Indie Companies that Tried to Get Too Big Too Soon

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

I was thinking of thread ideas that could be the longest (w)rest subject ever. I came up with two and will post the second shortly.

For this thread please don't just name the company, but try to explain how they tried for too much too soon.

I think this can apply to essentially any company ever including WWE, but I'll just name one for now. MECW.

Joe Neglia posted in an old thread PWInsider's report about the money issues they had. So here it is:

Those that knew him, well, they weren't shocked. Former Main Event Championship Wrestling promoter John Collins, who came into the business with huge grandiose claims of running several territories at once only to quickly disappear, is currently serving a 71 month federal prison sentence as part of a plea bargain agreement over charges of violating the terms of an asset freeze order entered against his Canadian partner in the Main Event Championship Wrestling project, Gary Stroud. Collins was also accused of aiding and abetting Stroud in violating the order. Collins was in possession of $187,000 given to him by Stroud, who had been accused with fleecing over 2,000 investors worldwide of over $1 million since 1998 in an Internet scheme. Stroud, operating under several fictitious businesses, used Internet websites and e-mail to hawk seven alleged investments, including so-called "Morgenthau Gold Bond Certificates," foreign gold-mining projects, and "prime-bank" trading programs, promising investors extraordinary returns with little or no risk. It turned out he had paid no returns to any investors. Stroud diverted $200,000 to Collins for the MECW project before having a freeze put on his assets during the course of a Securities and Exchange Commission investigation. After Stroud's assets were freezed, Collins still accepted $162,000 in wire transfers from Stroud and spent the funds. Collins also refused to hand over $25,000 worth of Stroud's property to the receiver involved in the case despite repeated demands. Collins then faxed a bogus promissory note to the receiver involved in the case, allegedly signed by a third-party agreeing to pay the money due under the contempt order. When Collins continued to refused to cooperate with the investigators, the judge in the Stroud case had him jailed for civil contempt in November 2002. At the same time, the FBI began putting together a criminal case on Collins, which led to him making a plea bargain agreement for the jail time. Collins was also accused to creating another scheme which raised an additional $100,000, although it is not known if that was for MECW or another project unrelated to wrestling.

When Collins is released from prison, he will undergo three years of supervised release and must pay back $290,000. In February 2003, Stroud was ordered by a federal judge in Oklahoma to pay back $1,044,879 as well as pay $956,379 in civil penalties. Collins' Main Event Championship Wrestling burst into the summer of 2001 with huge claims of national TV expansions and running different territories at the same time. With Sandman as the point person for many of the wrestlers, the promotion held a free show at the ECW Arena in Philadelphia, PA on 8/11/01. They drew a huge full house based on the fact that they were using mostly ECW names in an ECW stronghold, with the show featuring names Sandman, Mike Rotunda, Sabu, Tod Gordon, Joel Gertner, New Jack, Devito, Chris Chetti, Danny Doring, Joey Matthews, Christian York, Steve Corino, Buff Bagwell, Jack Victory, Curt Hennig, Chris Harris, Julio Dinero, Chris Hamrick, Public Enemy, The Full Blooded Italians, Blue Meanie, Dawn Marie, Jasmin St. Clair, Simon Diamond, Crowbar, Billy Reil, Roadkill, Gary Wolfe, Francine, Lou E. Dangerously and Bill Alfonso. Barry Windham was also at the show but didn't wrestle. Sabu defeated Sandman in a ladder match main event. MECW announced a return for September but the show ended up canceled, blaming 9/11 and never ran again in Philadelphia. They did run smaller scale shows, but there were problems with airline tickets (which at the time, Collins publicly tried to blame on Paul Heyman, of all people) and with paying talent. The promotion and Collins soon dissipated.

[Stone Coke Miami Watson 🥃]

TNA under Dixie Carter...instead of organically growing, they spent money and listened to the wrong people to try to get big enough to compete with the WWE.

And as we all know, every time that happened it blew up on them in spectacular fashion.

[The Dark Order Inferno]

TNA are the embodiment of this. 'If you build it, they will come' was the mindset behind the company, and only now are they beginning to realise that was a mistake. They spent big on talent, got big names in management and none of them knew a thing about how to actually PROMOTE the promotion, they didn't advertise the shows and work to build a base anywhere, they just kept signing people, and when that didn't work, they signed more. The company became a heap of people fighting while trying to drain some more blood from a bloated corpse.

[Deleted]

This is the story of my local indy Wrestlecenter. It was a WILD two years, where Christopher Daniels was out top champ for most of it. He was wrestling guys like AJ Styles (while he was IWGP champ), Samoa Joe, Lance Storm. We had guys like Mick Foley come in for guest shots. Bobby Roode. The whole mess. AMAZING shows, but I'm from one of the lowest wealth areas in Canada in a city with a population of about 500,000 with not all of them being wrestling fans. They had an awesome time but they flamed out hard. Didn't help that they took a four month break every winter.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

That’s why pwg has done everything it can to not expand, because they know most indies die doing that.

