"HTM threatened to take the IC belt to JCP" doesn't work

[Joe Neglia]

Over the years, this story has become accepted by a lot of people to explain his lengthy IC title reign. Supposedly, HTM threatened to show up on Crockett's show with the belt, but I don't see how this works. HTM makes this demand and Vince goes along with it? Vince? At most, Vince would have played along maybe a week or two after an ultimatum of that nature, then during a match, the IC belt is removed by a crewmember and HTM is fired on the spot the minute he returns backstage. WWF then reports on a phantom house show where HTM was so scared of an opponent, he fled the building, never to be seen again, abandoning/vacating the belt in the process. There just simply isn't any way Vince would have tolerated it.

[petef3]

"Just get the match in the ring" was a mantra of the McMahons for as long as they promoted. The thing I respect most about WWF booking was they (except in *extremely* rare circumstances, in case anyone even more overcorrective and pedantic than me wants to dig an exception up that I forgot) didn't do stupid BS like phantom title changes, titles being "loaned" or defended on someone else's behalf, getting vacated all the time, forgotten about, etc. Titles were won and lost in the ring, pretty much always. If they were vacated, it was for a specific and often promotion-altering angle or they were left with absolutely no other options. It didn't matter if Dynamite Kid was crippled or if Goldust had blown out his knee and couldn't walk--just get the match in the ring.

So when Honky had them over a barrel before one of the biggest nights in company history in front of a national network TV audience, Vince did what his father taught him to do: just get the match in the ring.

[bmfjules]

Book Honky in a squash match, then at the last minute, without telling him, send Haku in instead of Local Man #235...

[petef3]

Jan 28, 2019 1:39:22 GMT -5 bmfjules said:

Book Honky in a squash match, then at the last minute, without telling him, send Haku in instead of Local Man #235...

That would be a complete disaster.

I know we all love the "OMG Haku is so tough!!!!1" memes but to the WWF audience (and the WCW audience) he was just a guy. Perception is reality, and despite announcers' attempts to put over his toughness, the audience at large (who didn't know about his bar wars and wouldn't have given a crap even if they did) never bought it.

Edit: I'll be fair and say 1995 WCW came the closest to utilizing him to his potential, but it took almost a *year* for them to reform and re-build him before he could be realistically portrayed as an invincible badass-type.

[bmfjules]

Jan 28, 2019 1:42:42 GMT -5 petef3 said:

Jan 28, 2019 1:39:22 GMT -5 bmfjules said:

Book Honky in a squash match, then at the last minute, without telling him, send Haku in instead of Local Man #235...

That would be a complete disaster.

I know we all love the "OMG Haku is so tough!!!!1" memes but to the WWF audience (and the WCW audience) he was just a guy. Perception is reality, and despite announcers' attempts to put over his toughness, the audience at large (who didn't know about his bar wars and wouldn't have given a crap even if they did) never bought it.

Edit: I'll be fair and say 1995 WCW came the closest to utilizing him to his potential, but it took almost a *year* for them to reform and re-build him before he could be realistically portrayed as an invincible badass-type.

He can drop the belt to whoever the next day and just fire Honky and never refer to it afterwards on air, but it sends a message to anyone thinking of Alundra Blayze-ing a WWF title in the future. 

[petef3]

Again, the WWF was too protective of their titles to do stupid crap like this. The entire point of the Honky Tonk reign was to build and to build and to make fans practically water their mouths in anticipation of someone beating him decisively. When they blew it off with the Ultimate Warrior it practically made his career.

So they send Haku out--so what? Honky's going to see what the plan is from a mile away and just walk out and take the countout/forfeit. So your sneaky, annoying, pissant heel who's been pissing every fan off since his inception in the company just walks out and that's your blowoff? Announcers ineffectively telling us that he dropped the title to a lower mid-carder who dropped the title to someone else?

Maybe someone can remind me, where was the rash of guys threatening to leave the WWF and take titles with them that we got as a result of Honky's power play? Bret in '91/'92 and then Alundra, who came at a time when the rules had completely changed. That's your list, as best I can tell.

Just Get the the Match in the Ring. Seemed that philosophy did more good than harm in this case. Considering the original plans for WM4 and the following summer, you could say Honky ended up saving Vince and the WWF from themselves, because I find it unfathomable that IC Champion Savage chasing DiBiase with Hogan absent would be 1/10 as compelling as what we got.

[Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)]

Jan 28, 2019 1:39:22 GMT -5 bmfjules said:

Book Honky in a squash match, then at the last minute, without telling him, send Haku in instead of Local Man #235...

Or do it like they did with the U.S. title in WCW

Sasaki had a match with OMG and had OMG win it and them Sasaki win it back except you never air Sasaki winning the title back

[Mozenrath]

Jan 28, 2019 2:03:29 GMT -5 Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) said:

Jan 28, 2019 1:39:22 GMT -5 bmfjules said:

Book Honky in a squash match, then at the last minute, without telling him, send Haku in instead of Local Man #235...

Or do it like they did with the U.S. title in WCW

Sasaki had a match with OMG and had OMG win it and them Sasaki win it back except you never air Sasaki winning the title back

Essentially, yes.

I don't think Honkytonk would have fallen for a Spider-Lady trick, but removing the belt with an editing trick would have been pretty doable.

[cjh]

Ted DiBiase backs up the story in his book, saying he was told Savage had to win at WrestleMania to appease him after HTM refused to drop the IC Championship to him as planned.

