Why does Raven keep making excuses for Heyman in ECW?

[Glitch]

Each time Raven talks about Ecw, he makes it sound like company folded because it was just eventually unsustainable. Leaving out how bad Heyman was with money, and how he was pretty much letting the company die at the end.

I can only assume that since Raven made his bigger checks in wcw and wwf during this time, he doesn't care who got screwed over.

[MolotovMocktail]

Probably because Heyman was the first one to give him an opportunity as a main eventer. He was stuck as Scotty Flamingo in the light-heavyweight division in WCW, and in the WWF, relegated to managing. ECW was really the first time he got creative freedom, and is maybe more willing to overlook the business side of things when it comes to Heyman because of that.

[Mozenrath]

People very often have blindspots for their friends.

As mentioned by Molotov, he gave Raven a lot of freedom, and even eventually booking duties (At one point, Raven, Storm, and Dreamer were the booking committee), and that's the kind of creative freedom he hadn't been given before, and likely not since.

[Starshine]

To add on to the personal relationship slant, Heyman is also very much a visionary charismatic. He knows exactly how to sell his ideas and get people to both empathise with him and buy into his words. You always hear guys from that era talk about how despite not getting paid, Heyman would always leave the locker room with a rousing "rah-rah" speech which would get everyone so worked up that they'd leave the show on a high. When you have that sort of influence to the point people will buy into you despite not even getting anything in return, it's easy to see why some people who personally knew him were charmed for so long, and still are today when you also consider their nostalgia.

[BorneAgain]

And this might be me reaching, but Heyman as a boss was remarkably good at convincing his guys that they were all part of the same team and could get people going from being angry at him to wanting to following him into battle within one conversation. Now granted this was 20 years ago, and Raven as an intelligent guy was hardly a sap to fooled. However if there was someone in wrestling who could be so convincing and charismatic that people would still be inclined to cut him slack all these years later, its Paul.

[Deleted]

All of Raven’s checks probably cleared somehow.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

He calls Heyman his favorite booker and his Martin Scorsese because he was the person to get the best and most out of him. Raven explained that Heyman also saw himself as the Raven character.

On the other side, the compliment is mutual, Heyman described Raven as such a passionate performer that the business will never see again because of how much he brought to the role.

Also like mentioned above, Raven managed to dodge the bounced checks era because he made a lot of money in wcw and then almost immediately bounced to the wwe.

Unlike Tommy Dreamer who almost had to declare bankruptcy because Heyman didn’t paid him in six months and the truck was at his name.

[cabbageboy]

I would assume guys like Dreamer and Van Dam got all of their back pay once the WWF buyout of ECW happened? Either way it depends on one's standpoint. If Raven was never personally screwed over by Heyman money wise then he wouldn't focus on that stuff so much.

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2019 21:07:58 GMT -5 Glitch said:

Each time Raven talks about Ecw, he makes it sound like company folded because it was just eventually unsustainable. Leaving out how bad Heyman was with money, and how he was pretty much letting the company die at the end.

He talks about it like that because that's what happened. Heyman didn't just "let it die." He and his family lost several million dollars keeping it alive while it was unsustainable.

[Mozenrath]

Apr 1, 2019 21:19:40 GMT -5 @akeemresurrection said:

All of Raven’s checks probably cleared somehow.

As one of the top guys, he was probably pretty high on the priority list of guys to get paid even in the lean times.

[riseofsetian1981]

Rob Van Dam also remains highly complimentary of Heyman as well. Probably has to do with the fact that Heyman most likely took care of his high priority guys like a Raven, Van Dam, Storm, Awesome, etc.

[bmfjules]

I don't know if it is a blind spot or loyalty. I totally respect it if the latter though. Unless they do something truly egregious later on, you don't typically shit on the people who gave you your big breaks in life.

[Deleted]

Apr 1, 2019 23:44:32 GMT -5 bmfjules said:

I don't know if it is a blind spot or loyalty. I totally respect it if the latter though. Unless they do something truly egregious later on, you don't typically shit on the people who gave you your big breaks in life.

Yep. Money isn't everything. And any of them who are intelligent know he lost a large portion of his own family's money giving them the platform to be seen.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Apr 1, 2019 23:12:59 GMT -5 @mack619 said:

Apr 1, 2019 21:07:58 GMT -5 Glitch said:

Each time Raven talks about Ecw, he makes it sound like company folded because it was just eventually unsustainable. Leaving out how bad Heyman was with money, and how he was pretty much letting the company die at the end.

He talks about it like that because that's what happened. Heyman didn't just "let it die." He and his family lost several million dollars keeping it alive while it was unsustainable.

Yeah, Heyman‘s no saint and he’s definitely to blame for its downfall, but ECW legitimately did grow to an unsustainable level. Expenses inflated, income didn’t. They were too big for what they were, but never got big enough to make that next step


And yes, Heyman did hit a point where he was willing to just let it die. He was incredibly burnt out, mentally and financially, and had checked out knowing ECW was dead in the water like 6 months before it closed. Heyman was also living an unsustainable lifestyle of minimal sleep, and presumably lots of alcohol and cocaine. If ECW doesn’t fold, Heyman is probably long dead by now.

