch him. I also wouldn't take the word of Kevin Nash as gospel on what it is to be professional. Edit: having actually now watched that video, Bret was right. If more people took wrestling and perceptions as seriously as Bret did, we'd all be better off. Bret, having been raised in the business, would most likely understand that etiquette in wrestling is that you always leave the territory "on your back." I wonder how Stu would've reacted if one of his wrestlers said, "Nah, I'm not giving the belt back tonight, Stu." What Vince did was backhanded, but was done ultimately to protect his livelihood. Bret was leaving, and was going to make a literal assload of cash. Bret was going to be okay. Vince, maybe not so much. You've made my point for me here. Vince, Shawn and Triple H went behind Bret's back and connived to get what they wanted. Vince even involving Triple H in the discussion is unprofessional since Bret's contract has nothing to do with him. Bret was upfront the entire time. He told them what he wanted, as was his right, and they went against his contract to punish him for what they considered to be a slight. Which is hilarious coming from Shawn and Triple H. Bret left with his dignity, having done right by wrestling. He spent his whole career working with lower card people, making people look good, selling for them. He never refused to job to anybody but simply wanted to leave the company on his own terms. If Vince didn't want Bret to have that right he shouldn't have put it in his 20-year contract in his desperation to keep him. And this is where I exit the conversation.
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Facetious
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Post by Facetious on Jun 27, 2018 13:35:56 GMT -5
You're joking, right? One of the biggest moments in professional wrestling history concerns Bret's refusal to put another guy over. Nope. He had creative control in his contract and his refusal was that he didn't want to lose in Canada, as was his right in his contract. Sooooo let's pretend HHH had creative control during his reign of terror and refused to put people over, is that okay too?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2018 13:36:55 GMT -5
The good majority of top stars back before guarantee contracts were selfish. In today's WWE? Daniel Bryan should be up there. Kane too, even though he hasn't been a top star since 1998.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jun 27, 2018 13:37:51 GMT -5
Nope. He had creative control in his contract and his refusal was that he didn't want to lose in Canada, as was his right in his contract. Sooooo if HHH had creative control during his reign of terror and refused to put people over, is that okay too? He didn't?
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Jobes
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Post by Jobes on Jun 27, 2018 13:37:58 GMT -5
Bret, having been raised in the business, would most likely understand that etiquette in wrestling is that you always leave the territory "on your back." I wonder how Stu would've reacted if one of his wrestlers said, "Nah, I'm not giving the belt back tonight, Stu." What Vince did was backhanded, but was done ultimately to protect his livelihood. Bret was leaving, and was going to make a literal assload of cash. Bret was going to be okay. Vince, maybe not so much. You've made my point for me here. Vince, Shawn and Triple H went behind Bret's back and connived to get what they wanted. Vince even involving Triple H in the discussion is unprofessional since Bret's contract has nothing to do with him. Bret was upfront the entire time. He told them what he wanted, as was his right, and they went against his contract to punish him for what they considered to be a slight. Which is hilarious coming from Shawn and Triple H. Bret left with his dignity, having done right by wrestling. He spent his whole career working with lower card people, making people look good, selling for them. He never refused to job to anybody but simply wanted to leave the company on his own terms. If Vince didn't want Bret to have that right he shouldn't have put it in his 20-year contract in his desperation to keep him. And this is where I exit the conversation. Bret Hart had a clause in his contract which allowed him to never lose in Canada. That's where I end my argument.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
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Post by Nosnorb on Jun 27, 2018 13:39:07 GMT -5
I think Foley is probably the least selfish top guy there was. I truly wish more guys approached wrestling in their later stages like he did, he really went the extra mile to make guys. Agree with you on Foley being selfless, but considering he destroyed his body with all those insane spots, and considering he could have used just his mic skills and storytelling to put guys over, I think you can make the arguement that he was too selfless.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 27, 2018 13:41:01 GMT -5
Nope. He had creative control in his contract and his refusal was that he didn't want to lose in Canada, as was his right in his contract. Sooooo if HHH had creative control during his reign of terror and refused to put people over, is that okay too? But he didn't have creative control. He used his political position to put himself over for his own ego, not a legal clause granted to him by the company as in Bret's case. Bret didn't refuse to put anybody over. It wasn't about Shawn but about the location, hence why he volunteered to lose to Shawn the next night. If Triple H didn't want to lose in his hometown you can believe he wouldn't have, creative control clause or not. One has nothing to do with the other.
