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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Nov 7, 2018 12:11:11 GMT -5
As someone who enjoys Jericho's NJPW work, I have to say it's sad how much good will he's lost. This time last year, the match between he and Omega was the biggest news in wrestling, and everybody was excited for it.
Now the novelty's kind of worn out, an the match between he and Naito is just met with indifference.
This is also terrible for the Intercontinental belt. A reign where the belt is a non-entity, sandwiched between two reigns of a guy who's spent every waking moment he's had the belt burying it. They're really making their number 2 belt look like...
Well number 2...
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Post by 2coldMack is even more baffled on Nov 7, 2018 14:17:48 GMT -5
As someone who enjoys Jericho's NJPW work, I have to say it's sad how much good will he's lost. This time last year, the match between he and Omega was the biggest news in wrestling, and everybody was excited for it. Now the novelty's kind of worn out, an the match between he and Naito is just met with indifference. This is also terrible for the Intercontinental belt. A reign where the belt is a non-entity, sandwiched between two reigns of a guy who's spent every waking moment he's had the belt burying it. They're really making their number 2 belt look like... Well number 2... To be fair, I've been done with Jericho for some time, well before the Omega match stuff.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Nov 7, 2018 14:55:25 GMT -5
As someone who enjoys Jericho's NJPW work, I have to say it's sad how much good will he's lost. This time last year, the match between he and Omega was the biggest news in wrestling, and everybody was excited for it. Now the novelty's kind of worn out, an the match between he and Naito is just met with indifference. This is also terrible for the Intercontinental belt. A reign where the belt is a non-entity, sandwiched between two reigns of a guy who's spent every waking moment he's had the belt burying it. They're really making their number 2 belt look like... Well number 2... Yeah. They really botched the follow-through after Omega-Jericho. I'm sure the intent is to eventually put over Naito but between Naito redundantly getting the IC title, their initial match, Jerichos ...fat emo look..something there just didn't click. I liked when Jericho initially started attacking Naito and Naitos chill response but..it's just been lackluster since.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 15:16:08 GMT -5
Let’s be honest thought, when was the last time Naito actually showed up since he beat Omega at last year’s g1? His Okada match, the f***ing match that should have been incredible, win or loss, was just fine.
His Sabre matches were all great, but those were Sabre matches. His g1 overall was thoroughly disappointing, especially when you compare it to Iishi and Ibushi.
Naito Is slumming it like Nakamura is WWE. He’s treading water and not doing anything interesting. The tell point was when he hit Sabre with the first Destiny at Power Struggle and no one cared. Naito’s performance and matches aren’t what they were. And I’d rather see guys from the young lions who are killing themselves in their limitations get a push.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2018 16:29:34 GMT -5
Let’s be honest thought, when was the last time Naito actually showed up since he beat Omega at last year’s g1? His Okada match, the f***ing match that should have been incredible, win or loss, was just fine. His Sabre matches were all great, but those were Sabre matches. His g1 overall was thoroughly disappointing, especially when you compare it to Iishi and Ibushi. Naito Is slumming it like Nakamura is WWE. He’s treading water and not doing anything interesting. The tell point was when he hit Sabre with the first Destiny at Power Struggle and no one cared. Naito’s performance and matches aren’t what they were. And I’d rather see guys from the young lions who are killing themselves in their limitations get a push. Naito's great and all, even an okay Naito's match is fun to watch but my struggle with him has always been the tranquilo thing. I get why Omega's not doing it for everyone but at least with him it seems like he's trying to tell a grand story. With Naito, his character is cool but he's so passive that I really feel nothing in regards to his place on the card. He doesn't push me to wanna see him fight for championships because if Naito's character doesn't care, why should I care?
