Abdullah
Hank Scorpio
Thank you, Ishmeal Loves Bayley!
Posts: 6,421
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Post by Abdullah on Mar 21, 2019 6:35:36 GMT -5
We're so worried about the week to week developments and that's understandable given WWE's lack of goodwill. But look. I think Wrestlemania is two episodes away. Kofi won't be on Raw where the really awful developments happen. Kofi has only had this push for a little over a month, as @kn continues to correctly point out.
The storyline that's happening around Kofi, right now, is remarkable. A few weeks ago, Kofi told Vince to his face that 'people like me don't get to champion' and Vince answered with this sadly hilarious expression like, 'well... it hurts my feelings that you would say that out loud but you're not wrong.' And that was just the beginning. This week, we've had Big E talking about what a falsehood meritocracy is and being twice as good for half as much.
Both Vince and New Day are doing great, subtle work. It's important, in my view, that Vince doesn't descend into being some cartoonish racist. I really liked his promo with New Day a couple weeks ago - he was calm, complimentary and sympathetic while still keeping the glass ceiling in place. And I liked, even more, New Day's responses. They're not attacking Vince. Maybe it's because black people can't afford to show the level of anger that the likes of Stone Cold, CM Punk, and Becky Lynch showed so freely. It's also probably because they've faced this kind of thing before and they know better than to fight against it.
The storyline has stumbles. But the idea of 'Daniel Brayn's rise mirrored + institutional racism' is tremendous. They just need to drive it home a little more and they've got two weeks to do just that.
This is before you even get to the non-kayfabe aspects. - WWE are writing this storyline. How much do they agree that there's an element of truth to it? - New Day are the actors in this storyline. Do they, including Woods who has rigorously defended WWE in the past, see truth in it? - If they do, is this storyline a way to acknowledge fault?
And if they don't genuinely see fault, then... what? Will The Rock continue to be used as a cudgel to silence all other minorities that haven't risen to the top? Kofi has been pigeonholed into the midcard/upper-midcard. He's not alone in that. As I've argued, as has become increasingly difficult to argue against, everyone in WWE is assigned a role on the main roster upon being called up. While a worthy performer might be rewarded with more TV time, they don't move up the card. Things tend to be awfully fixed.
To make matters worse for people of color, for people that aren't from America, they're rarely assigned to the top of the card. Main-eventers don't look like Kofi, they don't look like Asuka (who has spent many weeks of her title reign off TV), they don't look like Nakamura or Rusev or Andrade.
That is absolutely the fault of WWE. But I think it's fascinating that they're drawing attention to it. I think, in the era where 'Green Book' gets to win an Oscar, WWE deserve credit for making their biases the focus of a storyline.
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Post by The Heartbreak TWERK on Mar 21, 2019 7:02:33 GMT -5
I get the feeling that if fans actively chanted “You Are Racists” whenever Vince or insert authority figure here was out there skirting the line, they’d back down from this kinda stuff real quick.
Probably could get a lot of changes made if they could get more clever about their chants.
But we can just stick to “You Deserve It” and “What”, I guess.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 7:09:56 GMT -5
The company has been racist for over 30 years. Like “hiding in plain sight” kind of racist. They won’t come out and say it but they’ve done more than enough to prove it. At this point it is what it is. Fans either overlook it because they like wrestling or I’m sure some fans are racist themselves so they identify with it (ex. The WWE could get live crowds to boo Middle Eastern characters in a split second).
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Mar 21, 2019 7:45:48 GMT -5
Perhaps Kofi can take a finisher and get pinned 20 seconds later at ‘Mania to cap the storyline.
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Post by realist on Mar 21, 2019 7:59:24 GMT -5
You know what? I'm actually really enjoying this story so far. It is being handled well and is actually topical, with just enough subtlety and sensitivity without coming across as forced or heavy handed, which is not always something that WWE is capable of pulling off. Years ago, Vince McMahon would have come out to the ring wearing a white sheet, dropped N-words, and had the cops beat up New Day. Now, they are all playing it just right. Major kudos to WWE, Vince McMahon, New Day, and Daniel Bryan. Every single one of them have been pitch perfect so far.
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Sparkybob
King Koopa
I have a status?