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Facetious
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Post by Facetious on Jun 27, 2018 13:43:10 GMT -5
Sooooo if HHH had creative control during his reign of terror and refused to put people over, is that okay too? But he didn't have creative control. He us ed his political position to put himself over for his own ego, not a legal clause granted to him by the company as in Bret's case. Bret didn't refuse to put anybody over. It wasn't about Shawn but about the location, hence why he volunteered to lose to Shawn the next night. If Triple H didn't want to lose in his hometown you can believe he wouldn't have. One has nothing to do with the other. I'm well aware hence the IF. "Justified" or not, he didn't want to put him over that night which can be seen as selfish imo.
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Jobes
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Post by Jobes on Jun 27, 2018 13:43:47 GMT -5
Sooooo if HHH had creative control during his reign of terror and refused to put people over, is that okay too? But he didn't have creative control. He used his political position to put himself over for his own ego, not a legal clause granted to him by the company as in Bret's case. Bret didn't refuse to put anybody over. It wasn't about Shawn but about the location, hence why he volunteered to lose to Shawn the next night. If Triple H didn't want to lose in his hometown you can believe he wouldn't have, creative control clause or not. One has nothing to do with the other. Bret used his political position to get a clause put in his contract for his own ego. Also, he didn't want to lose to Shawn. He agreed to put others over (Austin, Shamrock) thus sabatoging months of booking.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Jun 27, 2018 13:52:03 GMT -5
Rock jobbed to Bossman so we got a Big Show-Bossman WWF title match at a ppv. Rock wins.
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Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Jun 27, 2018 14:36:16 GMT -5
HBK was so unselfish he'd just forfeit his titles to save the other guy having a match and risking injury. What a pro!
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jun 27, 2018 14:42:19 GMT -5
But he didn't have creative control. He used his political position to put himself over for his own ego, not a legal clause granted to him by the company as in Bret's case. Bret didn't refuse to put anybody over. It wasn't about Shawn but about the location, hence why he volunteered to lose to Shawn the next night. If Triple H didn't want to lose in his hometown you can believe he wouldn't have, creative control clause or not. One has nothing to do with the other. Bret used his political position to get a clause put in his contract for his own ego. Also, he didn't want to lose to Shawn. He agreed to put others over (Austin, Shamrock) thus sabatoging months of booking. He actually agreed to lose to Shawn prior to. Then Shawn told him, to his face, "I'd never lose the belt to you", which caused a change of heart.
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jun 27, 2018 14:44:12 GMT -5
I'd say F.A.N.s favourite local man is in with a shout, you rarely hear anything bad said about Kane. Off the top of my head, he turned down ending the streak, as well as a World Title reign at least once (this is prior to him winning it in 2010)
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Post by edgestar on Jun 27, 2018 15:18:28 GMT -5
I'd say F.A.N.s favourite local man is in with a shout, you rarely hear anything bad said about Kane. That time he yelled SHOWWWWWWWW, was hilarious
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Jun 27, 2018 15:27:11 GMT -5
Not anything with refusing to job or anything but here's story of Rock being difficult although it's hilarious. Love that he talks in the third person in real life. www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MZMxYtqgI
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Post by Neo: "The One" who CLAPS on Jun 27, 2018 15:29:33 GMT -5
But he didn't have creative control. He us ed his political position to put himself over for his own ego, not a legal clause granted to him by the company as in Bret's case. Bret didn't refuse to put anybody over. It wasn't about Shawn but about the location, hence why he volunteered to lose to Shawn the next night. If Triple H didn't want to lose in his hometown you can believe he wouldn't have. One has nothing to do with the other. I'm well aware hence the IF. "Justified" or not, he didn't want to put him over that night which can be seen as selfish imo. To a guy who refused to ever return the favor for him and said, one month earlier, that he wasn’t jobbing anymore. Bret offered to drop the title to Austin, to Shamrock, etc. because he could’ve wrestled until the IYH event the next month. Hell, he offered to put Shawn over, just not that night. Even if you think that’s the most selfish thing, that’s the one moment of his career you could call selfish. And even if you think that, Bret is still far and away one of the most unselfish top guys in history.
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Facetious
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Post by Facetious on Jun 27, 2018 15:42:52 GMT -5
I'm well aware hence the IF. "Justified" or not, he didn't want to put him over that night which can be seen as selfish imo. To a guy who refused to ever return the favor for him and said, one month earlier, that he wasn’t jobbing anymore. Bret offered to drop the title to Austin, to Shamrock, etc. because he could’ve wrestled until the IYH event the next month. Hell, he offered to put Shawn over, just not that night. Even if you think that’s the most selfish thing, that’s the one moment of his career you could call selfish. A nd even if you think that, Bret is still far and away one of the most unselfish top guys in history. See, I find the bolded text fair. I just didn't care from the poster's "creative control so it's OKAY" post. I know Shawn was a gigantic, doped up dickhead, but I think being the bigger man could have gone a lot further tbh.
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