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Nov 7, 2018 16:59:17 GMT -5
Let’s be honest thought, when was the last time Naito actually showed up since he beat Omega at last year’s g1? His Okada match, the f***ing match that should have been incredible, win or loss, was just fine. His Sabre matches were all great, but those were Sabre matches. His g1 overall was thoroughly disappointing, especially when you compare it to Iishi and Ibushi. Naito Is slumming it like Nakamura is WWE. He’s treading water and not doing anything interesting. The tell point was when he hit Sabre with the first Destiny at Power Struggle and no one cared. Naito’s performance and matches aren’t what they were. And I’d rather see guys from the young lions who are killing themselves in their limitations get a push. Naito's great and all, even an okay Naito's match is fun to watch but my struggle with him has always been the tranquilo thing. I get why Omega's not doing it for everyone but at least with him it seems like he's trying to tell a grand story. With Naito, his character is cool but he's so passive that I really feel nothing in regards to his place on the card. He doesn't push me to wanna see him fight for championships because if Naito's character doesn't care, why should I care? He does care. He's stated a few times that he wants to be IWGP champion and the other titles means nothing to him. He's defended Japanese wrestlers from Omega during the G1. His supposed internal struggle after the WK loss was supposed too be how he wants to be accepted by the fans but still wants to be his same old Tranquillo self
People forget outside of the Okada match last year, Omega went through the same lame stretch Okada did before Jericho came along and that lit a fire under him
My biggest thing is what I said 6 months ago and what i'm saying now, the Jericho rematch is a waste of time. You've had Naito tread water and people liked myself hoped they cooled him cause he was winning the G1 and that wasn't it. They had him take the title off Suzuki just so they can transfer it to Jericho. That in itself ends the feud between them right there. Jericho does not need to have rematches in NJPW and this is a big waste of time for Naito because he wins the IC title he doesn't need and holds it until he drops it and potentially picks up the belt from Tana
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Post by AwamoriRock on Nov 7, 2018 17:35:45 GMT -5
He’s been wrestling guys who suck: tacos, Taichi Are old and inconsistent: Suzuki Fat and unsafe: Jericho
And for such a character that “doesn’t care” (do people still think this ?) has a stronger connection with the crowd than anyone on the roster. He also wrestled the most this year out of anyone on the roster with two bad knees at 36 and probably had one of the better performances in a lackluster G1.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Nov 7, 2018 17:49:35 GMT -5
And for such a character that “doesn’t care” (do people still think this ?) has a stronger connection with the crowd than anyone on the roster. He also wrestled the most this year out of anyone on the roster with two bad knees at 36 and probably had one of the better performances in a lackluster G1. Yea, his character since last year G1 has been someone who loves the admiration but doesn't want to admit it. The story they wanted to tell out of WK was he went back to Stardust Genius Naito and didn't stay Tranquilo which cost him
However, if i'm not mistaken a made a thread a few months ago about how they've done Naito bad but i'm willing to have patience but it was wearing thin a few months ago and is thinner today. I assume he has another few months where he spins his wheels after holding the IC title for a bit before defeating Omega/Tana for the title
Hopefully, next year is where they finally have him defeat Okada at WK with the title on the line because that's the last piece to his career
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Post by cabbageboy on Nov 7, 2018 18:04:18 GMT -5
The G1 was lackluster? I mean the A Block perhaps but the B Block was one of the best collections of wrestling talent maybe ever. As far as Naito goes I think the Suzuki matches hurt him and it wasn't due to Suzuki. Suzuki did his thing. The matches were perhaps too long (a good Suzuki match is 18-20 mins.), but the big issue is that Naito doesn't entirely have the crowd's undying support when he's getting crushed. Suzuki/Naito isn't going to be the sort of hard hitting slugfest that an Ishii match would be, so it is more like the Suzuki/Tana match where Suzuki maims him with submissions. But in two matches I haven't seen the crowd truly invested in Naito. He doesn't really draw sympathy. That's hard to book as a top babyface.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Nov 8, 2018 0:51:48 GMT -5
