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Post by SparkyPlugg on Feb 24, 2019 3:24:22 GMT -5
The Women’s revolution thing is a joke. Since they started all this there hasn’t been one gravy bowl match.
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Post by Some Guy on Feb 24, 2019 3:42:52 GMT -5
All Japan Women's Wrestling then Joshi has existed in some form for 50 years, and it has never held back shit/fans have always bought into that because of how that wrestling is treated. Vince Sr/Vince Jr basically cost themselves millions upon millions of dollars by embracing the regressive Fabulous Moolah style on/off for over 45 years (they kept the belt on her for 30 f***ing years!) The belt being on her for 30 years is pure kayfabe I know that but it's indicative of her control of the wrestling scene all the same
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
Posts: 24,148
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Post by Bo Rida on Feb 24, 2019 4:53:52 GMT -5
What would really go a long way is if WWE, just once in regards to their history with women’s wrestling, would go... “You know what? You’re right. We f***ed up. In trying to hold on to a pop culture zeitgeist that was becoming more and more irrelevant by the month, we mistreated our women’s division by marginalising our own more talented wrestlers, as well as ignoring those talented wrestlers on the independent circuits of the day, in favour of untrained rookies who were hideously out of their depth, and then further handicapped them by not giving any of them enough opportunities to improve or gain traction within our on-screen product. We didn’t do right by them then, but we are trying to make things right now”. Just say sorry, essentially. What happened happened, they can’t change that. But it’s easier to forgive and move on when they’re being honest about their mistakes than it is when they’re ignoring them and trying to shift the blame. And soon as they admit it, it will be someone who would try to use that against them in a court of law to support what ever claim they have. There's tons of footage from various WWE events that show how they've protayed women. There's tons of wrestler interviews where performers speak about their experiences with the company. WWE simply just can't admit it. Us knowing better us just for us really. Those fluff pieces and revisionist history moment are for the new viewer. We have to hold the bag on this one unfortunately. And the only people they can blame is the fans. They can't blame, the previous boss, because there's only one. The can blame the network and their demands to ensure they the get a return on their investment. They can't blame the shareholders, (my favorite faction). They can't blame competition driving them into being desperate. They are supposed "always know better than us". I'm with you with WWE just needing to own their mistakes. Hell, they can't stop themselves from acting like it's not their fault various things fall flat. Let alone their hand in putting obstacles on their own way. Hmm never thought of the legal issues. Blocking training and setting people up to fail would be bullying over here. In wwe's case you have the even more serious issue of injuries from lack of training. Treating men and women unequally is a potential sexism issue too but there's some leeway in both sports and entertainment. Of course with America's employment laws and the independent contractor bullshit it wouldn't be that clear cut
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Post by Jokaine on Feb 24, 2019 8:31:18 GMT -5
I just don't know how people in the United States can say that Paige is completely wrong with her statements. There is simply too much evidence to support the idea that sports fans don't take women performing in "men's" sports seriously.
Despite the occasional mainstream star, it wasn't until the rise of Serena Williams that a woman became the biggest star in tennis. If I recall, she was the first to play in a Wimbledon final that "headlined" the event. Also, I'd like to estimate that her look and fashion (in addition to her male-rivaling serve speed) have helped her. If she looked like Martina Navratilova there is a chance she doesn't make the money she does.
The only reason the WNBA is in business is because it is funded by the NBA and serves as a tax write-off for some NBA owners. That said, Skyler Diggins is pretty much the only women's ball player who has ever made legit endorsement money. I'm sure that is helped by the fact that she is runway-ready at all times and gained a bunch of attention with Weezy sweating her so hard at one point.
It took a globally-dominant women's team in a sport men suck at (soccer) as well as Brandy Chastain coming out of her shirt for women to surpass they their male counterparts.
Is it the fault of of promoters that the only two women in combat sports to achieve true mainstream notoriety and male-money are Laila Ali and Ronda Rousey? Or is it the fault of the American sports fan who would rather watch two dudes fight?
Women's volleyball is arguably the most TV-friendly sport in the world. Attractive, athletic women dressed in aesthetically-appealing uniforms competing on a court that fits perfectly into a widescreen TV and doing so in a more exciting manner than the men. I say all that to acknowledge that more people still know who Karch Kiraly. Hell, Winifer Fernandez in 2016 became the most notable women's volleyball player in my lifetime. If unfamiliar, Google her and you'll find more evidence to my point.
