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Post by The Captain on Feb 11, 2019 18:24:50 GMT -5
Yeah, the Dark Side already won. Kylo Ren's only struggle with that is with stamping out the last remnants of the Light Side within him and he handles that with killing his own father in cold blood. There was a brief flicker when he was in his TIE Fighter and he didn't fire on the bridge where his mother was, but that was it. Not even Vader consciously kills any of his own family like Kylo Ren killed Han. Rey thinks she can pull with Kylo Ren what Luke did with Vader, and maybe when Ren kills Snoke she thinks that's his moment of redemption. And so does the audience. Then Kylo reveals the whole thing was a power grab and a giant recruitment pitch for Rey to basically remake the Sith in everything but name with her as his apprentice. Still hoping for Anakin's Force Ghost to make an appearance in Episode IX saying something along the lines of "That boy ain't right" about his grandson.
The moment he offs Snoke is his "He's starting to believe" moment. The last of his lingering doubts that he can live up to Vader's legacy are gone, and now he's The Man. The thing is, just like Rey he knows f*** all about anything, and also like Rey he is getting by on raw power alone. Honestly, it's kinda begging for an Anakin Force ghost appearance. You can tell how much he just enjoyed shutting Hux up with a Force Choke. Like, the only reason he put up with his backtalking him was because of Snoke. Once he was Supreme Leader, he could do whatever he wanted with his subordinates. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 11, 2019 18:41:31 GMT -5
The moment he offs Snoke is his "He's starting to believe" moment. The last of his lingering doubts that he can live up to Vader's legacy are gone, and now he's The Man. The thing is, just like Rey he knows f*** all about anything, and also like Rey he is getting by on raw power alone. Honestly, it's kinda begging for an Anakin Force ghost appearance. You can tell how much he just enjoyed shutting Hux up with a Force Choke. Like, the only reason he put up with his backtalking him was because of Snoke. Once he was Supreme Leader, he could do whatever he wanted with his subordinates. Well, he nailed that part of Vader's act, at least! I do like the thought of this juggernaut of a fleet being led by an utter psychopath barely in control of himself. While quick to anger, Vader was always very controlled, and Palpatine cunning and calculating. It's something fresh that Star Wars definitely needed. |
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Post by Mr PONYMANIA Mr Jenzie on Feb 11, 2019 19:38:01 GMT -5
but who's the MASTER and who's the APPRENTICE in the armatige-ben dynamic ..... dat last shot of hux at the end of TLJ  |
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Post by The Captain on Feb 11, 2019 20:20:10 GMT -5
You can tell how much he just enjoyed shutting Hux up with a Force Choke. Like, the only reason he put up with his backtalking him was because of Snoke. Once he was Supreme Leader, he could do whatever he wanted with his subordinates. Well, he nailed that part of Vader's act, at least! I do like the thought of this juggernaut of a fleet being led by an utter psychopath barely in control of himself. While quick to anger, Vader was always very controlled, and Palpatine cunning and calculating. It's something fresh that Star Wars definitely needed. Going back to the Legends EU, there's a lot of similarities between Darth Caedus and Kylo Ren. Wouldn't be surprised if there was some inspiration take for the canon evil son of Leia and Han from the legends evil son of Leia and Han. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 12, 2019 0:07:52 GMT -5
If he's doomed to be bad and never stood a chance of being anything else, then there was no point in wasting so much screentime on his supposed internal conflict. His internal conflict, as I've mentioned, mirrors Luke's about measuring up. Ben wants so hard to be Vader, believes Vader needs to be avenged, but initially lacks the belief that he can do it. Snoke even mocks him for being a Vader wannabe. Rey believes his conflict is the Light and Dark Side battling for his soul, but it turns out she's wrong because she's a dumbass kid who makes assumptions about something she knows the square root of Jack shit about. Ben was joint second in command with a military officer of the new empire, was skilled with the Force, wore black, had a mask, used a red lightsabre, killed people in cold blood, and murdered a family member. He basically succeeded in becoming Vader. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 12, 2019 1:48:57 GMT -5
His internal conflict, as I've mentioned, mirrors Luke's about measuring up. Ben wants so hard to be Vader, believes Vader needs to be avenged, but initially lacks the belief that he can do it. Snoke even mocks him for being a Vader wannabe. Rey believes his conflict is the Light and Dark Side battling for his soul, but it turns out she's wrong because she's a dumbass kid who makes assumptions about something she knows the square root of Jack shit about. Ben was joint second in command with a military officer of the new empire, was skilled with the Force, wore black, had a mask, used a red lightsabre, killed people in cold blood, and murdered a family member. He basically succeeded in becoming Vader. Putting the achievements of another on such a high pedestal that nothing you ever achieve yourself is ever quite good enough in your own eyes is not only a well-worn trope in fiction but incredibly common in real life as well. Doesn't matter if he's second in command of the new Empire, because the old Empire controlled the galaxy and his does not. Doesn't matter if he has the trappings of Vader and killed people, because Vader did it better. Snoke is right, he's just a Vader fanboy with an inferiority complex. |
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Post by Alexander The So-so on Feb 12, 2019 10:46:51 GMT -5
