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Post by chronocross on Jun 28, 2018 15:35:32 GMT -5
Didn't Stephanie McMahon pin The Rock once? She did, it took a lot of interference as part of a handicap match but yeah it happened. Rock lost to Al Snow, Billy Gunn and the Big Bossman in 99 when the guy was over like crazy.
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riseofsetian1981
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jun 28, 2018 16:08:41 GMT -5
Bret, having been raised in the business, would most likely understand that etiquette in wrestling is that you always leave the territory "on your back." I wonder how Stu would've reacted if one of his wrestlers said, "Nah, I'm not giving the belt back tonight, Stu." What Vince did was backhanded, but was done ultimately to protect his livelihood. Bret was leaving, and was going to make a literal assload of cash. Bret was going to be okay. Vince, maybe not so much. You've made my point for me here. Vince, Shawn and Triple H went behind Bret's back and connived to get what they wanted. Vince even involving Triple H in the discussion is unprofessional since Bret's contract has nothing to do with him. Bret was upfront the entire time. He told them what he wanted, as was his right, and they went against his contract to punish him for what they considered to be a slight. Which is hilarious coming from Shawn and Triple H. Bret left with his dignity, having done right by wrestling. He spent his whole career working with lower card people, making people look good, selling for them. He never refused to job to anybody but simply wanted to leave the company on his own terms. If Vince didn't want Bret to have that right he shouldn't have put it in his 20-year contract in his desperation to keep him. And this is where I exit the conversation. I was under the impression that legally Bret couldn't leave with the belt anyways even if he wanted to.
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Post by Joe Neglia on Jun 28, 2018 17:24:18 GMT -5
On one hand, Rock was astoundingly generous when it came to losing a match. On the other hand, he wasn't so generous where it counted with the Rock, and that was his verbal abilities, where he absolutely destroyed some workers beyond repair without giving it a second thought.
Someone I will nominate for this role to a skewed degree would be Savage. When he was sent to Smokey Mountain for a show, he insisted on putting over the nobody loser he was facing, even after he was told he was going over. Then there's the DDP story where he pretty much made Page by telling the bookers he wanted to take the Diamond Cutter that night. If it worked for the story, Savage was willing to look like a chump in a heartbeat.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jun 28, 2018 17:45:18 GMT -5
I haven't' seen Flair mentioned
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jun 28, 2018 17:48:30 GMT -5
He has to be one of the least for sure. He'd wrestle guys way down the ladder from him, and he'd sell for them like they were killing him. I remember the matches he had with Eddie and Benoit in 2000, and he let both guys get all their shit in and just kick the crap out of him. I also remember him selling like crazy for Rhyno in 2001.
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Post by corndog on Jun 28, 2018 18:37:33 GMT -5
I haven't' seen Flair mentioned I was talking about WWE guys, while Flair had two WWF championship reigns, he was never really "the guy" in the company. But I would absolutely say he was never selfish as a top guy in the NWA/WCW, despite having a ridiculous number of title reigns.