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Post by Sparkybob on Mar 21, 2019 8:21:58 GMT -5
I mean Vince said the N word on TV so it's not like Vince cares too much about that public perception.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 8:42:17 GMT -5
I mean Vince said the N word on TV so it's not like Vince cares too much about that public perception. That was a comedy skit that was not meant to be malicious, despite being unfunny. It is not the same thing as what Hulk Hogan said in private.
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Post by KobashiChop on Mar 21, 2019 8:44:33 GMT -5
The company on TV is as much a kayfabed character as any wrestler. Mr McMahon, the Authority, Baron Corbin. Every heel authority figure ever is there to represent what management wants.
So yeah considering that the fans have latched on to it for years (3 time former World Champ CM Punk being held down prior to 2011, Daniel Bryan, Stone Cold, Becky Lynch) it's just a go to for the compwnys bookers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 8:45:11 GMT -5
It seems like they're backing themselves in a corner where Kofi will have to win the title to demonstrate that the racism storyline is just a storyline and racist Vince is just a character.
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Post by realist on Mar 21, 2019 8:46:38 GMT -5
I mean Vince said the N word on TV so it's not like Vince cares too much about that public perception. That was a comedy skit that was not meant to be malicious, despite being unfunny. It is not the same thing as what Hulk Hogan said in private. This!!! That "Vince said it on TV once" thing is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen. It was just a part of a stupid backstage skit designed to make Vince McMahon look like an out of touch old white guy who thought he was cool. It has never and should never be said on television for heat or anything like that. In the words of Eric Bischoff, "context is king."
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Rican
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
July 17, 2011 - HHHe called it
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Post by Rican on Mar 21, 2019 9:02:02 GMT -5
I was arguing against a lot of this in the other Kofi thread in this week and a lot of people disagreed with me and gave me a lot to think about, so I am trying to reserve judgement and let it play out. BUUUUT, in my (admittedly cynical) opinion I don't think the race aspect of the angle is intentional and is more New Day and Byron on commentary trying to work some of it in and admittedly doing a good job of it. Every minority character in WWE history fighting against racism has been portrayed as a heel. I just think if that's what they were TRYING to do in this storyline they would be portraying Kofi as a whining heel and would not be subtle about it. I feel it's far more likely that they just don't know how to book a storyline like this without "evil boss hates the face because reasons!" and at least at the top of creative, are oblivious to the racial undertones its giving off. Kudos to Byron and New Day for working some of it in but I think that's more of their call and not the overarching purpose of the story. For reasons we can't talk about on here I just don't think Vince is coming up with a story that portrays him in that way and that ultimately ends with Kofi overcoming institutional racism. BUT, I would like to be wrong, and if I am it is impressive.
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Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 21, 2019 9:38:25 GMT -5
I'm just kind of tired of WWE booking having to rely on the "The Office is the Heel" crap, and to that end, having to embody every sort of social ill that its Modern Progressive Fanbase hates.
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nisidhe
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Posts: 5,761
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Post by nisidhe on Mar 21, 2019 9:40:54 GMT -5
It goes beyond skin color, though. WWE has historically had a very hard time pushing to the very top _anyone_ who isn't American. Exhibit A would be Bret Hart. Yes, he was a five-time WWE world champion, but Vince always made a show of getting the title off him as soon as it was convenient and as soon as he had an American waiting in the wings either to take it from Bret or to step up and send the Hitman back to #2 face. The company _knew_ what they were doing - even when Bret was on top for merch, was driving WWE's overseas growth despite it floundering stateside, and was tapped for PR work on a level we really wouldn't see until Cena. They tried pushing Hogan back into the picture; they tried pushing Luger but couldn't get him past the "We want Bret!" chants; they tried with Diesel but still had to keep Bret on PR and overseas tours; they tried with Michaels and lost money in 1996 with the crowds waiting with bated breath until Bret came back to face Austin.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Mar 21, 2019 9:46:12 GMT -5
They're carnies, they have no shame about anything.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 21, 2019 9:46:12 GMT -5
Said it in the other thread, but I agree with the bones of this: that initial promo with Vince not bashing Kofi but still reinforcing the glass ceiling/status quo was almost pitch perfect, as it didn't make McMahon a mustache twirling villain or bigot, but still depicted him as being shaped by racist forces that he has helped perpetuate over the years. After all, "racist" doesn't mean "bigot"; a person can be genuinely friendly with others of different backgrounds and respect them, yet still hold biases and beliefs that qualify as racist. I like that subtlety, and it serves the story wonderfully.