[Tea & Crumpets]

Sept 13, 2018 8:39:08 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

TNA are the embodiment of this. 'If you build it, they will come' was the mindset behind the company, and only now are they beginning to realise that was a mistake. They spent big on talent, got big names in management and none of them knew a thing about how to actually PROMOTE the promotion, they didn't advertise the shows and work to build a base anywhere, they just kept signing people, and when that didn't work, they signed more. The company became a heap of people fighting while trying to drain some more blood from a bloated corpse.

The stupid thing is TNA didn't even need outside talent. They had a ridiculously stacked roster of completely homegrown guys who, if they'd had a damn clue about promoting, could have made into big names that would have been fresh faces with zero TV age. They should have gone after the wrestling fans who quit when WCW & ECW died, rather than after the WWE fans who were...well. Still watching WWE.

Imagine if the TNA product from 03-08 had had guys with the Bucks & Cody's ability to promote behind it. TNA didn't need more guys they just needed to invest in a decent marketing team, and bookers who were going to book the talent they had rather than rehash WCW's failures and WWE's rejects.

[wrestlingrecap]

FWE.

[DASH 243✅]

Paragon pro wrestling

[WoodStoner1]

The GWF. Full stop. The first months they put everything into it, getting well-known talent not signed with WWF or WCW. Developing new talent, from Dallas and elsewhere. The money just wasn't there, and it fell apart by mid-1992.

[KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!!]

Sept 14, 2018 9:57:34 GMT -5 WoodStoner1 said:

The GWF. Full stop. The first months they put everything into it, getting well-known talent not signed with WWF or WCW. Developing new talent, from Dallas and elsewhere. The money just wasn't there, and it fell apart by mid-1992.

Haha I read this as GFW, thinking of Jeff Jarrett’s GFW. If you swap out a few words it could easily apply.

[I'm Team Bayley and Indi]

1pw here in the UK, while it was good for the fan, there's shows where often stacked with international talent was no surprise when it all came crashing down (and it hurt inside).

One show I attended in 2006 included AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Steve Corino, The Blue Meanie, Ebbesen, Chris Hero, Sterling James Keenan, Tracy Smothers, Chris Hamrick, Takashi Sugiura and Yoshinobu Kanemaru, which all would have varying degrees of fee would have cost a lot to bring them in, that's not including the British wrestlers on top of that like Doug Williams.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

UWF probably could have been something had Herb Abrams not snorted all his assets.

[Joe Neglia]

That WWA company that popped up after WCW. Did some good business in Australia, mostly because Australia was incredibly thirsty for wrestling at the time. Then they tried to move straight into a big PPV in...Vegas, I think? And that show was an absolute disaster and we never heard from WWA again.

[chazraps]

Sept 13, 2018 12:53:32 GMT -5 wrestlingrecap said:

FWE.

Did it?

[Deleted]

Does Wrestlecircus count?

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

Sept 13, 2018 12:09:53 GMT -5 Tea & Crumpets said:

Sept 13, 2018 8:39:08 GMT -5 The Dark Order Inferno said:

TNA are the embodiment of this. 'If you build it, they will come' was the mindset behind the company, and only now are they beginning to realise that was a mistake. They spent big on talent, got big names in management and none of them knew a thing about how to actually PROMOTE the promotion, they didn't advertise the shows and work to build a base anywhere, they just kept signing people, and when that didn't work, they signed more. The company became a heap of people fighting while trying to drain some more blood from a bloated corpse.

The stupid thing is TNA didn't even need outside talent. They had a ridiculously stacked roster of completely homegrown guys who, if they'd had a damn clue about promoting, could have made into big names that would have been fresh faces with zero TV age. They should have gone after the wrestling fans who quit when WCW & ECW died, rather than after the WWE fans who were...well. Still watching WWE.

Imagine if the TNA product from 03-08 had had guys with the Bucks & Cody's ability to promote behind it. TNA didn't need more guys they just needed to invest in a decent marketing team, and bookers who were going to book the talent they had rather than rehash WCW's failures and WWE's rejects.

So much I agree on, more so the about Mid 06 to 08 roster. They easily had the best roster one company could have but nobody knew how to Advertise or want to put money into it. Dixie was supposed to went into school for marketing so it blows my mind how a company ran by a marketing major could be the worst at that. The thing is a couple big names was fine when they had value as competitors. If they only signed Sting, Angle, Christian, and the Dudleyz, they would been fine and could grown huge with the good marketing and advertising plan. I look back on how TNA was late 09 before Hogan came in. TNA was lighting it up product wise and than Hogan and co taking them several steps backwards. If the money they spend on Hogan and co, and saved on so many of the big names that added nothing and most of the time phoned it in and put that to Advertising and dumped Russo a lot sooner. They could been big.

I always said, there is no time period of being big in wrestling as a company. WWE went from almost out of business in 97 to being worth a Billion in 00. Not very long time period but how did he get there? This day and age you can be big again if you have a good plan on how you going to get there. Cody and the Bucks had an idea and made a plan for it and it worked for one event. Now a good plan could make a 10,000 event happen monthly and weekly but you have to have money and that what the issues been for everyone outside of TNA. They wanted to be big fast but didn't have money ready to make that jump.