[OVO 40 hunched over like he 80]

Apr 1, 2019 22:35:02 GMT -5 cabbageboy said:

I would assume guys like Dreamer and Van Dam got all of their back pay once the WWF buyout of ECW happened? Either way it depends on one's standpoint. If Raven was never personally screwed over by Heyman money wise then he wouldn't focus on that stuff so much.

No they didn’t, they were saved by wwe contracts.

[Futureraven: Beelzebruv]

Apr 2, 2019 8:42:40 GMT -5 The Summer of Muskrat XVII said:

Apr 1, 2019 23:12:59 GMT -5 @mack619 said:

He talks about it like that because that's what happened. Heyman didn't just "let it die." He and his family lost several million dollars keeping it alive while it was unsustainable.

Yeah, Heyman‘s no saint and he’s definitely to blame for its downfall, but ECW legitimately did grow to an unsustainable level. Expenses inflated, income didn’t. They were too big for what they were, but never got big enough to make that next step


And yes, Heyman did hit a point where he was willing to just let it die. He was incredibly burnt out, mentally and financially, and had checked out knowing ECW was dead in the water like 6 months before it closed. Heyman was also living an unsustainable lifestyle of minimal sleep, and presumably lots of alcohol and cocaine. If ECW doesn’t fold, Heyman is probably long dead by now.

I'm a little surprised that it became unsustainable. They had action figures, a video game, international distribution.

And it's not like they brought in a ton of ex-big 2 guys on massive contracts, they'd have the occasional one like Sid/Hall for a short run. The core was always ECW Originals, who you'd think would be on a lower wage.

The production never looked amazing, so I'm not sure how much would have gone into that.

They must have been kinda crappy deals like the TNN one, which goes back to being really bad with money/legal stuff.

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Apr 2, 2019 9:02:41 GMT -5 Futureraven: Beelzebruv said:

Apr 2, 2019 8:42:40 GMT -5 The Summer of Muskrat XVII said:

Yeah, Heyman‘s no saint and he’s definitely to blame for its downfall, but ECW legitimately did grow to an unsustainable level. Expenses inflated, income didn’t. They were too big for what they were, but never got big enough to make that next step


And yes, Heyman did hit a point where he was willing to just let it die. He was incredibly burnt out, mentally and financially, and had checked out knowing ECW was dead in the water like 6 months before it closed. Heyman was also living an unsustainable lifestyle of minimal sleep, and presumably lots of alcohol and cocaine. If ECW doesn’t fold, Heyman is probably long dead by now.

I'm a little surprised that it became unsustainable. They had action figures, a video game, international distribution.

And it's not like they brought in a ton of ex-big 2 guys on massive contracts, they'd have the occasional one like Sid/Hall for a short run. The core was always ECW Originals, who you'd think would be on a lower wage.

The production never looked amazing, so I'm not sure how much would have gone into that.

They must have been kinda crappy deals like the TNN one, which goes back to being really bad with money/legal stuff.

They basically had no leverage, and had to take shitty deals to even keep a possibility of survival. Like, I think the only money they ever saw from Acclaim was the investment in the company. One of the PPV companies knew they were on the verge of bankruptcy, and didn’t pay out like 6-12 months worth of PPV money. And while they weren’t paying WCW money, their contracts had still increased considerably.

Like I said, at the end of the day it falls on Heyman, but there were definitely things beyond his control that caused massive damage.

[timelimitdraw]

ECW was in about $7-8 million of debt, the majority of which was his family's money. If In Demand had paid ECW the $2-3 million they were owed, they would have been able to stay in business, catch up on paying the talent, and take the (admittedly meager) TV deal Fox Sports Net offered them. Of course, In Demand probably didn't think WCW would go out of business at pretty much the same time...

[The Summer of Muskrat XVII]

Apr 2, 2019 9:20:38 GMT -5 timelimitdraw said:

ECW was in about $7-8 million of debt, the majority of which was his family's money. If In Demand had paid ECW the $2-3 million they were owed, they would have been able to stay in business, catch up on paying the talent, and take the (admittedly meager) TV deal Fox Sports Net offered them. Of course, In Demand probably didn't think WCW would go out of business at pretty much the same time...

That’s the other thing, from what I remember, it wasn’t that they weren’t getting TV offers, it’s that the offers were too small to keep the company afloat.

They took a bad deal with TNN just hoping to build a rep to get offered a better deal down the line and then wrestling cooled off and nobody was willing to pay good money. They essentially would’ve had to take an Impact/Pop TV deal without the million dollar backer to carry them through.

[Deleted]

I don't believe Heyman set out to screw people out of money, as mentioned, he was fried before the end and lost his own ass on the company too. I also believe he didn't do enough to stop guys who were losing money continuing to do so and should have been more open and honest.

That said, I honestly don't believe he could have stopped Dreamer. Tommy even now has a weird devotion to ECW. The others are happy to cash in whenever the opportunity arises, but Tommy has a level all on his own. Heyman could have told Tommy everything up front, I still think he'd have lost all he did trying himself to keep things afloat. Heyman wasn't so much Jim Jones here, Dreamer continued to make up the Kool (Flavor) Aid and chug it down. He still does now to an extent.