I wrote my first wrestling article. Do you agree with it?

[Abdullah]

Feb 4, 2019 12:42:57 GMT -5 Magic knows Black Lives Matter said:

This was hella depressing, lmao. Seems like a feeling of no real opportunity for upward mobility despite working to improve yourself. It's not just a WWE thing either. That's something a lot of folks in the work force can relate to.

I think when I read this, I decided to stop being so reluctant and share my work with you all. I wrote about the very thing that’s being discussed here: the lack of upward mobility.

It’s something I post about a lot. It’s the issue in WWE that most animates me. And while I do think more fans are beginning to agree that the roster in WWE aren’t to blame for many of their misfortunes, there’s still a little bit of reluctance.

Here is the article, if you’d wanna read it yourself. I’d like to thank Final Countdown Jones for helping me out with it as well.

It does use Primo as a framing device to talk about WWE’s larger problems. Here is someone who is either mocked for not being utilized or blamed for it, as if he has much power over either. My contention is that Primo is much like Rusev, like Zack Ryder, like Cesaro, like Kofi Kingston, like so many: WWE decided a spot for him, early on, and nothing would change their minds.

I initially set out to write the article because I sensed there was a willful misconception around Primo. But what I found was that he’s just another symptom of a larger problem. He was a good worker at first. In one of his only singles matches to air on a main brand, an ECW match against Miz in 2009, Meltzer gave it three and a half stars. Columnists went out of their way to praise it at the time. It was just barely over ten minutes.

That didn’t matter to WWE. The original idea that Primo and Epico came up with for Los Matadors didn’t matter to WWE. They saw Primo as either a lower-carder or an outright jobber and they’ve booked him as one for eight of ten years in WWE. He’s not the most tragic example of WWE’s misuse of talent. But he is an example nonetheless.

That doesn’t mean #GivePrimoAChance. But it does mean ‘correct the record and recognize that WWE is not a place where you can correctly evaluate talent.’

It’s definitely a more acceptable claim now than it was even a few years ago. And as much as I wanted to share my work, I also wanted to speak to the revisionist history that occurs whenever WWE gives up on a performer and how fans can forget how little control wrestlers have of their own success.

It’s true for a Rusev. It’s true for a joke like Primo. It’s a company-wide problem.

[Deleted]

Nice article.

WWE (like many other things in the world) is extremely zero-sum. So if they give, like, Seth Rollins a 10-minute promo by himself in the ring, that's 10 minutes that the other 100 or so wrestlers will never get.

So let's say we got a 3 hour RAW, minus around 1 hour for commercials and other stuff like Michael Cole talking, and that leaves approx. 2 hours/120 minutes. Let's say the women get 30 minutes, that leaves 90 minutes that ALL the men have to compete for, including Primo.

So take the men's 90 minutes and I'll do 30 minutes of promos and 60 minutes of matches.

Go with 5 minute promos so that gives 6 promos. So that makes 6 wrestlers get TV time there.

And go with 10 minute matches so that's 6 matches. So that's 12-20 wrestlers there, of which likely all the wrestlers that did promos also had matches, so that means 20 male wrestlers will get used on my hypothetical RAW episode.


Combine this with WWE's poor resource management, and spending bigger loads of resources on a smaller number of main guys, and yeah, unless Primo suddenly became 10x better than Ric Flair overnight he's punching a concrete ceiling, much like many other wrestlers like you said.

[Final Countdown Jones]

You hadn't sent me the revised version based on the notes I'd given you so this was a fresh read in some places, and I've got to say, good job on this. Putting WWE's general lack of commitment to its roster into the new context not of some can't-miss developmental prospect or someone who "has it all" but where even from the top down, someone who could have been a dependable lower card act turned into a total non-entity who can't even get booked by the weird way they've handled the product was an interesting spin.

[Abdullah]

Feb 5, 2019 5:00:34 GMT -5 @exenx17 said:

Nice article.

WWE (like many other things in the world) is extremely zero-sum. So if they give, like, Seth Rollins a 10-minute promo by himself in the ring, that's 10 minutes that the other 100 or so wrestlers will never get.

So let's say we got a 3 hour RAW, minus around 1 hour for commercials and other stuff like Michael Cole talking, and that leaves approx. 2 hours/120 minutes. Let's say the women get 30 minutes, that leaves 90 minutes that ALL the men have to compete for, including Primo.

So take the men's 90 minutes and I'll do 30 minutes of promos and 60 minutes of matches.

Go with 5 minute promos so that gives 6 promos. So that makes 6 wrestlers get TV time there.

And go with 10 minute matches so that's 6 matches. So that's 12-20 wrestlers there, of which likely all the wrestlers that did promos also had matches, so that means 20 male wrestlers will get used on my hypothetical RAW episode.


Combine this with WWE's poor resource management, and spending bigger loads of resources on a smaller number of main guys, and yeah, unless Primo suddenly became 10x better than Ric Flair overnight he's punching a concrete ceiling, much like many other wrestlers like you said.

My inclination is to agree with that, sans caveat, because both of your points are true: some things are zero sum and WWE does suck at time management. But what’s going on feels less like a well-intentioned failure and more like a very deliberate choice.

