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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 5, 2019 13:02:32 GMT -5
Watched WK last night, NYD this morning, so here are my two cents:
-For those of you who only watch WK, I can't encourage you enough to take the dive and just sign up on NJPW World. WK's tend to be great, but I'd argue that Dominion is often an even better show (same way SummerSlam is often better than Wrestlemania) and the three-night G1 Final is pretty much the best weekend in wrestling any single promotion provides. Plus, if you're wondering about the hows, whys, and bits of context to explain some of the booking decisions and character beats, well, that's how you'll know. NJPW, like most puro, is really good about rewarding long time and regular viewers; there are often call backs to things that happened earlier, there's often a rewarding payoff to watching characters grow and evolve over time, it ust makes for a more complete viewing experience where you're not only worried about pure match quality because there can be a bit more appreciation for some of the stories and character arcs.
-I watched both shows while listening to New Legacy's commentary, and yes, a cat's feet should be referred to as "toe beans".
-I get the feeling like some of the pre-show guys are going to use being relegated to that spot as motivation in 2019. Already seemed like Beretta and Goto were moving with an extra spring in their step, wanting to do what they could to keep that from happening again.
-Ospreay and Ibushi surprised me, and I'm here for vicious Will. Goto stabilized the title the past couple of years, but it's time for it to really embrace its openweight status, and Ospreay can do that. Still, I really thought Ibushi would retain, so I was genuinely surprised.
-Jr. Tag match was the first to feel a bit too short; if there were any complaints to be had on this show, it's that a couple of the matches could've used an extra 5 or so minutes, and I thought this was one of them (guessing they wanted things to move along for TV Asashi and/or Axs). Still, it was 100% clear they wanted to put Shingo over as a monster, and I'm more than ready for him to tear shit up, Shingo rules.
-I genuinely got hyped for BoSJ being at Ryogoku; it felt a bit disappointing for the great Hiromu vs. Ishimori final to be in Korakuen in front of a smaller crowd, so with G1 getting Budokan again this is pretty sweet.
-British title match was great, but what else would it be? Heel Suzuki-mentored Sabre is still aces, and Ishii can do no wrong.
-Heavy tag match had a bit more going for it than it initially seemed, and I think the Bucks helped that by helping to connect and move things along in the match. Not exactly a match of the night or anything, but it did its job. Like I said in my prediction, I'm hopeful that both men will stay healthy now and EVIL/SANADA will get the longer, more interesting reign we couldn't get in early 2018.
-US Title match did its job of putting Juice over definitively, but I wonder how much Cody's leg is still screwed up. If it wasn't going to be a really great match, then I'm glad it at least served its story purpose.
-My one disappointment of the card was the Jr. title match. It was good, absolutely, but I was expecting more, and again this was a match that really could've used five more minutes. Both guys are so great and could've put something more special together, I think.
-I predicted White would win, but the return of vintage Okada had me rethinking everything. I stopped cooking dinner and stood there shocked when White hit the Bladrunner and won clean. New era, indeed. I don't get how anybody could not be on the Jay White hype train, outside of the kind of flat IC title match with Tanahashi last January the guy has been money in just about every conceivable way ever since.
-I need to rewatch Naito/Jericho since I was distracted during it while making dinner, but what I did see impressed me, really good character work and storytelling that helped a match where the conclusion felt pretty predictable going in. Jericho dragging NJPW's top talents into these super violent hardcore matches is a perfectly good use for him.
-Love loved LOVED the main event, can't say enough good things about it. Great story, great layout, great working, etc. Kenny represented the new way of explosive offense and dominated the early part of the match, while Tana represented the old school fighting spirit and couldn't be held down, thus allowing his comeback. Both men were spot-on, super satisfying story told. Also marked out for Kenny's theme song because Undertale's soundtrack is that great, but I think it was just for a special occasion, which is fine.
-With New Years Dash: glad to see Yujiro and Chase come home, RP3K still have something cooking giving their win, AWESOME 6 man between CHAOS and the regular army team (though KUSHIDA taking the pin has me afraid he's really leaving, PLEASE DON'T GO KUSHI, CHALLENGE FOR THE NEVER TITLE INSTEAD!), and want to see for sure where this Best Friends angle goes. On the really good 6-man match, though, I am so, so there if they want to make a heel stable out of angry Ishii, violent Goto, and dickhead Ospreay, though if he ever turned against Naito I'd want Shingo in there, too. A man can dream, right?
