|
Post by The Rick Jericho on Dec 17, 2018 20:11:27 GMT -5
CM Punk was so close to being a mega star on the level of Cena, Rock, Austin and got sabotaged by Nash and Hunter.....
UGH.... Still get annoyed this happened.
|
|
|
Post by Wilfred on Dec 17, 2018 20:43:59 GMT -5
Eh, I disagree. Wrestling is cyclical. To say there will "never" be another star that big is silly. Whether Vince is long gone or not, when the right guy/girl catches on and explodes... who knows? Could anybody have guessed 'Stunning' Steve would become who he became? Did anyone see Rocky Maivia becoming a massive Hollywood star? It might be another 50 years before they come along, but it's not impossible. What's that cheesy line in wrestling? Never say never.
|
|
|
Post by MrElijah on Dec 17, 2018 20:53:56 GMT -5
WWE won't let them be The brand is the selling name, not a specific wrestler I agree with everything you said... but I'll take it 1 step farther. They talk out both sides of their mouth. The Brand is the Selling Name but then they latch on to 1 dude and hell-or-high-water push the shit outta them as "The Guy". So I'd argue the company cuts itself off at the knees because it won't commit to either and ends up with two opposing lines of thought. And it damn well shows on the product. You get stuck with a "Come see the WWE where nobody matters except that one guy". Sad part? He also made Roman look like a dope at times.
|
|
Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
FANatic
You can either sink, swim, or be the captain....Long live the cheif
Posts: 113,331
Member is Online
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 17, 2018 20:56:42 GMT -5
I agree with everything you said... but I'll take it 1 step farther. They talk out both sides of their mouth. The Brand is the Selling Name but then they latch on to 1 dude and hell-or-high-water push the shit outta them as "The Guy". So I'd argue the company cuts itself off at the knees because it won't commit to either and ends up with two opposing lines of thought. And it damn well shows on the product. You get stuck with a "Come see the WWE where nobody matters except that one guy". Sad part? He also made Roman look like a dope at times. For a bigger star in Brock
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,826
|
Post by Dub H on Dec 17, 2018 22:10:24 GMT -5
he's right, vince doesn't want to create another megastar only for them to bugger off elsewhere to make money for themselves. yes it's selfish on his part incredibly so, but it makes sense business-wise... why make someone a household name only to lose them before you can get as much money from them as possible. also does explain why wwe cuts people off at the knees just as they start to hit a certain peak so often, you can get big in wwe but cant get bigger than wwe. how many names can be listed in the last 15 years where nonsensical booking decisions just squashed momentum. It really does not make sense business wise.It worked for years and when they stopped it went down the Shitter It is better to have top stars that leave you and can come back for specials ocasions than to have mediocrity
|
|
|
Post by Kevin Hamilton on Dec 17, 2018 22:36:53 GMT -5
All these arguments don't take into account the fragmentation of audiences now as well. On top of the valid things already said, there won't be a Rock and Austin to that level to the same reason you won't see 8s and 9s in the ratings ever again--people have more choices to choose entertainment that caters directly to them at any given time at their fingertips now.
|
|
segaz
Samurai Cop
Posts: 2,381
|
Post by segaz on Dec 18, 2018 7:14:06 GMT -5
he's right, vince doesn't want to create another megastar only for them to bugger off elsewhere to make money for themselves. yes it's selfish on his part incredibly so, but it makes sense business-wise... why make someone a household name only to lose them before you can get as much money from them as possible. also does explain why wwe cuts people off at the knees just as they start to hit a certain peak so often, you can get big in wwe but cant get bigger than wwe. how many names can be listed in the last 15 years where nonsensical booking decisions just squashed momentum. It's stupid. Before, the wrestlers could jump to his rival companies and yet that didn't stop him. Even without Austin in 2000, the WWE did well. And is Hogan leaving in 1993 a major reason why WWE business went bad in 1995? Not talking about 96 here Batista and Cena have been able to pursue careers after spending many years in WWE
How is this bad for WWE? They shouldn't be able to pursue careers afterwards? They should always be tied to the WWE? Did the NBA intentionally hamper cut off Micheal Jordan just because he became bigger than the brand/sport? Ditto Tiger Woods? Yeah, it makes sense that Vince would never want his stars to do anything besides be directly tied to him. It makes business sense why he'd try to get them to work as cheaply as possible, and lie to them that he's gonna superpush them soon. Why, it'd make business sense why he'd tie them into zero hour 30 year contracts where even if they don't wrestle, they still have to smile and perform for peanuts! It'd make business sense for him to provide their mortgages, in case one of them thinks about going elsewhere, he can legally remind them who owns their house. It'd make business sense for him to open up a school for the children of employees, so he can teach and train them to love the company and excel only in areas the company needs. Seriously this board has a huge trend of saying "Vince screwing somebody over is always the smartest business decision to make. All business men should do things like this"
|
|
|
Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Dec 18, 2018 7:25:13 GMT -5
I feel we are in mid 90s wrestling except instead of stupid gimmicks we have bland gimmicks no one wants to see.
|
|
repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,049
|
Post by repomark on Dec 18, 2018 8:15:08 GMT -5
I don’t think it’s a case of Vince not wanting to make a star on that level again - he absolutely tried with Roman Reigns - it is more that he is not able to get someone to that level anymore. He would love to have someone that hugely over as the face of the company I am sure - and it is not the case he is deliberately preventing it from happening for fear of losing someone he has cultivated to the the mainstream.