I say all of this to support the idea that WWE was giving fans what they wanted and not forcing something on them back then that they had no interest in getting behind. WWE is able to push women now because they have something to push that fans will support: a division full of attractive, athletic and visually-appealing women who are good in the ring. Reality is, WWE has never had a that.
Trish is an icon of women's wrestling. In truth, Alicia Fox is better in the ring than she was in her prime.
To be clear, this is in no way saying Vince couldn't have made moves over the years to build the women's division sooner, but to simply say there is plenty of historical evidence to support the ideas that fans would not have accepted it until the perfect storm came along.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 24, 2019 13:40:12 GMT -5
I just don't know how people in the United States can say that Paige is completely wrong with her statements. There is simply too much evidence to support the idea that sports fans don't take women performing in "men's" sports seriously. Despite the occasional mainstream star, it wasn't until the rise of Serena Williams that a woman became the biggest star in tennis. If I recall, she was the first to play in a Wimbledon final that "headlined" the event. Also, I'd like to estimate that her look and fashion (in addition to her male-rivaling serve speed) have helped her. If she looked like Martina Navratilova there is a chance she doesn't make the money she does. The only reason the WNBA is in business is because it is funded by the NBA and serves as a tax write-off for some NBA owners. That said, Skyler Diggins is pretty much the only women's ball player who has ever made legit endorsement money. I'm sure that is helped by the fact that she is runway-ready at all times and gained a bunch of attention with Weezy sweating her so hard at one point. It took a globally-dominant women's team in a sport men suck at (soccer) as well as Brandy Chastain coming out of her shirt for women to surpass they their male counterparts. Is it the fault of of promoters that the only two women in combat sports to achieve true mainstream notoriety and male-money are Laila Ali and Ronda Rousey? Or is it the fault of the American sports fan who would rather watch two dudes fight? Women's volleyball is arguably the most TV-friendly sport in the world. Attractive, athletic women dressed in aesthetically-appealing uniforms competing on a court that fits perfectly into a widescreen TV and doing so in a more exciting manner than the men. I say all that to acknowledge that more people still know who Karch Kiraly. Hell, Winifer Fernandez in 2016 became the most notable women's volleyball player in my lifetime. If unfamiliar, Google her and you'll find more evidence to my point. I say all of this to support the idea that WWE was giving fans what they wanted and not forcing something on them back then that they had no interest in getting behind. WWE is able to push women now because they have something to push that fans will support: a division full of attractive, athletic and visually-appealing women who are good in the ring. Reality is, WWE has never had a that. Trish is an icon of women's wrestling. In truth, Alicia Fox is better in the ring than she was in her prime. To be clear, this is in no way saying Vince couldn't have made moves over the years to build the women's division sooner, but to simply say there is plenty of historical evidence to support the ideas that fans would not have accepted it until the perfect storm came along. Wrestling isn't a sport. A better comparison would be women in movies and TV shows since WWE considers itself in the same industry. Female characters have been taken seriously and been able to carry franchises and properties, but WWE simply didn't want to do it until just a few years ago. Nothing to do with fans, everything to do with WWE's own decisions.
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Post by abjordans on Feb 24, 2019 14:14:04 GMT -5
I think it is messed up Paige got all this heat for this comment. When the people said they wanted women’s wrestling, women’s wrestling is what they got. It is going to main event Mania this year. There was no market place for it, people really didn’t want it.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 24, 2019 14:25:41 GMT -5
I think it is messed up Paige got all this heat for this comment. When the people said they wanted women’s wrestling, women’s wrestling is what they got. It is going to main event Mania this year. There was no market place for it, people really didn’t want it. WWE never offered it. They are content to try to force feed the fans what they don't want so the idea that WWE would have been responsive if only the fans had wanted something is just irrational. She's getting heat because her comments are yet another example of WWE trying to place responsibility for their own failings on the fans.
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Post by RedSmile on Feb 24, 2019 14:53:59 GMT -5
So, was it the fans' fault when the Glamour Girls/Jumping Bomb Angels OG tag title feud was sabatoged by Moolah, prevented them from having a high profile stage Wrestlemania V, and set women's wrestling back 20+ years???