If he's doomed to be bad and never stood a chance of being anything else, then there was no point in wasting so much screentime on his supposed internal conflict. His internal conflict, as I've mentioned, mirrors Luke's about measuring up. Ben wants so hard to be Vader, believes Vader needs to be avenged, but initially lacks the belief that he can do it. Snoke even mocks him for being a Vader wannabe. Rey believes his conflict is the Light and Dark Side battling for his soul, but it turns out she's wrong because she's a dumbass kid who makes assumptions about something she knows the square root of Jack shit about. So that’s where we are, then. In the OT, we had the young, naive protagonist insist there was good in Darth Vader, his older mentor tell him no, he was lost...only for it to turn out that the protagonist was right and his closed-minded elders were wrong, and that he had seen something no one else saw. In the ST, we have the same set up...except in this case, no, the first impression was right, and there was no hope, and you’ve got to just kill people before they do anything. And that’s apparently what we, as a society, want, considering these movies’ popularity. Look, I won’t derail this thread any further, or waste my time arguing with you any further. Clearly, you like the film and think criticisms of it are just coming from willfully ignorant fanboys who “didn’t get the story they wanted.” Or that I just don’t like bleak and cynical things; trust me, I can handle bleak and cynical. My favorite TV show is Bojack Horseman, for crying out loud. I will just ask that maybe, maybe you consider the following food for thought: some people, including me, have gone through a history of mental illness, in my case depression, which involved going through bad phases where we had violent thoughts, engaged in destructive or self-destructive behavior, fell into some malevolent sociopolitical thought patterns, and were constantly wrestling with inner demons. That this happened even though I, too, had nothing necessarily wrong with my family life and upbringing. And the one thing that kept us going was the hope that we were good people deep down, had the potential to be better, that we would get in a better place if given a chance to contribute to society, make amends for our past transgressions, and be forgiven for them. And that even though some of us, like me, do get better eventually, we are not naive of the fact that some people don’t, and that when that happens, it is a tragic situation. But even though we are aware that such things happen, we still hold onto hopeful messages in the hope of maximizing the chances that people in such positions don’t end up like that. So maybe, just maybe it’s rather alarming to see a film which, in a major reversal from what’s been said before, so glibly rejects a redemptive message and tells us that the born-troubled antagonist who was wrestling with inner demons from birth was a hopeless mess who was better off dead before he hurt society any further, and that trying to hold out hope for him was a waste of time. That maybe some people who might be in a similar position will look at that and think, “maybe they’re right, maybe people like me are hopeless, dangerous monsters, and I should just commit suicide before I burden the world with my existence any further.” And that instead of treating such an outcome with weight, seriousness, and thoughtfulness, such an outcome falls by the wayside, and we’re told to just buy the merchandise, enjoy the theme park rides, and shut up. And the fact that such a message seems very popular, without its implications being thought of, might raise some societal red flags in people. |
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 12, 2019 11:12:03 GMT -5
Ben was joint second in command with a military officer of the new empire, was skilled with the Force, wore black, had a mask, used a red lightsabre, killed people in cold blood, and murdered a family member. He basically succeeded in becoming Vader. Putting the achievements of another on such a high pedestal that nothing you ever achieve yourself is ever quite good enough in your own eyes is not only a well-worn trope in fiction but incredibly common in real life as well. Doesn't matter if he's second in command of the new Empire, because the old Empire controlled the galaxy and his does not. Doesn't matter if he has the trappings of Vader and killed people, because Vader did it better. Snoke is right, he's just a Vader fanboy with an inferiority complex. As I said, he had already accomplished what Vader did, and the First Order had virtually obliterated the Republic, so was almost certainly in control of the galaxy. Nothing Snoke said made any logical sense. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 12, 2019 20:13:44 GMT -5
Clearly, you like the film and think criticisms of it are just coming from willfully ignorant fanboys who “didn’t get the story they wanted.” Or that I just don’t like bleak and cynical things; trust me, I can handle bleak and cynical. My favorite TV show is Bojack Horseman, for crying out loud. No, I've made it abundantly clear that I do not blanket dismiss all criticism of the movie. You have put far more thought into your criticisms than the types of people who are "fanboys who didn't get the story they wanted." Go back a few pages and you'll see that I say it has some big flaws. Some of the points you've raised do address some of those flaws, and I haven't contested them. At other points I feel you're either dismissing or being blind to clear narrative directions the movie takes. All fair. As I said in a few posts back, the movie does have an issue with its cynicism and bleakness, and I question whether the filmmakers thought about the consequences of the story they created. Whether JJ had a different plan and Johnson tore it up or whether it was the plan all along, overseen by Kennedy, is open to debate. I'll leave it at that, as you're right, we don't need to derail the thread any further. |
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Post by The Captain on Feb 13, 2019 1:44:39 GMT -5
I feel like with TLJ there were two competing narrative directions they had for the film and instead of choosing one or the other, they went with both. Only they weren't exactly compatible with each other.