As someone who enjoys Jericho's NJPW work, I have to say it's sad how much good will he's lost. This time last year, the match between he and Omega was the biggest news in wrestling, and everybody was excited for it. Now the novelty's kind of worn out, an the match between he and Naito is just met with indifference. This is also terrible for the Intercontinental belt. A reign where the belt is a non-entity, sandwiched between two reigns of a guy who's spent every waking moment he's had the belt burying it. They're really making their number 2 belt look like... Well number 2... Yeah. They really botched the follow-through after Omega-Jericho. I'm sure the intent is to eventually put over Naito but between Naito redundantly getting the IC title, their initial match, Jerichos ...fat emo look..something there just didn't click. I liked when Jericho initially started attacking Naito and Naitos chill response but..it's just been lackluster since. I honestly think the reason it hasn't worked is because it's supposed to be a heated rivalry between them, but only one of them really seems to give a shit about the other. Jericho, being the hot shot legend that he is took offense to Naito questioning why he was given the Co-main event spot at Wrestle Kingdom. For Naito that was just kind of an off handed remark that he wasn't too stuck on. Jericho jumps him, and Naito doesn't seem to stuck on it. He repeats the action, he again casually dismisses it. Jericho beats him for a belt that not only does Naito not care about but has a notable hatred for. Naito's made it clear that he doesn't care about this feud with Chris Jericho. He doesn't care about the Intercontinental Title. The Character that's gotten Naito so damn far, just doesn't work in a storyline like this. He doesn't really have any kind of a pronounced hot-blooded streak. This worked well with Kenny, because Kenny after getting assaulted from behind went on the war path with Jericho. No more fun, no more games. The US Title was just icing on the cake. If he'd done this with Okada, then he'd have been all over gaining revenge. With Naito... What does he get out of this if he wins? Vindication? A victory over a major rival? He's been largely indifferent to the whole thing. Jericho's been more of an annoyance than anything from Naito's perspective. The Intercontinental Title? Naito has been shitting on that belt for years. (Which believe me, I have some pretty strong opinions of, but that's a discussion for later). He has no real motive to be challenging Jericho at the Dome and it's just led to burning indifference for what's supposed to be one of the biggest matches on the card.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 8, 2018 17:53:40 GMT -5
I'm completely on board with the main event. Maybe it's because I didn't watch the entire press conference or whatever, but I love what Tanahashi vs. Omega represents. I'd love to see Tana win, but I feel there's a good "Omega goes off the deep end" story to be told if he wins and feels his "vision" has been vindicated.
Jericho/Naito...said it before, but Gedo's whole "every marquee match needs a belt on the line" thing is his biggest weakness. Nakamura/AJ didn't need the IC belt back at WK 10, and this match doesn't need it here, either, it already has a perfectly good feud built in to let the two brawl over. Would have much rather seen Suzuki hang onto the belt for most of the year and eventually drop it to someone like EVIL or Ishii. Said it before, but Gedo's good at building up value in the company's titles, but where it bites him is when it's time to cash in some of that shine and get somebody new over and we instead revert the belt to guys who don't need it. I'm looking forward to the match itself, but it's time to get Naito away from the IC belt and let that strap do the work of building up the next group of upper midcarders and potential top draws.
KUSHIDA's one of my favorites, regardless, but I really perked up over the idea of him winning the Jr. title back after Hiromu's injury when I realized he'd probably face Ishimori at the Dome. Hook that shit up to my veins.
Okada/White finally does break that "every marquee match needs a title" habit, so I'm grateful for that, and I want to see where the story goes. If there truly is a mole inside CHAOS, I'm going to assume he won't turn until New Years Dash, but somebody helping White knock Okada off via shenanigans at WK would certainly build super heat.
Agreed that I'd rather the Jr. tag title match just be RP3K vs. Suzuki-gun; there's a story there, given the whole angle that SHO and YOH are this hotshot young team that simply can't work around Kanemaru and Desperado's cheating, and BUSHI and Shingo just don't fit in there. I get wanting LIJ to have a strong presence on the main card of the show and thus slotting them here, but that's what you get when you're trying to fit in a lot of talent onto one card.