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Post by Wrestling Curmudgeon on Jun 28, 2018 18:46:26 GMT -5
Today the Rock sent out a tweet replying to Shane "Hurricane" Helms tweet thanking the Rock for putting him over. But it made me think, I can't remember hearing any stories about the Rock refusing to put anyone over or even complaining about booking. Austin had the walk out, Bret had Montreal and stories about not wanting to put Diesel over, Hogan has countless stories and same with Michaels. Haven't heard the same stories about Sammartino, but he did "take his ball and go home" and outside of his run in the mid 80s never really put too many guys over and always got his win back, so what do you think FAN? Undertaker. The answer is Undertaker.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on Jun 29, 2018 2:47:05 GMT -5
Today the Rock sent out a tweet replying to Shane "Hurricane" Helms tweet thanking the Rock for putting him over. But it made me think, I can't remember hearing any stories about the Rock refusing to put anyone over or even complaining about booking. Austin had the walk out, Bret had Montreal and stories about not wanting to put Diesel over, Hogan has countless stories and same with Michaels. Haven't heard the same stories about Sammartino, but he did "take his ball and go home" and outside of his run in the mid 80s never really put too many guys over and always got his win back, so what do you think FAN? Undertaker. The answer is Undertaker. Undertaker was really bad from late 98 to late 01 with the DDP "feud" the perfect example of it. During that time he seemed to only ever lose to Austin, and he'd destroy everyone else.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jun 29, 2018 2:49:25 GMT -5
On one hand, Rock was astoundingly generous when it came to losing a match. On the other hand, he wasn't so generous where it counted with the Rock, and that was his verbal abilities, where he absolutely destroyed some workers beyond repair without giving it a second thought. This is actually a really good point. Sometimes, even if he'd lose the match he'd make them look like shit in promos.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Jun 29, 2018 7:24:04 GMT -5
Chris Jericho has to be up there including putting over John Cena and Fandango (did little in the long run), I even felt his feud with Dean Ambrose was to help undue the damage of facing Brock Lesnar. Jericho wasn't a top guy even when he was champion. If we're talking about actual top guys, you have a VERY small list to choose from. I think Foley is probably the least selfish top guy there was. I truly wish more guys approached wrestling in their later stages like he did, he really went the extra mile to make guys. Agree with you on Foley being selfless, but considering he destroyed his body with all those insane spots, and considering he could have used just his mic skills and storytelling to put guys over, I think you can make the arguement that he was too selfless. He also demolished his value in that respect very quickly. In his run from 2004-2007, Foley went from 'hell yeah, Foley's showing up, this should be cool!' to 'who's he jobbing to now?' I remember a five-way match open to any former WWE champion that had Cena, Lashley, Shawn, Mick and I think Randy Orton in it. I feel like it was in summer of '07. Anyway, the SECOND Foley was added to the match, every single person I knew, including on this forum, just immediately knew Foley was there to eat a pin so nobody else had to.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Jun 29, 2018 8:17:41 GMT -5
On one hand, Rock was astoundingly generous when it came to losing a match. On the other hand, he wasn't so generous where it counted with the Rock, and that was his verbal abilities, where he absolutely destroyed some workers beyond repair without giving it a second thought. This is actually a really good point. Sometimes, even if he'd lose the match he'd make them look like shit in promos. I will give him the benefit of doubt and asusme he just wanted to have the most exciting promo possible. I dont think he went with intention of burying people,he just didnt realize how harmful it can be
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 29, 2018 12:55:48 GMT -5
On one hand, Rock was astoundingly generous when it came to losing a match. On the other hand, he wasn't so generous where it counted with the Rock, and that was his verbal abilities, where he absolutely destroyed some workers beyond repair without giving it a second thought. This is actually a really good point. Sometimes, even if he'd lose the match he'd make them look like shit in promos. Yeah this actually had never occurred to me either but it’s true. I still think specifically naming Headbanger Mosh and Crash Holly as the guys he’d jokingly need to get through to win the 2000 Rumble was mean.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jun 29, 2018 13:07:10 GMT -5
On one hand, Rock was astoundingly generous when it came to losing a match. On the other hand, he wasn't so generous where it counted with the Rock, and that was his verbal abilities, where he absolutely destroyed some workers beyond repair without giving it a second thought. This is actually a really good point. Sometimes, even if he'd lose the match he'd make them look like shit in promos. I know it's popular, but the "God spoke to Billy'" promo followed by The Rock beating him at Summerslam with relative ease straight murdered any shot Billy Gunn had at being a credible main event/upper midcard guy. I know it's easy to say in hindsight "Well, it's Billy Gunn and he was never gonna be that guy", but the point is that they had him win KOTR and had some kind of plan for him. His feud with the Rock killed it dead instantly
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Post by sunnytaker on Jun 29, 2018 14:58:15 GMT -5
gotta go with Vacant, sure he was always in the title picture and seems to get a run with about half the belts every year. but he's always willing to put the next man up and drop the title right away. I think his longest reign for anything was a couple of months (one of the cena-orton-vacant feuds where neither cena nor orton could get the decisive win leaving vacant to continue with the title?). never hear any complaints about him backstage either
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Josh Spicer
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Post by Josh Spicer on Jun 29, 2018 15:42:18 GMT -5
gotta go with Vacant, sure he was always in the title picture and seems to get a run with about half the belts every year. but he's always willing to put the next man up and drop the title right away. I think his longest reign for anything was a couple of months (one of the cena-orton-vacant feuds where neither cena nor orton could get the decisive win leaving vacant to continue with the title?). never hear any complaints about him backstage either His biggest run was in TNA, but he's had plenty of runs in WWE, more so with the World Heavyweight Title than anything els.e His time in WCW though? Oofta.