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Post by Jokaine on Feb 24, 2019 15:08:21 GMT -5
I just don't know how people in the United States can say that Paige is completely wrong with her statements. There is simply too much evidence to support the idea that sports fans don't take women performing in "men's" sports seriously. Despite the occasional mainstream star, it wasn't until the rise of Serena Williams that a woman became the biggest star in tennis. If I recall, she was the first to play in a Wimbledon final that "headlined" the event. Also, I'd like to estimate that her look and fashion (in addition to her male-rivaling serve speed) have helped her. If she looked like Martina Navratilova there is a chance she doesn't make the money she does. The only reason the WNBA is in business is because it is funded by the NBA and serves as a tax write-off for some NBA owners. That said, Skyler Diggins is pretty much the only women's ball player who has ever made legit endorsement money. I'm sure that is helped by the fact that she is runway-ready at all times and gained a bunch of attention with Weezy sweating her so hard at one point. It took a globally-dominant women's team in a sport men suck at (soccer) as well as Brandy Chastain coming out of her shirt for women to surpass they their male counterparts. Is it the fault of of promoters that the only two women in combat sports to achieve true mainstream notoriety and male-money are Laila Ali and Ronda Rousey? Or is it the fault of the American sports fan who would rather watch two dudes fight? Women's volleyball is arguably the most TV-friendly sport in the world. Attractive, athletic women dressed in aesthetically-appealing uniforms competing on a court that fits perfectly into a widescreen TV and doing so in a more exciting manner than the men. I say all that to acknowledge that more people still know who Karch Kiraly. Hell, Winifer Fernandez in 2016 became the most notable women's volleyball player in my lifetime. If unfamiliar, Google her and you'll find more evidence to my point. I say all of this to support the idea that WWE was giving fans what they wanted and not forcing something on them back then that they had no interest in getting behind. WWE is able to push women now because they have something to push that fans will support: a division full of attractive, athletic and visually-appealing women who are good in the ring. Reality is, WWE has never had a that. Trish is an icon of women's wrestling. In truth, Alicia Fox is better in the ring than she was in her prime. To be clear, this is in no way saying Vince couldn't have made moves over the years to build the women's division sooner, but to simply say there is plenty of historical evidence to support the ideas that fans would not have accepted it until the perfect storm came along. Wrestling isn't a sport. A better comparison would be women in movies and TV shows since WWE considers itself in the same industry. Female characters have been taken seriously and been able to carry franchises and properties, but WWE simply didn't want to do it until just a few years ago. Nothing to do with fans, everything to do with WWE's own decisions. WWE bills itself as sports entertainment and it gets coverage on the websites of ESPN, Sports Illustrated and CBS Sports. That makes it a better comparison than movies and TV, especially when acting has never been seen as something that was done better by men. Lead roles in action movies, true enough, but not overall acting. By the way, I completely disagree with the idea. I love watching sports regardless of the gender playing them.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 24, 2019 15:14:13 GMT -5
Wrestling isn't a sport. A better comparison would be women in movies and TV shows since WWE considers itself in the same industry. Female characters have been taken seriously and been able to carry franchises and properties, but WWE simply didn't want to do it until just a few years ago. Nothing to do with fans, everything to do with WWE's own decisions. WWE bills itself as sports entertainment and it gets coverage on the websites of ESPN, Sports Illustrated and CBS Sports. That makes it a better comparison than movies and TV, especially when acting has never been seen as something that was done better by men. Lead roles in action movies, true enough, but not overall acting. By the way, I completely disagree with the idea. I love watching sports regardless of the gender playing them. It doesn't matter who covers them, They are not a sport, and even if they were, they are far behind real sport when it comes to featuring women, and this is entirely their fault. WWE controls every aspect of what is featured on their programming. They decide who gets pushed, who gets buried, who wins and who loses. They will openly ignore and disregard the fans when they feel like it. They are responsible for everything.