Goto challenging Ibushi is interesting; he did it after he won the belt back, but also said he wants Ospreay to get a shot at the NEVER upon his return. Wonder how injured Ospreay still is? Honestly, Goto vs. Ospreay would be a lot more interesting to me just because faction-mate vs. faction-mate for titles almost never happens in NJPW, and with the backdrop of White's "I've got someone on the inside" angle it'd be really compelling. If nothing else, at least having Ibushi and Ospreay as top names angling for the belt would mean it's getting back to being a true openweight title, and about damn time, too.
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lionheart21
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Post by lionheart21 on Nov 8, 2018 22:21:38 GMT -5
Jericho, I love ya man, but...state of your look, mate.
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Post by corndog on Nov 8, 2018 23:43:25 GMT -5
Let’s be honest thought, when was the last time Naito actually showed up since he beat Omega at last year’s g1? His Okada match, the f***ing match that should have been incredible, win or loss, was just fine. His Sabre matches were all great, but those were Sabre matches. His g1 overall was thoroughly disappointing, especially when you compare it to Iishi and Ibushi. Naito Is slumming it like Nakamura is WWE. He’s treading water and not doing anything interesting. The tell point was when he hit Sabre with the first Destiny at Power Struggle and no one cared. Naito’s performance and matches aren’t what they were. And I’d rather see guys from the young lions who are killing themselves in their limitations get a push. Naito isn't Okada, Omega, Ibushi or Ishii. Those guys are top workers that can get great matches out of everyone. Naito is a story based wrestler much like Tanahashi has become. But the problem is, he isn't given a good story to tell right now.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Nov 8, 2018 23:55:37 GMT -5
Okada is... really, really sexy. It's distracting. I haven't seen much NJPW, is he like Finn in WWE where you see half the locker room question their sexuality during his entrance? Is it possible in the UK to order this PPV just on its own, or would I have to subscribe to their network? Isn't that in Japanese? Okada put out a photoshoot of basically artistic nudity shots a few years ago, so, yeah, pretty much.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Nov 9, 2018 1:34:46 GMT -5
I’ve always seen Naito’s I-don’t-care deal being more about how he’s brushed off how fans used to boo him, and no longer is fixated on being the darling hero Tanahashi is (which in turn made him more popular) than it was about him not caring about being a successful wrestler.
Am I one of the few who’s feeling Jay White’s work? I feel he’s turning himself into a truly hateable heel, not quite as charismatic as Omega but I have more fun booing Jay than Kenny. It also doesn’t hurt that Gedo’s a great old school heel manager (all of his dirty tricks and begging off from Tana at KOPW had me marking out).
The mole needs to be a potential breakout star, so I would go with SHO. (Watch it be Yoshi Hashi though)
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Post by AwamoriRock on Nov 9, 2018 1:38:52 GMT -5
Am I one of the few who’s feeling Jay White’s work? I feel he’s turning himself into a truly hateable heel, not quite as charismatic as Omega but I have more fun booing Jay than Kenny. It also doesn’t hurt that Gedo’s a great old school heel manager (all of his dirty tricks and begging off from Tana at KOPW had me marking out). He's been in a bit of a tough spot. He's a natural babyface and wrestles well as one, and got over as a Young Lion doing that (Marufuji basically said he was the next Devitt), but the Switchblade character is not really fleshed out. On the way to the ring he is one of the edgelords from South Park, but in promos he acts more like Douchetista and that seems to fit him better. His wrestling growth I think got put in stasis because he was basically in 20 straight matches where he was booked to not really put on a match and just try and lowblow people. They seem to have moved away from that so he'll probably get better.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Nov 9, 2018 4:57:43 GMT -5
Most of my issue with Jay is how freaking lame his gimmick is, and I feel like that's just too meta to count as good heeling.