Only complaints were a few matches feeling a bit too abbreviated and some of the outcomes being just a bit too obvious, but the action and storytelling were still mostly great and predictable doesn't always mean bad in pro wrestling, sometimes it means "logical and satisfying", instead.
So we're starting the year with Tana vs. White, Naito vs. Taichi, SANADA/EVIL vs. Suzuki/Sabre, Juice vs. "Pre-Show Greg", Finlay perhaps on the verge of a real push, Ishii possibly stepping up against Nagata, Bullet Club at full strength, but the fate of Kenny Omega totally up in the air. Still a lot of moving pieces to be settled, but I'm guessing we won't see more of them get into place before the New Beginning shows.
Oh, also, HOPES AND DREAMS/SAVE THE WORLD
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 5, 2019 16:12:38 GMT -5
The problem with using White as someone to appeal to the west is that White is despised in the States. Not a cool heel type, but a nasty scumbag heel that isn't out to sell merchandise or gain fans. Makes for a decent heel in Japan itself but not someone to expand around. Gotta be honest, the stuff they set up here sounds utterly dire. Tana/White, Naito/Taichi...dear god. If a heel is despised by the fans, than he's doing his job right. The cool heel era needs to fade away. You think Roberts worried about fans thinking he was cool when he had his cobra bite Savage? I’m fine with a couple of cool heels like Omega around when there are some unlikable ones like Taichi or sadistic heels like Suzuki to balance them out. Likewise, I like how there’s a cool anti hero in Naito, a traditional babyface in Tanahashi and a more arrogant top face in Okada. NJPW has good character variety, like how super serious wrestlers like Ishii will be paired with comedy guys like Yano. There should be something for different types of fans.
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Jan 5, 2019 16:27:05 GMT -5
Shingo stated after winning the tag belts he aims to go higher Ishii/Shingo or Shingo vs. Okada would be off the charts badass. Ishii vs. Shingo is pretty much the only reason I'm cool with Shingo bouncing from DG for NJPW. Like...I NEED to see that match.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 16:57:40 GMT -5
The problem with using White as someone to appeal to the west is that White is despised in the States. Not a cool heel type, but a nasty scumbag heel that isn't out to sell merchandise or gain fans. Makes for a decent heel in Japan itself but not someone to expand around. Gotta be honest, the stuff they set up here sounds utterly dire. Tana/White, Naito/Taichi...dear god. If a heel is despised by the fans, than he's doing his job right. The cool heel era needs to fade away. You think Roberts worried about fans thinking he was cool when he had his cobra bite Savage? I really have never at all understood this viewpoint. More than anything a heel needs to be entertaining. Being booed should be completely secondary. You have someone who goes out of their way to sacrifice entertainment value for pissing off fans, like say Punk's heel run or this current Bryan, "I'm going to spend 20 minutes screaming at the crowd every week!" thing to me that just creates unwatchable television. That said only real issue I have with White is he doesn't look particularly threatening. Better gear and maybe a beard would do him a lot of good.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 5, 2019 17:36:59 GMT -5
If a heel is despised by the fans, than he's doing his job right. The cool heel era needs to fade away. You think Roberts worried about fans thinking he was cool when he had his cobra bite Savage? I really have never at all understood this viewpoint. More than anything a heel needs to be entertaining. Being booed should be completely secondary. You have someone who goes out of their way to sacrifice entertainment value for pissing off fans, like say Punk's heel run or this current Bryan, "I'm going to spend 20 minutes screaming at the crowd every week!" thing to me that just creates unwatchable television. That said only real issue I have with White is he doesn't look particularly threatening. Better gear and maybe a beard would do him a lot of good. If a heel starts to be entertaining they start getting cheered
As a heel you a supposed to be booed and help the crowd invest into the babyface. Jay White in his programs has got people to invest into Juice and Okada. Yes, both guys are fan favorites but he pulled his weight and outside of his first match against a beaten up Tana, he has shown why he is their biggest prospect since Okada
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 17:46:58 GMT -5
I really have never at all understood this viewpoint. More than anything a heel needs to be entertaining. Being booed should be completely secondary. You have someone who goes out of their way to sacrifice entertainment value for pissing off fans, like say Punk's heel run or this current Bryan, "I'm going to spend 20 minutes screaming at the crowd every week!" thing to me that just creates unwatchable television. That said only real issue I have with White is he doesn't look particularly threatening. Better gear and maybe a beard would do him a lot of good. If a heel starts to be entertaining they start getting cheered As a heel you a supposed to be booed and help the crowd invest into the babyface. Jay White in his programs has got people to invest into Juice and Okada. Yes, both guys are fan favorites but he pulled his weight and outside of his first match against a beaten up Tana, he has shown why he is their biggest prospect since Okada