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Post by Jokaine on Feb 24, 2019 15:17:22 GMT -5
I think it is messed up Paige got all this heat for this comment. When the people said they wanted women’s wrestling, women’s wrestling is what they got. It is going to main event Mania this year. There was no market place for it, people really didn’t want it. WWE never offered it. They are content to try to force feed the fans what they don't want so the idea that WWE would have been responsive if only the fans had wanted something is just irrational. She's getting heat because her comments are yet another example of WWE trying to place responsibility for their own failings on the fans. It's not WWE's failing that a great deal of the American people, especially wrestling fans, are backward as hell. Think about it. Zeb Coulter and Jack Swagger got over (as in cheered and sing alongs, not heel heart) by playing xenophobic racists. Finally, I'll go back to the original point I made, which you ignored: WWE pushed women to the forefront of their programming once they were able to develop a roster full of visually-appealing, talented women. Prior to the past couple years they have never had that. The elephant in the room, also, is that Ronda Rousey's success in UFC probably lent credence to the idea that women could draw money.
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DragonMasterP
King Koopa
I'd change my avatar, but beardless Luke Harper is too funny.
Posts: 12,016
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Post by DragonMasterP on Feb 24, 2019 15:21:05 GMT -5
What would really go a long way is if WWE, just once in regards to their history with women’s wrestling, would go... “You know what? You’re right. We f***ed up. In trying to hold on to a pop culture zeitgeist that was becoming more and more irrelevant by the month, we mistreated our women’s division by marginalising our own more talented wrestlers, as well as ignoring those talented wrestlers on the independent circuits of the day, in favour of untrained rookies who were hideously out of their depth, and then further handicapped them by not giving any of them enough opportunities to improve or gain traction within our on-screen product. We didn’t do right by them then, but we are trying to make things right now”. Just say sorry, essentially. What happened happened, they can’t change that. But it’s easier to forgive and move on when they’re being honest about their mistakes than it is when they’re ignoring them and trying to shift the blame. The problem, of course, would be that doing that would require Vince putting his ego aside and showing a little humility, but apparently that’s too much to ask for.
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Post by Jokaine on Feb 24, 2019 15:25:34 GMT -5
WWE bills itself as sports entertainment and it gets coverage on the websites of ESPN, Sports Illustrated and CBS Sports. That makes it a better comparison than movies and TV, especially when acting has never been seen as something that was done better by men. Lead roles in action movies, true enough, but not overall acting. By the way, I completely disagree with the idea. I love watching sports regardless of the gender playing them. It doesn't matter who covers them, They are not a sport, and even if they were, they are far behind real sport when it comes to featuring women, and this is entirely their fault. WWE controls every aspect of what is featured on their programming. They decide who gets pushed, who gets buried, who wins and who loses. They will openly ignore and disregard the fans when they feel like it. They are responsible for everything. They're not, though. I would venture a guess that Trish Stratus made more money the year of her Mania match with Mickie James than almost any female athlete in the U.S. that year. There is a reason women's basketball players go overseas to get paid. There's a reason Olympic stars like Domonique Dawes and Shannon Miller got jobs after being on cereal boxes. History just doesn't support what you're arguing. Also, the point about they ignore fans want to push isn't always true. Roman Reigns got booed out buildings but taking him out of the main event or having him lose didn't change anything. Fans started cheering the Shield so they turned them face. Fans bought into Daniel Bryan, they had him single-handedly go over Evolution at WM XXX. Fans bought into Braun and they made him a focal point. Fans bought into Becky Lynch they've pushed her like Steve Austin. Just because WWE didn't make Rusev the new Rock doesn't mean they always ignore what fans want.
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TGM
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,073
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Post by TGM on Feb 24, 2019 15:48:14 GMT -5
WWE also buries Zack Ryder and gave us Jinder Mahal as WWE champion, so ya know.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 24, 2019 15:57:30 GMT -5
"It's not WWE's failing that a great deal of the American people, especially wrestling fans, are backward as hell.
Think about it. Zeb Coulter and Jack Swagger got over (as in cheered and sing alongs, not heel heart) by playing xenophobic racists"
They were too comical to be taken seriously as heels.
"Finally, I'll go back to the original point I made, which you ignored:
WWE pushed women to the forefront of their programming once they were able to develop a roster full of visually-appealing, talented women. Prior to the past couple years they have never had that. The elephant in the room, also, is that Ronda Rousey's success in UFC probably lent credence to the idea that women could draw money"
I didn't ignore your point. Your point is simply self evidently false. There have always been talented women in wrestling. WWE simply chose to not hire them in favour of tits and ass.