If they just ran with the "whiny, kind-of-entitled douchebag" thing, that'd be fine, but I don't buy the "Edgy, Intimidating Knife Pervert" presentation at all.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 9, 2018 6:54:13 GMT -5
Let’s be honest thought, when was the last time Naito actually showed up since he beat Omega at last year’s g1? His Okada match, the f***ing match that should have been incredible, win or loss, was just fine. His Sabre matches were all great, but those were Sabre matches. His g1 overall was thoroughly disappointing, especially when you compare it to Iishi and Ibushi. Naito Is slumming it like Nakamura is WWE. He’s treading water and not doing anything interesting. The tell point was when he hit Sabre with the first Destiny at Power Struggle and no one cared. Naito’s performance and matches aren’t what they were. And I’d rather see guys from the young lions who are killing themselves in their limitations get a push. Naito isn't Okada, Omega, Ibushi or Ishii. Those guys are top workers that can get great matches out of everyone. Naito is a story based wrestler much like Tanahashi has become. But the problem is, he isn't given a good story to tell right now. Been reading a bit more and found what might be the one theory that makes sense to me about Naito's booking this year: that a lot of this is set up to get him to the point where he'll win the IC belt from Jericho and then...not toss it away. On the surface that scares me: it implies Naito going into that long term IC champ role, which he doesn't need right now, and frankly neither does the company (again, too many newer upper card guys who'd benefit more from a run with the white strap). But if it's meant to symbolize Naito finally coming to terms with who he is, a guy who does care more than he let on over the past few years but who has still learned and grown since his Stardust Genius days, then the door might truly be open to him getting that definitive heavyweight title win where he gets a healthy run with the thing. In other words: a Naito who's still trainquilo, but who wouldn't take the IWGP title and toss it away like garbage. Whether that works well or not would be open to everyone watching, but that theory at least makes more sense to me, even if I'd still rather the Jericho match not be over a title.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 9, 2018 9:47:01 GMT -5
It is rather impressive that you take arguably the best match in recent history and have the guy winning the belt go on to have a nothing burger of a reign.
And, honestly, Naito deserves WAY much better than Midlife Crisis Jericho as his opponent.
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Post by corndog on Nov 9, 2018 13:02:32 GMT -5
Naito isn't Okada, Omega, Ibushi or Ishii. Those guys are top workers that can get great matches out of everyone. Naito is a story based wrestler much like Tanahashi has become. But the problem is, he isn't given a good story to tell right now. Been reading a bit more and found what might be the one theory that makes sense to me about Naito's booking this year: that a lot of this is set up to get him to the point where he'll win the IC belt from Jericho and then...not toss it away. On the surface that scares me: it implies Naito going into that long term IC champ role, which he doesn't need right now, and frankly neither does the company (again, too many newer upper card guys who'd benefit more from a run with the white strap). But if it's meant to symbolize Naito finally coming to terms with who he is, a guy who does care more than he let on over the past few years but who has still learned and grown since his Stardust Genius days, then the door might truly be open to him getting that definitive heavyweight title win where he gets a healthy run with the thing. In other words: a Naito who's still trainquilo, but who wouldn't take the IWGP title and toss it away like garbage. Whether that works well or not would be open to everyone watching, but that theory at least makes more sense to me, even if I'd still rather the Jericho match not be over a title. I have read on this theory and it scares me as well, but could be part of his growth. I also think there is another part of the theory as well. Naito's WK8 "redemption" story still has one piece missing, Nakamura. Nakamura's contract with WWE expires in January and many think he might return to New Japan. The IC title is still tied to Nakamura with the white strap, one of the reasons Naito destroyed the belt originally. When Nakamura left New Japan and gave up the title Naito called him a coward for never facing him and has criticized him for running away to WWE, yet New Japan still celebrates him. Naito hated the fact that Nakamura hand picked Tanahashi to defend the belt for him after leaving and that New Japan even allowed this, he felt it devalued the title and that once again New Japan overlooked him. This, maybe even more so than the IC title match main eventing WK8 is why he hates the belt and the fact that he thinks it became a memorial to Nakamura even though he feels Nakamura was a traitor going to WWE and is instead celebrated by New Japan. So obviously a Nakamura/Naito IC title match would make perfect sense in Naito's storyline, at the same time Naito embracing the IC title. But instead of embracing the title in it's current form, Naito changes the belt and makes it his own, finally realizing he has the power to change the future and cannot allow the past to haunt him. He finally truly becomes tranquilo.
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