Who cares if they get cheered? What difference does that actually make? Yes, the ideal is to both be entertaining and be booed at the same time - and there certainly are people who are capable of getting the crowd to boo them and being incredibly entertaining while doing it, Miz and Ciampa come immediately to mind - but to me, the end of the day deliberately making someone non-entertaining solely to get the "proper" reaction is just deliberately producing bad television. Unless you're wanting to argue boring-ass King Barrett made for a better product than when people actually gave a shit about Bad News Barrett. The only argument I ever see against cool heels is, "But then they'd get cheered!" with zero expounding on why exactly that's a bad thing beyond just, "But they aren't supposed to be!" Why not? Something like AJ's 2016 run or the nWo made for good television and made money, what exactly is the downside here beyond, "But it's not traditional though!"?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Jan 5, 2019 17:58:37 GMT -5
If a heel starts to be entertaining they start getting cheered As a heel you a supposed to be booed and help the crowd invest into the babyface. Jay White in his programs has got people to invest into Juice and Okada. Yes, both guys are fan favorites but he pulled his weight and outside of his first match against a beaten up Tana, he has shown why he is their biggest prospect since Okada
Who cares if they get cheered? What difference does that actually make? A lot of difference which is why you have the distinction between heels and faces
The heels job is to make the face look good, make the crowd invested. Yes, their may be things you like about them but their job is to go in there and keep the crowd invested for the babyface to get their shine
Minoru Suzuki does this well. The crowd embraces the song but once he gets in the ring he's a sadistic asshole who builds the sympathy for the babyface. It's "entertaining" to see him pick apart the opponent but he's also doing his job. ZSJ and his wrestling is "entertaining" but he's out their to hurt people. Jericho the same going against the anti hero Naito and he got the crowd invested in that match which told a story
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 18:02:39 GMT -5
Who cares if they get cheered? What difference does that actually make? A lot of difference which is why you have the distinction between heels and faces The heels job is to make the face look good, make the crowd invested. Yes, their may be things you like about them but their job is to go in there and keep the crowd invested for the babyface to get their shine Minoru Suzuki does this well. The crowd embraces the song but once he gets in the ring he's a sadistic asshole who builds the sympathy for the babyface. It's "entertaining" to see him pick apart the opponent but he's also doing his job. ZSJ and his wrestling is "entertaining" but he's out their to hurt people. Jericho the same going against the anti hero Naito and he got the crowd invested in that match which told a story
Again, you're arguing solely from tradition here. You're basically just saying, "Heels aren't supposed to be cheered therefore heels aren't supposed to be cheered," without offering any sort of reason as to why exactly that should be the case.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 5, 2019 18:43:38 GMT -5
If a heel is despised by the fans, than he's doing his job right. The cool heel era needs to fade away. You think Roberts worried about fans thinking he was cool when he had his cobra bite Savage? I’m fine with a couple of cool heels like Omega around when there are some unlikable ones like Taichi or sadistic heels like Suzuki to balance them out. Likewise, I like how there’s a cool anti hero in Naito, a traditional babyface in Tanahashi and a more arrogant top face in Okada. NJPW has good character variety, like how super serious wrestlers like Ishii will be paired with comedy guys like Yano. There should be something for different types of fans. Something that has really struck me the last 18 months or so is that NJPW, for all puro's long-held stereotype of "nobody has a character or personality they just go wrestle in different tights".....Their character work blows WWE's out of the water and they don't even need the same volume of angles or backstage promos to do it. That isn't saying that WWE doesn't have characters- they do, a lot- but I'd say that, at least in prominent highlighted positions, NJPW's characters are very clearly defined and you can tell exactly what they're about from their looks to music to the way they wrestle, while WWE has a lot more who fall into one of two lazy traps: "My character is I can wrestle good"- Face Rollins is that, Face Nakamura is that, AJ is that, Balor is that, Face Sami Zayn is that, Cesaro is that, Face Miz is kind of this, Revival are kinda this on