"They're not, though. I would venture a guess that Trish Stratus made more money the year of her Mania match with Mickie James than almost any female athlete in the U.S. that year"
I can almost hear Venus and Serena laughing hysterically.
"Also, the point about they ignore fans want to push isn't always true. Roman Reigns got booed out buildings but taking him out of the main event or having him lose didn't change anything
Fans started cheering the Shield so they turned them face.
Fans bought into Daniel Bryan, they had him single-handedly go over Evolution at WM XXX.
Fans bought into Braun and they made him a focal point"
Fans bought into Becky Lynch they've pushed her like Steve Austin.
Just because WWE didn't make Rusev the new Rock doesn't mean they always ignore what fans want"
These are satirical posts, right?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2019 15:58:00 GMT -5
WWE bills itself as sports entertainment and it gets coverage on the websites of ESPN, Sports Illustrated and CBS Sports. That makes it a better comparison than movies and TV, especially when acting has never been seen as something that was done better by men. Lead roles in action movies, true enough, but not overall acting. By the way, I completely disagree with the idea. I love watching sports regardless of the gender playing them. It doesn't matter who covers them, They are not a sport, and even if they were, they are far behind real sport when it comes to featuring women, and this is entirely their fault. WWE controls every aspect of what is featured on their programming. They decide who gets pushed, who gets buried, who wins and who loses. They will openly ignore and disregard the fans when they feel like it. They are responsible for everything. Neither pop culture or sports have really been kind to women throughout history though. That tide's only been starting to turn in recent years. WWE were definitely behind the times as things have been changing, and yes, the fan base's opinion on women wrestlers has mostly been dictated by WWE's booking of them, but if we're pointing fingers I think it's valid to point at both sides, not in like a shame, SHAME kind of thing but wrestling just was what it was and I think everyone kind of got complacent about the role of women in it. Just wasn't heavy on anyone's minds. "Give Divas a Chance" is something that could've happened a long time ago. WWE largely booked their women to serve their demographic and it worked for the time. There wasn't a high demand for them to be anything more than eye candy most of the time. When women like Natalya, Emma, Paige and the Horsewomen came around they had to put the work in to convince management and fans that womens wrestling had a place in the WWE and snap everyone out of their old habits.
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Post by Hit Girl on Feb 24, 2019 16:01:16 GMT -5
It doesn't matter who covers them, They are not a sport, and even if they were, they are far behind real sport when it comes to featuring women, and this is entirely their fault. WWE controls every aspect of what is featured on their programming. They decide who gets pushed, who gets buried, who wins and who loses. They will openly ignore and disregard the fans when they feel like it. They are responsible for everything. Neither pop culture or sports have really been kind to women throughout history though. That tide's only been starting to turn in recent years. WWE were definitely behind the times as things have been changing, and yes, the fan base's opinion on women wrestlers has mostly been dictated by WWE's booking of them, but if we're pointing fingers I think it's valid to point at both sides, not in like a shame, SHAME kind of thing but wrestling just was what it was and I think everyone kind of got complacent about the role of women in it. Just wasn't heavy on anyone's minds. "Give Divas a Chance" is something that could've happened a long time ago. WWE largely booked their women to serve their demographic and it worked for the time. There wasn't a high demand for them to be anything more than eye candy most of the time. When women like Natalya, Emma, Paige and the Horsewomen came around they had to put the work in to convince management and fans that womens wrestling had a place in the WWE and snap everyone out of their old habits. Women are doing fine in pop culture. Plenty of shows and film series were led by women, even during the Attitude Era like Buffy. WWE could have given women a chance years ago. WWE booked their women to serve their own kinks and fetishes. Chyna was instantly accepted as a fearsome bodyguard. No one chanted to see her puppies.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Feb 24, 2019 16:11:43 GMT -5