However, we then turn around and get Vince throwing Kofi into impossible situations, which I only get to a degree. Yes, I get the whole "working twice as hard for half as much" part and think that works, but the whole "beat six main eventers!" thing smacked more of cartoon supervillain Vince in an angle that works better with him not going that far. Like I said in the other thread, the biggest interest to me is in Bryan being the one pulling the strings, because the money is in "broken mirror" Bryan vs. "put upon everyman" Kofi. But by having Vince do stuff like this so overtly it kind of hurts that part of it; I get that's likely in part due to how quickly they have to throw this story together after stumbling upon it so recently, but it's failing to really close the circle to create a truly well-told story.
So, yeah: the skeleton of a really good story is there, and I'm 100% sure that the talent involved is doing their damndest to pull it all together on short notice, but it's just missing those right touches to take it over the line from "great concept" to perfect execution.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 9:54:06 GMT -5
I mean Vince said the N word on TV so it's not like Vince cares too much about that public perception. That was a comedy skit that was not meant to be malicious, despite being unfunny. It is not the same thing as what Hulk Hogan said in private. Would Vince do that same skit today? I actually think what Vince did was worse than Hogan. Prior to the leaked recording I don’t recall a single person claiming Hulk was a racist. So if he wasn’t illegally recorded we’d be busy mocking him for all the other stupid shit he does. With Vince, he actually had the guts to say it on TV knowing there would be no backlash over it. There are layers to racism, and the closet racist is much less offensive than the one who flaunts it.
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Post by realist on Mar 21, 2019 10:01:59 GMT -5
That was a comedy skit that was not meant to be malicious, despite being unfunny. It is not the same thing as what Hulk Hogan said in private. Would Vince do that same skit today? I actually think what Vince did was worse than Hogan. Prior to the leaked recording I don’t recall a single person claiming Hulk was a racist. So if he wasn’t illegally recorded we’d be busy mocking him for all the other stupid shit he does. With Vince, he actually had the guts to say it on TV knowing there would be no backlash over it. There are layers to racism, and the closet racist is much less offensive than the one who flaunts it. Real racism = good. Fake racism = bad. I'm afraid I don't really follow your point.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 10:04:32 GMT -5
That was a comedy skit that was not meant to be malicious, despite being unfunny. It is not the same thing as what Hulk Hogan said in private. Would Vince do that same skit today? I actually think what Vince did was worse than Hogan. Prior to the leaked recording I don’t recall a single person claiming Hulk was a racist. So if he wasn’t illegally recorded we’d be busy mocking him for all the other stupid shit he does. With Vince, he actually had the guts to say it on TV knowing there would be no backlash over it. There are layers to racism, and the closet racist is much less offensive than the one who flaunts it. I guess we can say that Edward Norton is racist because he hated blacks in American History X.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 21, 2019 10:30:31 GMT -5
Would Vince do that same skit today? I actually think what Vince did was worse than Hogan. Prior to the leaked recording I don’t recall a single person claiming Hulk was a racist. So if he wasn’t illegally recorded we’d be busy mocking him for all the other stupid shit he does. With Vince, he actually had the guts to say it on TV knowing there would be no backlash over it. There are layers to racism, and the closet racist is much less offensive than the one who flaunts it. I guess we can say that Edward Norton is racist because he hated blacks in American History X. Vince being racist isn’t something he does for TV. It’s documented all throughout the last 30 years in real life, including the known bigots he still has in his inner circle today. A white guy saying the N word in a movie to push a specific plot is different than Vince saying it on TV for no reason at all. Like I said if it was so harmless then Vince should do it again. Do it next week on TV. I’m willing to bet he wouldn’t.
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Post by OVO 40 hunched over like he 80 on Mar 21, 2019 10:35:07 GMT -5
The company has been racist for over 30 years. Like “hiding in plain sight” kind of racist. They won’t come out and say it but they’ve done more than enough to prove it. At this point it is what it is. Fans either overlook it because they like wrestling or I’m sure some fans are racist themselves so they identify with it (ex. The WWE could get live crowds to boo Middle Eastern characters in a split second). They do come out and say it, Vince said the n word in a promo and they invited Bill Watts to a round table celebrating black wrestlers lol. They’ve never been good at hiding their racism.
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