the main roster, Gable is this, Hideo Itami is this, most of the 205 guys are this. A HUGE chunk of NXT is this. Or "My character is you can sing my theme song"- Nakamura was also this, Bobby Roode is this. New Japan, by contrast- their guys feel much more immediate as to who and what they are because they're brimming with personality, and even guys who IMO have a tendency to fall short on personality like ZSJ or Ospreay- you can still see what they are meant to be seen as. The language barrier is overcome by clearly defined writing, and the way they structure matches so that each match feels different and builds on what came before means that there's always a story being told. It's not just "we're wrestling because we need a match in this slot". As for the cheer/boo heel thing and White's drawing potential- I think he's a very entertaining "love-to-hate" villain. Utterly loathable and irredeemable and not in any way cool but also not somebody who turns you off the product or is outright trying to damage fans' enjoyment of the product for the sake of 'heat'- For many, Tama and Bullet Club did EXACTLY this during the G1 and I can see why- I thought it was going to have a more direct payoff so put up with it at the time but it didn't really amount to much. White I think is a heel draw, but that's the problem- he's a HEEL draw. You don't pay to see him win you pay to see him lose, so you're really paying in support of who he's up against- he's the guy who fights the guy, he's the guy who makes a face opponent into a top star. For example, if White became champion and got beaten by SANADA, SANADA is instantly made as a main event babyface. But as a long term, ticket-selling Ace, I don't think White has that. He might, he might evolve and surprise me, but to me he's a natural pure heel, rather than an Omega who can play either side, or a Naito or Okada who can sit in the middle and adapt to whatever scenario you book. He's the anti-Tanahashi, which is why him vs Tana is a great first defence.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 5, 2019 18:45:26 GMT -5
Get ready for IC Taichi. Naito loves that guy irl lol
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 5, 2019 18:52:28 GMT -5
Get ready for IC Taichi. Naito loves that guy irl lol If it lets Naito become the hero who conquers the upstart Jay White or a resurgent full-heel Omega for the title and then finally avenges himself vs Okada next year then sure, why not give Taichi a chance to see if he can hang at a higher level. My dream card right now for WK14 is a headline trio of: IWGP Title- Naito (c) vs Okada Grudge Match or IC Title- Kenny Omega vs Kota Ibushi (maybe the headliner for one of the 2 days) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Jay White- White avenges his WK12 loss, and finally ends The Ace's days as a contender.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 5, 2019 19:00:34 GMT -5
Get ready for IC Taichi. Naito loves that guy irl lol If it lets Naito become the hero who conquers the upstart Jay White or a resurgent full-heel Omega for the title and then finally avenges himself vs Okada next year then sure, why not give Taichi a chance to see if he can hang at a higher level. My dream card right now for WK14 is a headline trio of: IWGP Title- Naito (c) vs Okada Grudge Match or IC Title- Kenny Omega vs Kota Ibushi (maybe the headliner for one of the 2 days) Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Jay White- White avenges his WK12 loss, and finally ends The Ace's days as a contender. I’m pessimistic. But I’d be a total fan and have Naito win g1 as champ and pick Okada lol I think nyd was a bit tame but the next few shows will build up
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Post by cabbageboy on Jan 5, 2019 19:09:55 GMT -5
I kinda like the 2 day WK next year, since there were a ton of guys on that goofy gauntlet match that should have made the main card. They could also invite ROH to the show again and maybe even feature a CMLL match or even AEW.
They cannot seriously put something as relevant as the IC on Taichi. Look, he's fairly amusing as a joke jobber. But he mostly sucks. His NEVER title win over Goto was maybe the worst NJPW match I've seen in the past year, with a close 2nd being oddly enough Fale/Tana from the G1 (which was deadly dull and had a DQ finish).
One thing to consider with Omega is where would he fit into the current NJPW scene? He's out of the Bullet Club. He's not a part of any other established faction. The Elite aren't in the company anymore. I'd probably have him freak out and turn total heel, take back the Bullet Club (after White is unsuccessful against Tanahashi), etc. That would put him at odds with Ibushi and set the stage for that whole match later on at WK in 2020. This is all if Omega stays for another year. After putting over Ibushi most likely I do think Omega is done with NJPW though. What would he do after that?
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chrom
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Master of the rare undecuple post
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Post by chrom on Jan 5, 2019 19:14:36 GMT -5
To fill out the Tokyo Dome for New Year's Dash, they can't just have random multiman tags.