I liked the movie, but there are a lot of valid, legitimate criticisms for it and the sequel trilogy so far. Many of which I agree with, like the dire lack of in-film world building in order to sell books or comics or games or whathaveyou. And it's not like you'd have to bog things down in over-explanations like the prequels did. Just some lines here and there.
But I also think the way Episode IX wraps things up will potentially help Episode VIII settle into its place in the mythos. Because I think it's a middle part of a trilogy that really needs the context of the conclusion to be more enjoyable. Of course, if Episode IX sucks, it could retroactively hurt the previous two movies.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 13, 2019 2:25:20 GMT -5
But I also think the way Episode IX wraps things up will potentially help Episode VIII settle into its place in the mythos. Because I think it's a middle part of a trilogy that really needs the context of the conclusion to be more enjoyable. Of course, if Episode IX sucks, it could retroactively hurt the previous two movies. According to the rumour mill, JJ was so stung over the criticism that Force Awakens played things far too safe that he's decided to make Episode IX even more divisive than Last Jedi. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}There's also apparently a scene where C-3PO wears Chewie's bandolier and wields Rey's staff, which sounds all kinds of Attack of the Clones-level bad comedy. |
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Feb 13, 2019 7:32:26 GMT -5
But I also think the way Episode IX wraps things up will potentially help Episode VIII settle into its place in the mythos. Because I think it's a middle part of a trilogy that really needs the context of the conclusion to be more enjoyable. Of course, if Episode IX sucks, it could retroactively hurt the previous two movies. According to the rumour mill, JJ was so stung over the criticism that Force Awakens played things far too safe that he's decided to make Episode IX even more divisive than Last Jedi. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}There's also apparently a scene where C-3PO wears Chewie's bandolier and wields Rey's staff, which sounds all kinds of Attack of the Clones-level bad comedy. {Spoiler} My initial thought on that is it's a "no weapons and that includes your droid" scenario where C3PO stands outside holding everything looking like a supercommando |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 13, 2019 8:29:48 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}There's also apparently a scene where C-3PO wears Chewie's bandolier and wields Rey's staff, which sounds all kinds of Attack of the Clones-level bad comedy. {Spoiler}Or he's just holding those things because Rey and Chewie get it on. |
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Post by Fade on Feb 13, 2019 13:56:47 GMT -5
Well, rumors are also saying a lot of the plot will involve chasing a Macguffin and that it’s considered “controversial”.. How hilarious would it be if JJ was in such a “f***-it” mode, he brought back {Spoiler}{Spoiler}midichlorians |
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Post by The Captain on Feb 13, 2019 14:11:21 GMT -5
I don't tend to believe the rumors about these sorts of things as Star Wars in particular is subject to a lot of outright made-up stuff posing as rumors.  |
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Post by Fade on Feb 13, 2019 14:45:33 GMT -5
I don't tend to believe the rumors about these sorts of things as Star Wars in particular is subject to a lot of outright made-up stuff posing as rumors. The {Spoiler}midichlorians bit is mainly just fans circlejerking but the Macguffin rumor is getting a lot of traction in the same places that called some things that synced up with the recent pic leak. |
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 15, 2019 2:03:10 GMT -5
Or teaser, maybe?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 10:33:59 GMT -5
Toy Fair is this weekend (Feb 16th-19th) ........ and today it was announced that Force Friday is "Triple Force Friday" (Episode IX, Jedi: Fallen Order video game, and The Mandalorian merch all hits the same day in October). Which means all that merch should be revealed this weekend.
I would think they'd have the title of the movie out there to coincide with all this....
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Feb 15, 2019 16:10:22 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 16:18:26 GMT -5
I'm rather curious to see more detail on the movie just because as it stands I just... Really don't see any reason to bother seeing it.
I didn't even mind Last Jedi - it's not great, or really even especially good, but I thought it was an acceptable way to kill a few hours watching some dumb action. Just, like... Pretty much every complication in the story or notable subplot was thrown aside as an afterthought and by the end the only actual hook it left for the finale is, "Come see Rey and Kylo Ren fight for the third movie in a row!" It just did nothing to make me actually want to see the payoff.
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