They’ve literally been running the same three tag teams in a feud for almost a year. They called themselves out on it, more than once, then they went right back to doing it anyway.

I’d be really curious if we’re actually seeing less workers, and less variety of feuds, in the era of the brand split. It’s been feeling that way.

Feb 5, 2019 8:22:15 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

You hadn't sent me the revised version based on the notes I'd given you so this was a fresh read in some places, and I've got to say, good job on this. Putting WWE's general lack of commitment to its roster into the new context not of some can't-miss developmental prospect or someone who "has it all" but where even from the top down, someone who could have been a dependable lower card act turned into a total non-entity who can't even get booked by the weird way they've handled the product was an interesting spin.

This is what gets to me whenever you see people suggesting that the entire lowercard be fired and replaced. I’m not sure what that actually does.

I don’t believe in the idea that any performer is damaged goods. Hawkins looks to be getting his first substantive angle since rejoining WWE and fans are receptive to it. But even if this class of lowercards is as damaged as some fans insist, the same thing is very likely to happen and even has happened to shiny new NXT callups. It’s going to keep happening. We can only hope that some combination of AEW, and the move to FOX, and Vince being busy with the XFL will bring meaningful change.

[rnrk supports BLM]

Hey, somebody writing about Primo! I always liked Primo, even if he never got the chance to do much of anything.

I still think this is, sadly, the only reason he and Epico are still employed:

officialfan.proboards.com/post/12535841/thread

Apr 4, 2016 at 7:58pm Lizuka Was Wrong said:
It baffles me that these two haven't been released yet. Not saying they should be, but how in the hell haven't they been?

Because WWE wants to be able to run shows in Puerto Rico without the risk of one of their wrestlers getting Bruiser Brodyed.

I wish I was joking.

[Hypnosis]

I liked the Primo/AJ Lee pairing on NXT.



By the way, that was a great article which explains a lot of WWE's problems with using their talent.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Feb 5, 2019 15:20:12 GMT -5 Abdullah said:

I’d be really curious if we’re actually seeing less workers, and less variety of feuds, in the era of the brand split. It’s been feeling that way.

My first hunch without digging deeper into statistics would be... Probably, yes. And that would be down to one factor before most others, which is the blowout in actual match time. Look at an average RAW from, like, 2002 compared to one from 2019. There’d likely be a lot of shorter matches featuring more of the roster in a two hour show, compared to fewer, but longer matches featuring a smaller portion of the roster, with a three hour show.

[Abdullah]

Feb 5, 2019 17:15:18 GMT -5 rnrk supports BLM said:

Hey, somebody writing about Primo! I always liked Primo, even if he never got the chance to do much of anything.

I still think this is, sadly, the only reason he and Epico are still employed...

Because WWE wants to be able to run shows in Puerto Rico without the risk of one of their wrestlers getting Bruiser Brodyed.

I wish I was joking.

Epico. The only guy who has been given even less to do than Primo. I actually think Primo’s prospects as a featured lowcarder were somewhat decent until Epico came along. When you two people that company aren’t interested in together, that’s negative interest. That’s pretty much it.

Feb 5, 2019 17:28:43 GMT -5 Hypnosis said:

I liked the Primo/AJ Lee pairing on NXT.



By the way, that was a great article which explains a lot of WWE's problems with using their talent.

Thank you. I loved his pairing with AJ Lee. I had to resist the urge to bring up how they dropped their storyline and later made Eve joke about it; as if they were ashamed a jobber could be linked with a star that ended up so huge.

Feb 5, 2019 17:43:42 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

My first hunch without digging deeper into statistics would be... Probably, yes. And that would be down to one factor before most others, which is the blowout in actual match time. Look at an average RAW from, like, 2002 compared to one from 2019. There’d likely be a lot of shorter matches featuring more of the roster in a two hour show, compared to fewer, but longer matches featuring a smaller portion of the roster, with a three hour show.

I’d be curious to even compare 2009 episodes with a 2019 episode. Or even 2013 compared to now.

Once you think about it, it makes sense that a brand split would mean less time for people. Especially on Smackdown, which has about an hour less than Raw. You only have one chance per week to further storylines so, naturally, you’re going to focus on your prioritized performers.

WWE takes that to the extreme, though.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Feb 5, 2019 23:04:48 GMT -5 Abdullah said:

Feb 5, 2019 17:43:42 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

My first hunch without digging deeper into statistics would be... Probably, yes. And that would be down to one factor before most others, which is the blowout in actual match time. Look at an average RAW from, like, 2002 compared to one from 2019. There’d likely be a lot of shorter matches featuring more of the roster in a two hour show, compared to fewer, but longer matches featuring a smaller portion of the roster, with a three hour show.

I’d be curious to even compare 2009 episodes with a 2019 episode. Or even 2013 compared to now.

Once you think about it, it makes sense that a brand split would mean less time for people. Especially on Smackdown, which has about an hour less than Raw. You only have one chance per week to further storylines so, naturally, you’re going to focus on your prioritized performers.

WWE takes that to the extreme, though.

