Post by mrbananagrabber on Dec 21, 2018 21:49:00 GMT -5
So what do you think works best? An actual angle/event/storyline where a wrestler either turns heel or face that night? Or a more gradual “this guy is getting good/bad reactions, so we’ll gradually turn him by changing his mannerisms and everything to give the crowd more chance to boo/cheer.”
I’ll use Enzo and Cass as examples. Started out as heels on NXT but were quickly turned face after the fans began to cheer for them. No real “face turn” moment. Then on Raw Big Cass attacked Enzo for a definite and instant heel turn, but Enzo didn’t really have one of his own, just got (more) annoying and cocky until you wanted to see him get annihilated.
So what do you think is more effective? Instant turn moments or a more gradual shift?
Depends on the person and how in sync they are with their alignment. Some wrestlers need the slow burn in order for it to be believable. Miz for example, his current turn is going well because it's happening slowly in a way that it would make sense. The guy's been one of the best heels for a while so this is the only way I'd believe it. Now look back at his 2012 turn, that was trash. Had they executed it slowly we would have had a better result. Had he turned quickly right now I wouldn't like it. It all depends on the wrestler.
Last Edit: Dec 21, 2018 21:58:54 GMT -5 by kn (BLM)
Post by Urethra Franklin on Dec 21, 2018 22:04:15 GMT -5
It honestly depends. Both can work very well.
For example, Big Dave’s slowburn turn on Evolution was one of the greatest face turns of all-time because everybody knew it was coming, they just didn’t know when and people were waiting for it.
On the other hand, Seth Rollins’s turn on The Shield came out of nowhere and the shock of it made everybody’s anger about it the more visceral. And in that case, I don’t think a slow turn could’ve possibly worked.
But at the end of the day, the mitigating factor in everything has to be whether or not it makes sense.
Slowburn or instantaneous, it’s going to suck if it isn’t logical.
Post by Dalunaticfringe on Dec 21, 2018 22:48:05 GMT -5
I think Deans turn was a good combo of both (not talking about the aftermath), he had a slow burn of weeks of will he or not, and then The week nobody expects him to turn and we think they drop It for a while, he shocks the world and turns heel
Post by The Thread Barbarian on Dec 22, 2018 23:18:20 GMT -5
Moments are like Transformers movies. A collection of set pieces for spectacle with no rhyme, reason or narrative. (RAW for the last ten years)
Long gestating story points are better. It will encapsulate "moments" but be memorable. Like when Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker faced off for the first time. (Bret Hart's heel turn in 1997, including the best visual moment of the Attitude Era)
Post by PsychoGoatee on Dec 23, 2018 16:39:12 GMT -5
Either way, I feel like the concept itself makes less and less sense over the years. Dean Ambrose now being a jerk and fighting his pal for no real reason, it feels contrived. And since I don't buy this turn and character, it just makes the whole thing uninteresting to me.
Likewise, while done better I suppose, I don't buy this Daniel Bryan heel turn. And I liked his heel stuff in ROH etc, just at the moment it feels like make believe nonsense. More so than usual. He's a good guy, the most noble likable character around, and again it feels arbitrary to switch that. Every single top character having a split personality and being completely insane is part of the biz, but I'm feeling less connected to that concept these days. The writing being good could help it I suppose.
It's necessarily to have heels, but I guess maybe don't try to make them all insane and completely evil right off the bat. I dunno, so I guess here I'll vote for organic. Though those moments can be cool, like with Rollins in 2014.
Post by Citizen Snips on Dec 23, 2018 17:23:01 GMT -5
A slow build with a definite moment to solidify it. Batista putting Triple H through the table, Bret turning on America the night after WM 13, Macho Man jumping the Luster in the dressing room, HBK throwing Jannetty through the window...all were the exclamation points on a long-building storyline and are all remembered as some of the best turns of all-time.
Sadly, those are becoming rarer and rarer these days.
Patti Mayonnaise Captain Pixel: the Game Master
Post by tankisfreemason on Dec 23, 2018 19:00:29 GMT -5
I usually prefer more organic turns that take time and tell a story, however one of my favorite turns is somewhere between organic and a moment. It’s not from WWE, it’s from ROH when they were going against CZW. Homicide, who was a huge heel his entire ROH stint, was being asked by Jim Cornette to help ROH in the war. He finally made his decision when he came out during a CZW beatdown of ROH, started attacking the CZW guys, which immediately led to a hell of a match against Necro Butcher. That’s my idea of a perfect turn.