He is however accidentally preventing it from happening through some bizarre and counter productive booking in recent years. This, combined with a very different audience that are less willing to be spoon fed by WWE as to who “the guy” should be, has left us in a situation where it feels like Bully Ray might well be right.
I hope he isn’t though. There was a point that no one saw Austin becoming as big as he did, so none of us can predict what is round the corner.
|
|
|
Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Dec 18, 2018 9:07:52 GMT -5
I do think they’re is validity to what Bubba Ray is saying. Despite his age, Vince DOES know better. And so do HHH, Michael Hayes, and Road Dogg. But they want the brand to be the selling point, not any individual wrestler. The irony is that the brand benefits more when the talent isn’t kneecapped.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2018 9:30:27 GMT -5
Partially it's the WWE's fault. Partially it's just the way entertainment is now. There's never going to be another Elvis or Michael Jackson. Lebron James and Sidney Crosby are pretty cool and all, but they're not nearly as big as Jordan or Gretzky in their prime.
Everything is so divided and catered to a niche. There's not 1 person that's going to appeal to everyone anymore.
|
|
|
Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Dec 18, 2018 10:28:08 GMT -5
he's right, vince doesn't want to create another megastar only for them to bugger off elsewhere to make money for themselves. yes it's selfish on his part incredibly so, but it makes sense business-wise... why make someone a household name only to lose them before you can get as much money from them as possible. also does explain why wwe cuts people off at the knees just as they start to hit a certain peak so often, you can get big in wwe but cant get bigger than wwe. how many names can be listed in the last 15 years where nonsensical booking decisions just squashed momentum. Vince tried to become executive producer for The Rock in Hollywood to get a cut from that money, haha it didn’t last long.
|
|
mcstoklasa
Hank Scorpio
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 6,930
|
Post by mcstoklasa on Dec 18, 2018 11:39:06 GMT -5
As others have said, Austin and Rock coming up today wouldn’t succeed. Vince would force Steve to stay as a heel and keep pushing rocky naivia as a face
|
|
|
Post by prichardmark on Dec 18, 2018 12:09:41 GMT -5
The rate WWE is going they won't even have a superstar again. Much less another rock/Austin/hogan. They get people under not over and push guys who probably shouldn't be pushed. For god sakes, Natty "Not over" Neidhardt (LOL) and the Mcmahons get more TV time than the rest of the roster,
This company hasn't made a real superstar since the class of 2002. Almost 20 years. Punk/Bryan were the closest but they ruined both guys in a few short months
|
|
Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
FANatic
You can either sink, swim, or be the captain....Long live the cheif
Posts: 113,331
Member is Online
|
Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Dec 18, 2018 13:20:30 GMT -5
he's right, vince doesn't want to create another megastar only for them to bugger off elsewhere to make money for themselves. yes it's selfish on his part incredibly so, but it makes sense business-wise... why make someone a household name only to lose them before you can get as much money from them as possible. also does explain why wwe cuts people off at the knees just as they start to hit a certain peak so often, you can get big in wwe but cant get bigger than wwe. how many names can be listed in the last 15 years where nonsensical booking decisions just squashed momentum. It's stupid. Before, the wrestlers could jump to his rival companies and yet that didn't stop him. Even without Austin in 2000, the WWE did well. And is Hogan leaving in 1993 a major reason why WWE business went bad in 1995? Not talking about 96 here Batista and Cena have been able to pursue careers after spending many years in WWE
How is this bad for WWE? They shouldn't be able to pursue careers afterwards? They should always be tied to the WWE? Did the NBA intentionally hamper cut off Micheal Jordan just because he became bigger than the brand/sport? Ditto Tiger Woods? Yeah, it makes sense that Vince would never want his stars to do anything besides be directly tied to him. It makes business sense why he'd try to get them to work as cheaply as possible, and lie to them that he's gonna superpush them soon. Why, it'd make business sense why he'd tie them into zero hour 30 year contracts where even if they don't wrestle, they still have to smile and perform for peanuts! It'd make business sense for him to provide their mortgages, in case one of them thinks about going elsewhere, he can legally remind them who owns their house. It'd make business sense for him to open up a school for the children of employees, so he can teach and train them to love the company and excel only in areas the company needs. Seriously this board has a huge trend of saying "Vince screwing somebody over is always the smartest business decision to make. All business men should do things like this" Did you read my post? Where did I say it was bad for WWE and they couldn't pursue careers?
|
|
|
Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Dec 18, 2018 13:26:22 GMT -5
CM Punk was so close to being a mega star on the level of Cena, Rock, Austin and got sabotaged by Nash and Hunter..... UGH.... Still get annoyed this happened. I had so many conversations with lapsed fans about Punk. It was really their last best shot at pulling people back in.