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spagett
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Post by spagett on Jun 29, 2018 17:00:46 GMT -5
This is actually a really good point. Sometimes, even if he'd lose the match he'd make them look like shit in promos. I know it's popular, but the "God spoke to Billy'" promo followed by The Rock beating him at Summerslam with relative ease straight murdered any shot Billy Gunn had at being a credible main event/upper midcard guy. I know it's easy to say in hindsight "Well, it's Billy Gunn and he was never gonna be that guy", but the point is that they had him win KOTR and had some kind of plan for him. His feud with the Rock killed it dead instantly The night after winning the KOTR Billy Gunn jobbed to Bradshaw. I don't think they ever really intended to push him into the main event.
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Post by evilone on Jun 29, 2018 17:19:09 GMT -5
Rock was never about the matches, Rock was always about the stick and stick was holy grail for him. You could see it in his eyes that he took the talk for real. He was burying people left and right and he was enjoying it. In that perspective he never put anyone over. There were few instances where others have outtalked him cause they got prepared properly but that's about it. Combine all of that with his unmemorable matches and the answer should be: no not really
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 29, 2018 17:47:33 GMT -5
Rock "burying" people on the mic says more about the opponents calibre than it does the Rock.
Jericho, for example, saw debuting amongst the Rock's promo as about the highest honour possible for a first timer in WWE. Rock bad-mouth him as he did anyone, but Jericho rolled with the punches and stood his ground, and was better for it.
A lesser performer would have felt "buried" and done.
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Post by robferatu on Jun 30, 2018 0:56:07 GMT -5
You're joking, right? One of the biggest moments in professional wrestling history concerns Bret's refusal to put another guy over. Nope. He had creative control in his contract and his refusal was that he didn't want to lose in Canada, as was his right in his contract. He'd put Shawn over before and he would have done it again. The issue was Vince fearing Bret would take the title to WCW, based on nothing, and notorious shit-stirrers Shawn and Triple H getting his ear. Vince is in the wrong, not Bret. Bret's entire career was making others look good and being a professional. I give Hart a pass on the whole Montreal thing if only because it's been reported so many times Dave Meltzer, Bruce Prichard and etc. that he initially said he'd put Michaels over, only for Shawn to retort with "Thank you, Bret! But I can't say I'd do the same to you." That in my opinion, gave Bret Hart every justifiable reason not to want to put over the Heartbreak Kid. However, what sours me on Hart being the least selfish guy is the numerous reports about his constant need to look strong and beat everyone when he was champion. Kevin Nash has the infamous comment about his and Hart's "Steel Cage" Match at In Your House, where to add a little something extra to his and the Undertaker's match at "Wrestlemania" they wanted to make it appear like Diesel was on the verge of winning the championship after hitting the Hitman with a power bomb, and then do the Undertaker coming thru the ring spot. Also, on an episode of "Something to Wrestle," Prichard touched on how adamant about how Bret was about going over and beating everyone. Personally, considering the latter years, I'd have to the nod to John Cena as the most unselfish "top guy," his role in recent years has more of less been to put over other guys, from AJ Styles to Kevin Steen, and even during his reigns of terror he did put over the likes of Rob Van Dam, Randy Orton, Edge and Daniel Bryan. So, while he may have held a few talents down, he's seemingly willingly put over more than he hasn't.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jun 30, 2018 3:51:04 GMT -5
Thinking about it, would any other top guys other than Orton have jobbed clean for the WWE title, more than once, to Miz and Jinder Mahal, largely seen as jokes?
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