Neither pop culture or sports have really been kind to women throughout history though. That tide's only been starting to turn in recent years. WWE were definitely behind the times as things have been changing, and yes, the fan base's opinion on women wrestlers has mostly been dictated by WWE's booking of them, but if we're pointing fingers I think it's valid to point at both sides, not in like a shame, SHAME kind of thing but wrestling just was what it was and I think everyone kind of got complacent about the role of women in it. Just wasn't heavy on anyone's minds. "Give Divas a Chance" is something that could've happened a long time ago. WWE largely booked their women to serve their demographic and it worked for the time. There wasn't a high demand for them to be anything more than eye candy most of the time. When women like Natalya, Emma, Paige and the Horsewomen came around they had to put the work in to convince management and fans that womens wrestling had a place in the WWE and snap everyone out of their old habits. Women are doing fine in pop culture. Plenty of shows and film series were led by women, even during the Attitude Era like Buffy. WWE could have given women a chance years ago. WWE booked their women to serve their own kinks and fetishes. Chyna was instantly accepted as a fearsome bodyguard. No one chanted to see her puppies. it also ignores things like Shimmer has been a successful wrestling company in America since 2005. TNA's Knockouts for the short amount of time they were taken seriously were literally the highest rated segments on their shows. CHIKARA and other big indy feds treated women seriously and in some cases flat out had integrated rosters pretty much since inception. It comes down to what I said earlier... until recently the WWE didn't treat the women like they mattered so the audience acted like they didn't matter. It's what happened to things like the Mid/lower/cruiserweight divisions in the WWE too. If 20 years ago the WWE decided they would treat the women seriously the crowd would have come around too.
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,317
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Post by Woo on Feb 24, 2019 16:15:44 GMT -5
Let's see. Mildred Burke pioneers women's wrestling, becoming a big star in Japan too and kicking off the Joshi scene. The WWE instead back Moolah who couldn't work at all, but did have lots of women she was all too happy to pimp and exploit.
Wendi Witcher was one of the main draws of Wrestlemania and the second biggest face. She ends up getting screwed over by the WWE and Moolah.
The Jumping Bomb Angels being very over. The WWE axe them and drop women's wrestling altogether. Japan meanwhile are able to sell out massive stadiums full of nothing but women's wrestling, for several different companies. The Crush Girls become massive mainstream stars, even getting pop records. They also get so many five star match reviews, put on possibly the greatest wrestling show of all time too.
Alundra Blaze who had been working Japan is brought in and with her feuds with fellow Joshi stars Bull Nakano and Aja Kong becomes massively over with fans, getting a great reaction and a great match at Summerslam 94. Despite being the top female star they release her due to financial troubles deeming her expendable. Even though she's the champion. They axe the entire division then get angry when she drops the title they deemed worthless in a bin on WCW TV. Idiots.
Then they treat women like crap from here on out. Luna makes Sable look great at Wrestlemania so they decide to push Sable instead. Then they hire women like Kat, Terri, BB and other models and focus on T&A. They do get another huge female star in Chyna, but she leaves not wanting to be part of a women's division that has been treated like crap.
In 2002-2003 they have eight women who range from either great to good - Molly, Ivory, Jazz, Trish, Lita, Jacqueline, Victoria and Gail. They could have built a great division around those eight but instead they focused on bra and panties matches, models like Stacey and Torrie and gave the latter a feud with valet Dawn Marie so they could do a tasteless lesbian angle. Then Dawn went and got pregnant and was congratulated by being shown the exit. The commentators mocked Molly for being fat, even though she wasn't, Victoria had her character changed because they didn't want to pay the rights to get her music and she devolved into part of Torrie's harem, Lita was slut shamed and the rest besides Trish were slowly phased out.
Even with those eight wrestlers and a couple more decent ones like Mickie and Melina they were still treated like two minute bathroom break segments and made to wrestle in gravy and pudding. The feuds also focused on bitchy highschool drama crap and and more fat shaming and lesbian pollen crap. Playboy then became a thing with the Wrestlemania feuds becoming about who's starring in Playboy that year. Johnny Ace said once that if the women aren't hot enough for Playboy they aren't hot enough for WWE. And he was in charge of hiring for God's sake.
So rather then hire actual wrestlers they did Diva Search contests to find models or just skipped the middle man altogether and hired models off the TV like Candice Michelle, who while like some of the Diva Search girls she became competent it was still far poorer than what was going on outside WWE.