|
|
|
Post by HMARK Center on Dec 18, 2018 15:05:27 GMT -5
Eh, I disagree. Wrestling is cyclical. To say there will "never" be another star that big is silly. Whether Vince is long gone or not, when the right guy/girl catches on and explodes... who knows? Could anybody have guessed 'Stunning' Steve would become who he became? Did anyone see Rocky Maivia becoming a massive Hollywood star? It might be another 50 years before they come along, but it's not impossible. What's that cheesy line in wrestling? Never say never. Well, of course "never say never", anything could change the entire landscape at some point, but I have to disagree with the notion that wrestling is cyclical. I think a lot of people got caught up in there being an 80s mainstream boom, then a bit of a fade, and then a late 90s boom and figured "that'll be how things are from now on", ignoring that the reason those booms happened was because they were appealing to the same audience: young people in the 80s who became young teens and 20-somethings in the 90s who wanted an edgier product. Today, the audience is different, and the circumstances are different, e.g. WWE wasn't a publicly traded company during the mid-90s. That completely alters the landscape and changes the potential there is to shake up the established order of it as an organization. As for Bully's point, he's certainly not entirely wrong, and it's one of the strange situations WWE has cooked up for themselves. By having the "nobody is bigger than the brand" mentality they've kept people from getting too over, thus keeping wages and salaries down, all while they've marketed the brand to big corporations and sponsors who've turned them into a $5 billion a year revenue juggernaut. And yet, they've also kneecapped their ability to grow their audience and even come close to another "boom period" because, let's face it, stars drive ratings and ticket sales in pro wrestling. As of right now it works for them, but what if we get to 2023-2024 or whenever their new TV deal is up and suddenly they're pulling barely 1.5 million a week?
|
|
|
Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 18, 2018 16:04:33 GMT -5
All these arguments don't take into account the fragmentation of audiences now as well. On top of the valid things already said, there won't be a Rock and Austin to that level to the same reason you won't see 8s and 9s in the ratings ever again--people have more choices to choose entertainment that caters directly to them at any given time at their fingertips now. Like I've said when people ask if Wrestling is Mainstream... it's not... because there really isn't any "mainstream" these days... I mean look at youtubers that have subscribers in the millions... I guarantee if you asked people on the street about them most people would have no idea who you are talking about... but they have more viewers than most Television shows. we live in strange times.
|
|
|
Post by Wilfred on Dec 18, 2018 16:39:07 GMT -5
Eh, I disagree. Wrestling is cyclical. To say there will "never" be another star that big is silly. Whether Vince is long gone or not, when the right guy/girl catches on and explodes... who knows? Could anybody have guessed 'Stunning' Steve would become who he became? Did anyone see Rocky Maivia becoming a massive Hollywood star? It might be another 50 years before they come along, but it's not impossible. What's that cheesy line in wrestling? Never say never. Well, of course "never say never", anything could change the entire landscape at some point, but I have to disagree with the notion that wrestling is cyclical. I think a lot of people got caught up in there being an 80s mainstream boom, then a bit of a fade, and then a late 90s boom and figured "that'll be how things are from now on", ignoring that the reason those booms happened was because they were appealing to the same audience: young people in the 80s who became young teens and 20-somethings in the 90s who wanted an edgier product. Today, the audience is different, and the circumstances are different, e.g. WWE wasn't a publicly traded company during the mid-90s. That completely alters the landscape and changes the potential there is to shake up the established order of it as an organization. As for Bully's point, he's certainly not entirely wrong, and it's one of the strange situations WWE has cooked up for themselves. By having the "nobody is bigger than the brand" mentality they've kept people from getting too over, thus keeping wages and salaries down, all while they've marketed the brand to big corporations and sponsors who've turned them into a $5 billion a year revenue juggernaut. And yet, they've also kneecapped their ability to grow their audience and even come close to another "boom period" because, let's face it, stars drive ratings and ticket sales in pro wrestling. As of right now it works for them, but what if we get to 2023-2024 or whenever their new TV deal is up and suddenly they're pulling barely 1.5 million a week? I see where you're coming from and you've got some good points. I'm not saying it'll be easy for someone to attain the level of a Rock or Austin, but not impossible. Leaving the politics out of it, but look at Trump here in the US who harnessed social media to push his agenda and he's been called the first 'social media' president who wouldn't have won without it. Why couldn't a supremely talented pro wrestler use that same approach to push into the mainstream/casual fans by utilizing Facebook/Twitter/youtube/whatever on a huge scale? And look at the mma world with stars like Conor or Ronda who became massive draws even with all this 'fragmented media'. We'll just have to disagree on this one.
|
|
|
Post by 111111 on Dec 18, 2018 19:21:48 GMT -5
It’s only a small aspect of a greater problem, but lately, the ordinary names have been bothering me. Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose sound like insurance salesman. Not larger than life SUPERSTARS. In all fairness if Seth Rollins and Dean Ambrose became household names their names might sound less stupid. I reckon The Rock, Hulk Hogan and Stone Cold Steve Austin's names would sound stupid as hell if we weren't so used to hearing them.
|
|