[Magnus the Magnificent]

Wouldn't we just get the "Alundra Blayze and the Trashcan" moment and lawsuit 8 years earlier, as the belt was very much the property of WWF?

[petef3]

Probably. But like with Alundra, the damage would probably have already been done.

Here's an alternate idea: instead of playing these dumb games trying to trick Honky into losing, book him to get squashed by the Ultimate Warrior when his run is over with, thus making a new superstar and giving catharsis to everyone Honky had pissed off with his act over the previous 18 months. What do you think? Think it could work?

It should also be clarified that the reason Savage was upset wasn't because he was a belt mark, but because he felt he had done a lot for Honky in letting him be the first heel to put his hands on Elizabeth, and he felt double-crossed that Honky wouldn't put him over decisively.

[Milkman Norm]

The story of Honky talking to Vince a few weeks before The Main Event and telling him he didn't think it was the right time to do the favor and the idea that Honky showed up the night of the show in Indianapolis and refused to put Savage over have been mixed in wrestling lore. It's not like Honky didn't do the favor for the Warrior and put him over huge a few months later, so clearly he knew that he was dropping the belt sooner than later. There is a bit from a KC shoot on youtube with Honky where he explains it. I wouldn't link it do to copyright but anyone who wants to could find it.

[Deleted]

Never let a wrestler take a belt home

[WoodStoner1]

Or you know, ring the effin bell...

[Joe Neglia]

Again, all the stuff about "just send a shooter out there" doesn't even need to happen. Vince didn't have to beat the guy up to take the belt back, he literally just had to let him have another match and have the timekeeper take the belt to the back while HTM is distracted during the match. Boom. Done. Then HTM has no leverage.

HTM shows up on JCP tv with the belt? Yeah, it's the Alundra situation early, but with "Just got our Wrestlemania III money" Vince vs. "Have to sell the company in a year" Crockett, not Ted Turner.

This wasn't just the one show, HTM allegedly balked prior to that as well.

HTM has zero leverage in this situation. How does Vince bend to him? Nothing about that makes sense at all.

Now, I can see HTM hem-hawing a bit and Vince getting a better idea of how to proceed in the meantime. I can buy that. HTM makes his case and Vince realizes he probably has more money in getting Savage straight into the belt instead of chasing DiBiase and reworks his plans. I can buy that. But Vince living in fear that Wayne Ferris was going to show up on Crockett TV with the belt wasn't part of it.

Jan 28, 2019 1:35:02 GMT -5 petef3 said:

"Just get the match in the ring" was a mantra of the McMahons for as long as they promoted. The thing I respect most about WWF booking was they (except in *extremely* rare circumstances, in case anyone even more overcorrective and pedantic than me wants to dig an exception up that I forgot) didn't do stupid BS like phantom title changes, titles being "loaned" or defended on someone else's behalf, getting vacated all the time, forgotten about, etc. Titles were won and lost in the ring, pretty much always. If they were vacated, it was for a specific and often promotion-altering angle or they were left with absolutely no other options. It didn't matter if Dynamite Kid was crippled or if Goldust had blown out his knee and couldn't walk--just get the match in the ring.

So when Honky had them over a barrel before one of the biggest nights in company history in front of a national network TV audience, Vince did what his father taught him to do: just get the match in the ring.

We're talking about a title belt that was first awarded in a phantom match in a phantom tournament on a phantom show in a city, country and entire continent that WWE had never been to at that point. Stating that isn't over-corrective or pedantic.

[petef3]

Well...sort of. It was a continuation-but-not-really of the already-extant WWF North American title. And I still think there's a difference between inaugurating a new title and failing to provide closure to an at-the-time 9- or 10-month title reign that had been headlining your B house shows and drawing well in that spot.

Honky most certainly had leverage--the first prime time network wrestling show in 30 years was on the verge of going off the rails as soon as it began. A shoot incident on live TV could have led to measures as drastic as Dick Ebersol and NBC cutting ties with the WWF entirely.

The stuff about physical possession of the belt is pretty much a red herring anyway. The WWF could have just commissioned a new one--Lord knows that happened plenty of times with the next IC champ. Getting proper closure on the story mattered more.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

I’m conflicted.

On one hand HTM is an admitted liar, on the other one, he has a history of holding up promoters, he did it to Bischoff and got fired because of that.

[J. Hova]

Noted shooter Wayne Ferris. I mean they did screwjobs before and after this, they could have just done that. You have whomever cinch in a small package or just do a fast count and there you go. Or you just take the belt from him while he is in the shower and do the phantom change, fire his ass or starve him, and move on.

[petef3]

Jan 28, 2019 22:06:14 GMT -5 J. Hova said:

Noted shooter Wayne Ferris. I mean they did screwjobs before and after this, they could have just done that. You have whomever cinch in a small package or just do a fast count and there you go. Or you just take the belt from him while he is in the shower and do the phantom change, fire his ass or starve him, and move on.

Or they could have done what they did, which seemed to have worked out pretty well, leading to the biggest money feud in history to that point in Hogan-Savage and making a new top star in the Warrior.

[Milkman Norm]

I kinda think it's less that Wayne had leverage and more that Vince had so many bigger fish to fry (building towards the Main Event, setting up the Mega Powers, WM IV, war with Crockett) that Honky wanting to keep the secondary belt for a few more months was not that big of a deal. I mean had it been the world title I'm sure Vince would have played hardball, like he had with Wendi Richter. But once he knew that he wanted to build towards a heel Savage vs face Hogan program after a turn that slow burn angle took precedence.