While the Japan scene had long fallen from what it once was there was still several companies putting on great women's wrestling. A lot of the big names were still there like Aja Kong, Toyota, the Inoues, Ozaki, Kansai etc and the new generation of Ayako Hamada, Momoe Nakanishi, Nanae Takahashi, Emi Sakura and the gaijin Amazing Kong were giving fantastic matches and proving that Joshi was still alive and well.
Meanwhile there was quite a few women in the US and Canada that had been inspired by the Joshi scene and had started to get very good. Sara Del Rey, Allion Danger, MsChif, Cheerleader Melissa, Beth Phoenix, Lacey and Rain, Ariel, Nikki Roxx, Tiana Ringer, Shantelle Taylor and Mercedes Martinez amongst others were putting on really good matches on various small companies here and there. Promoter Dave Praazak gathered several of them under one roof for his Volcano Girls shows and after they were deemed a success he launched Shimmer.
Shimmer Volumes 1 and 2, filmed on the same day in 2005, sent out a statement of intent. Allison Danger cuts a fiery promo in direct response to the WWE's misuse of women wrestling and says that on that night they proved that American Wrestling was possible. Volume 1 proved that with three great matches between Mellissa/MsChif, Lacey/Haze and especially the excellent twenty minute draw between Sara Del Rey and Mercedes Martinez that put Shimmer on the map.
The WWE then hired Krissy Vaine and Beth Phoenix, the two Shimmer stars who best fitted their blonde, big breastfed template. Phoenix went on to have a great HOF career but she was never allowed to show as much character as she did in her two Shimmer matches. Vaine briefly made TV before being released.
Shimmer responded to that loss by hiring a new wrestler from Ireland- Rebecca Knox or as you know her as- Becky Lynch. She nearly didn't make it though as Volumes 3 and 4 were unwisely taped in the winter (for the first and last time) and a snowstorm meant that Lacey, Martinez and Ariel couldn't make it and Becky only arrived when Volume 4 was underway and quickly had to do two matches for the show. Nonetheless Becky stole the show over these Volumes. Here we are 14 years later and she's now the biggest star in the WWE.
I think it's kind of sad that it took Becky so long to make it as an injury briefly retired her for eight years or so. But then look at how WWE treated another great Shimmer wrestler from the British Isles Nikita/Katie Lea with Vince finally starting his dream incest gimmick with her or how they gave Natalya a farting gimmick. Becky, despite being one of the best female talents in the world (her 2005-2006 stuff still blows me away) would have been ruined had she gone to the WWE so early. Thankfully she was young enough to wait for the WWE to take women seriously unlike many of the greats that retired first like Haze, Lacey and MsChif.
Paige can blabber all she wants about the fans being to blame but even TNA were doing women's wrestling right in 2008 and 9 and they were getting great reactions from the fans and getting the highest ratings. Gail Kim proved she deserved more than the WWE gave her and TNA turned to Shimmer to build their roster hiring Kong, Nikki Roxx/Roxxi, Shantelle Taylor, Josie/Bolt (hey, not all Shimmer girls were good!), Hamada, Sarita/Sarah Stock, Ashley Lane/Madison Rayne, Cheerleader Melissa, Daffney and a few more indie girls like ODB and The Beautiful People. It was great for a while, but TNA TNA'd it. Daffney was injured and screwed over, Roxxi was fired on live TV and Taylor was getting paid so little she had to get a retail job.
Meanwhile in WWE Trish retired in a beautiful send off, Lita followed the next month but was slutshamed out the door. Brilliant. Victoria meanwhile retired on Smackdown and had her farewell speech cut out off the broadcast. Jazz meanwhile was back on the indies having an excellent feud with Mercedes Martinez culminating in a sixty+ minute ironwoman match. Sigh. What could have been.
Shimmer was still gong strong now hiring women from around the world with fans likewise flying to Chicago from Germany, the UK, Canada and the Netherlands twice a year to see the best women in the world. From Japan they had the new breed of Joshi stars like Ayumi Kurihara, Tomoko Nakagawa, Hiroyo Matsumoto, Misaki Ohata and later Kana/WWE's Asuka. From Australia we had Madison Eagles, who like Becky Lynch and Sarah Stock before her completely raised the standard of wrestling on the show with the Joshi girls doing the same.