OK, so I've done some sums, here's what I ended up with comparing two RAWs, one from 2003 and one from 2018:

9/22/2003 RAW (two hours)
Rob Van Dam def. Christian by DQ (4:45)
Mark Henry def. Tommy Dreamer (0:55)
Trish Stratus/Lita def. Molly Holly/Gail Kim (6:59)
The Hurricane/Rosey def. La Resistance (3:56)
Evolution def. Maven/Garrison Cade/Mark Jindrak (7:10)
Goldberg def. Chris Jericho (6:58)

Total Match Time: 30:43 (25.83% of the show)
Average Match Time: 5:07
No. of Talents Used: 20

9/24/2018 RAW (three hours)
Finn Balor def. Jinder Mahal (9:55)
The Riott Squad def. Natalya/Bella Twins (10:30)
Konnor def. Chad Gable (2:35)
Dolph Ziggler/Drew McIntyre def. The Revival (12:30)
Bobby Lashley def. Elias by DQ (13:05)
Nia Jax def. Alicia Fox (2:55)
The Shield def. Baron Corbin/AoP (20:00)

Total Match Time: 1:11:30 (40% of the show)
Average Match Time: 10:13
No. of Talents Used: 24

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Well written article that makes legit points.

[Abdullah]

Feb 6, 2019 3:06:46 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

OK, so I've done some sums, here's what I ended up with comparing two RAWs, one from 2003 and one from 2018:

9/22/2003 RAW (two hours)
Rob Van Dam def. Christian by DQ (4:45)
Mark Henry def. Tommy Dreamer (0:55)
Trish Stratus/Lita def. Molly Holly/Gail Kim (6:59)
The Hurricane/Rosey def. La Resistance (3:56)
Evolution def. Maven/Garrison Cade/Mark Jindrak (7:10)
Goldberg def. Chris Jericho (6:58)

Total Match Time: 30:43 (25.83% of the show)
Average Match Time: 5:07
No. of Talents Used: 20

9/24/2018 RAW (three hours)
Finn Balor def. Jinder Mahal (9:55)
The Riott Squad def. Natalya/Bella Twins (10:30)
Konnor def. Chad Gable (2:35)
Dolph Ziggler/Drew McIntyre def. The Revival (12:30)
Bobby Lashley def. Elias by DQ (13:05)
Nia Jax def. Alicia Fox (2:55)
The Shield def. Baron Corbin/AoP (20:00)

Total Match Time: 1:11:30 (40% of the show)
Average Match Time: 10:13
No. of Talents Used: 24

That's interesting. It definitely seems like the addition of four people is a crapshoot that could go either way, depending on the episodes being selected. It's worth looking into more because the common wisdom tends to be that a brand split inevitably leads to a greater variety of talent being utilized.

Feb 6, 2019 3:55:51 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Well written article that makes legit points.

Thank you. It's a thought I've had in my head for some time but what drove me to finally write it was a comment made by Sean Ross Sapp. He's the guy who used to leak RAW and Smackdown spoilers for Fightful and he's likely in contact with a lot of people backstage. He said, in passing, in one of his writings, that Primo and Epico received numerous opportunities. When I messaged to ask what he meant by that, when I pressed him, this is what he said: "They have rebooted the team, been given a several title runs, multiple gimmicks and none of it worked."

This is a dude who knows more about what goes on in WWE than maybe all of us and yet he somehow believes they've had several title runs when they've only had one. It just goes to show how easy it is for revisionist history, for common wisdom, to set in if it's go unchecked. All it takes is a dozen Twitter users conflating a gimmick change with a push and people accept it as fact.

The danger is that it could happen to anyone. As I said in the piece, it's happening to The Revival to an extent. It could happen to Rusev; where his career is rewritten and he's blamed for stagnating.

And to be honest, as much as I think the backlash against Ziggler, to the extent that there is one, has more to do with him being kind of an annoying person, it's happened to him as well. He just does himself no favors and he has a bigger platform than most to get himself over.

[EoE: Well There's Your Problem]

Feb 6, 2019 9:11:50 GMT -5 Abdullah said:

That's interesting. It definitely seems like the addition of four people is a crapshoot that could go either way, depending on the episodes being selected. It's worth looking into more because the common wisdom tends to be that a brand split inevitably leads to a greater variety of talent being utilized.

Yeah, I think I may need to do a whole month of shows from both years to get a better sample size, but I’ve got way too much on my plate as it is for ANOTHER f***ing project.

[Abdullah]

Feb 6, 2019 9:17:01 GMT -5 EoE: Well There's Your Problem said:

Feb 6, 2019 9:11:50 GMT -5 Abdullah said:

That's interesting. It definitely seems like the addition of four people is a crapshoot that could go either way, depending on the episodes being selected. It's worth looking into more because the common wisdom tends to be that a brand split inevitably leads to a greater variety of talent being utilized.

Yeah, I think I may need to do a whole month of shows from both years to get a better sample size, but I’ve got way too much on my plate as it is for ANOTHER f***ing project.

I've yet to update the 'Hired & Fired' tracker because of real life swooping in. So I feel you there.

[Nr1Humanoid]

I don't know, I didn't read it.