You look at ROH who started as a small indies company but brought in the best of the best in the indies and slowly grew it and they never had a ton of money to start with and Sinclair as an owner if they really wanted it could likely get a big tv deal and if they went touring weekly for TV. They could make it work, why TNA didn't work is none of those shows advertised. If ROH did it, they would sell out I bet.

[Alice Syndrome]

Sept 14, 2018 13:38:46 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

That WWA company that popped up after WCW. Did some good business in Australia, mostly because Australia was incredibly thirsty for wrestling at the time. Then they tried to move straight into a big PPV in...Vegas, I think? And that show was an absolute disaster and we never heard from WWA again.

Did pretty good over here for a few years too, mostly because I don't think anyone even knew that wrestling was happening in the UK outside the occasional WWE tour. I mean I only found out there was still UK wrestling when we got a channel full of Indy stuff for a few years and LDN and FWA were on it. Although I think their reach may have been hampered by the fact they headed their first tour with Jeff Jarrett vs freaking Road Dogg

[Final Countdown Jones]

Sept 14, 2018 12:15:58 GMT -5 KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! said:

Sept 14, 2018 9:57:34 GMT -5 WoodStoner1 said:

The GWF. Full stop. The first months they put everything into it, getting well-known talent not signed with WWF or WCW. Developing new talent, from Dallas and elsewhere. The money just wasn't there, and it fell apart by mid-1992.

Haha I read this as GFW, thinking of Jeff Jarrett’s GFW. If you swap out a few words it could easily apply.

GFW absolutely did try to get too big too soon; Jeff got lucky with TNA in a lot of respects, because any wrestling company whose main goal and purpose is television is going to be a f***ing nightmare time, as we've seen time and again by upstarts gunning for TV and folding when they don't get it. GFW could have been something decent had he gone back to the drawing board and tried to start things more locally, look into web shows and stuff... Hell, if he had waited a couple years like that, he could have hopped onto twitch.tv like promotions are doing, and been able to get some eyes on himself through there. Instead, he blew all of his money on a taped season of television, flying in a bunch of guys and blowing money in the process, all for something that ended up being picked up by nobody and which only saw the light of day again during the brief time he went crawling back to TNA, and now he's suing them over that footage. Jeff managed to talk his way onto "co-promoting" cards to no end or notoriety, and its lasting impact is laughing at him for a gold bar pyramid scheme. Horrible look all over. GFW absolutely counts.

[Can you afford to pay me, Gah]

Sept 14, 2018 14:47:53 GMT -5 Alice Syndrome said:

Sept 14, 2018 13:38:46 GMT -5 Joe Neglia said:

That WWA company that popped up after WCW. Did some good business in Australia, mostly because Australia was incredibly thirsty for wrestling at the time. Then they tried to move straight into a big PPV in...Vegas, I think? And that show was an absolute disaster and we never heard from WWA again.

Did pretty good over here for a few years too, mostly because I don't think anyone even knew that wrestling was happening in the UK outside the occasional WWE tour. I mean I only found out there was still UK wrestling when we got a channel full of Indy stuff for a few years and LDN and FWA were on it. Although I think their reach may have been hampered by the fact they headed their first tour with Jeff Jarrett vs freaking Road Dogg

The second tour had more store power because they had Sting (First return to wrestling since WCW before his first brief run in TNA.) Also Luger was on it.


Adding the the list XWF That came late 01 and did tappings for a TV show to sell to a network. Feel apart fast when Hogan and Henning went to the WWE.

A couple other I thought off.

NWE (I think it was called) The company that had the Warrior's last match in Spain. They seemed to draw very well and I heard a lot of them than the after the Warrior did his dead. They seemed to vanished.

WWWA I remember seeing this company but was more a BSer than anything. This was like 05/06ish they first claimed to signed Steiner and others. Then said they had a MAJOR TV deal which never said what the network was. Then I read the first show that had a pic from it of Jim Duggan with a US title looked like the WCW one in some high school gym saying he was the new US champion and the first champion crowned in the WWWA. Nothing happened after that really and I don't think Steiner ever really showed up.

Can we count the new AWA before it got closed by legal reasons? All I remember at one time Steve Corino had the belt. Than went away, Evan Karigous of all people had the belt and anybody who made ONE appearance was a roster member even if they signed else where.

[Chainsaw]

Sept 14, 2018 14:04:57 GMT -5 @jr1 said:

Does Wrestlecircus count?

Sadly, it seems that this will be the case, and I'm not all that sure what could have been the cause. It could have been money issues, considering the indy talent they were bringing in for every show, but it legit seems like it was because Austin is just not a wrestling city. They had so many problems booking regular venues that it seems to have killed their ability to run shows in the city. The saddest part is, I swear they were the ones who started the trend of wrestling companies flocking to Twitch to run their shows and grow their fanbase, and they couldn't even grow past running out of Austin.