The Ilconics, Tenille/Emma and Kellie Skater also arrived around the same time to Shimmer from Australia, Evie/Dakota Kai came from NZ, Wesna Busic from Croatia The Canadian Ninjas, Lufisto, Sarah Stock, Mia Yim and Courtney Rush/TNA's Rosemary from Canada and Paige and Saraya Knight arrived from the UK like a tornado complete with a shocking return of their manager Becky Lynch. Combine them with the American women like Athena/Ember Moon, Kimber Lee, Davina Rose/Bayley and Hailey Hatred on the rise and this was peak Shimmer.
The WWE in one of the best decisions they ever made hired Sara Del Rey as a road agent. It sadly ended a legendary in ring career and killed one of the best angles in Shimmer history, but oh well, it was a good move. Former indie worker AJ Lee had become a breakout star in the WWE around this time and she was actually a great worker also. The WWE had tried to make her more of an an authority figure or a valet than a wrestler and focus on the Bella twins but it was around this time that the fans had enough.
The WWE had hired Paige unsurprisingly but also Becky Lynch who seemingly announced she was unretiring and immediately got signed and Bayley who I think we can thank Del Rey's hiring or Johnny Ace's departure for as she didn't fit their usual blonde barbie type. Long-time wrestling fan Sasha Banks and Ric Flair's daughter Charlotte also got signed and were about to blow up.
Maybe it was non-WWE wrestling getting more popular, maybe it was TNA's KO division, indie companies doing intergender matches very well, maybe it was the rise of female MMA fighters or perhaps the NXT matches with Paige, Emma, Charlotte and Nattie but the fans made it clear they weren't satisfied with what they had been given for the last decade. #GiveDivasaChance started trending and the tide changed completely. AJ Lee publicly mocked Stephanie McMahon on Twitter and the WWE listened, but they had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do so and it was only with the rise of Charlotte, Sasha, Bayley and Becky that they did.
Paige and Stephanie may try to paint the fans as the enemy, but no. The WWE, Vince and Steph had zero respect for women. They could have started this revolution a decade ago with Daizee Haze, Lacey, Melissa, MsChif etc etc but instead we have a whole forgotten generation of women who paved the way for this revolution that the WWE missed out on. That wasn't on the fans, that was because of the WWE.
The only reason Shimmer started was as a rebuttal to the WWE's mistreatment of women, a way to say "despite what you see on TV, we can wrestle too." For my money it is one of the most influential companies of modern times, but it wouldn't have needed to start in the first place and we wouldn't have needed a revolution if the WWE hadn't poisoned fans minds so much that the idea of women wrestling well became such a shock.
You book women as real humans now, well done WWE, pat yourself on the back, but that doesn't absolve you of your disgusting past.
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Post by Jokaine on Feb 24, 2019 16:28:49 GMT -5
Women are doing fine in pop culture. Plenty of shows and film series were led by women, even during the Attitude Era like Buffy. WWE could have given women a chance years ago. WWE booked their women to serve their own kinks and fetishes. Chyna was instantly accepted as a fearsome bodyguard. No one chanted to see her puppies. it also ignores things like Shimmer has been a successful wrestling company in America since 2005. TNA's Knockouts for the short amount of time they were taken seriously were literally the highest rated segments on their shows. CHIKARA and other big indy feds treated women seriously and in some cases flat out had integrated rosters pretty much since inception. It comes down to what I said earlier... until recently the WWE didn't treat the women like they mattered so the audience acted like they didn't matter. It's what happened to things like the Mid/lower/cruiserweight divisions in the WWE too. If 20 years ago the WWE decided they would treat the women seriously the crowd would have come around too. Shimmer has averaged 7.5 cards a year since its inception. I found attendance from shows 3 years into their existence showing 80 people. The largest count I found for my show at the venue that operate in was 435 (which was not for a Shimmer show, by the way). TNA did get hot for a moment with the Kong-Kim feud. That was two people, however, not an entire division. That's been my point this whole time. Once WWE had a division of marketable, talented women they pushed them. To call Chikara a big indy is ridiculous. There are a few major indies in the United States and Chikara is most certainly not among them.
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