I'd bring in and showcase guys from ROH, CMLL, RPW and AEW as well as have titles like The US or Never defended on it.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 5, 2019 19:24:29 GMT -5
Also just pay Uncle Jun whatever he wants for Miyahara special exhibiton.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 5, 2019 20:49:20 GMT -5
A lot of difference which is why you have the distinction between heels and faces The heels job is to make the face look good, make the crowd invested. Yes, their may be things you like about them but their job is to go in there and keep the crowd invested for the babyface to get their shine Minoru Suzuki does this well. The crowd embraces the song but once he gets in the ring he's a sadistic asshole who builds the sympathy for the babyface. It's "entertaining" to see him pick apart the opponent but he's also doing his job. ZSJ and his wrestling is "entertaining" but he's out their to hurt people. Jericho the same going against the anti hero Naito and he got the crowd invested in that match which told a story
Again, you're arguing solely from tradition here. You're basically just saying, "Heels aren't supposed to be cheered therefore heels aren't supposed to be cheered," without offering any sort of reason as to why exactly that should be the case. Nah, he said it: much of the time a heel's job is to get shine for the babyface, and if the crowd is cheering the heel then there's a good chance that they're not united in supporting the face. When your job is to make the face look good and you get cheered instead, you didn't do your job. White's effectiveness as a heel helped to get the crowd fully united behind Okada, a character everyone has always respected but wasn't always exactly beloved given his role as the "chosen one" and dominant champion; he did his job enormously well. However, I fully agree that many are stuck in a mindset that says that the only dynamic that works in pro wrestling is "dastardly heel gets shine for the babyface" when character dynamics in pro wrestling can be a LOT more varied than that. There can be times when the booking goal involves something beyond the basic binary of "bad guy's actions rally the crowd to cheer good guy", and in those situations people really shouldn't be afraid to allow a heel to get cheered, since it can be indicative of the crowd being more heavily invested in whatever story you're telling. Basically, context determines everything; Suzuki-gun's job the vast majority of the time isn't to just have great matches, their job is to make sure their opponents are getting cheered, hence why they spend so much time taking shortcuts, brawling on the outside, and doing things to avoid getting cheers from the crowd (I will forever adore Minoru Suzuki's promo earlier this year when he scolded the crowd for cheering him by saying "I'm going to go outside, steal a bus, and run you all over when you leave!"), but young Okada being an arrogant dick against ace Tanahashi back in the day worked too even though many fans wound up cheering Okada, since his rise in prominence was part of the story being told.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 5, 2019 22:04:41 GMT -5
Not taking sides but Lizuka throwing away his apathetic gimmick for this awful debate is hilarious.
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Post by corndog on Jan 6, 2019 0:19:28 GMT -5
Man everyone talking about rage quitting because Omega lost is ridiculous. What do you expect? You want New Japan to keep the top belt on someone who isn't even under contract through the next tour, when he won't commit? That is TNA levels of stupid and while they did it with Nakamura, they have clearly learned since then and that was at least the secondary title. It's not 100% that he is leaving as far as I know, but I am willing to bet he is weighing his options, otherwise why not resign early and keep the belt? He wasn't even at New Year's Dash, which is pretty telling.
However I will say, if that was Kenny's last New Japan match, hell of a match to hang his hat on. If Meltzer wants to give that 100 stars, I won't argue it. I had a feeling he was losing and probably leaving when he was walking down the ramp. It looked like he was holding back tears in his eyes.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Jan 6, 2019 0:27:37 GMT -5
Man everyone talking about rage quitting because Omega lost is ridiculous. What do you expect? You want New Japan to keep the top belt on someone who isn't even under contract through the next tour, when he won't commit? That is TNA levels of stupid and while they did it with Nakamura, they have clearly learned since then and that was at least the secondary title. It's not 100% that he is leaving as far as I know, but I am willing to bet he is weighing his options, otherwise why not resign early and keep the belt? He wasn't even at New Year's Dash, which is pretty telling. However I will say, if that was Kenny's last New Japan match, hell of a match to hang his hat on. If Meltzer wants to give that 100 stars, I won't argue it. I had a feeling he was losing and probably leaving when he was walking down the ramp. It looked like he was holding back tears in his eyes. Did Meltz actually rate it yet? I don’t put any importance in his ratings but it’s interesting to see what he would say given his he scale he established.
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Post by honsou on Jan 6, 2019 1:23:17 GMT -5
Meltzer was asked at the end of the last podcast if there was any match that got above 5 stars and he said yes. Given that he thought that last years Jericho match was better I think its safe to say that Omega Tana got above 5 stars
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