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Post by romanstylesiii on Apr 11, 2019 22:52:51 GMT -5
I am seeing it be crapped on by almost everyone, just wondering what was so bad? I have not seen it, so I am genuinely curious
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Apr 11, 2019 23:01:24 GMT -5
the morning of the show, Delirious went to everyone's house and peed in their cornflakes
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Apr 11, 2019 23:01:50 GMT -5
You know, I'll let other people spell out all the other problems, but my biggest issue was that it ended with Matt "Mike Kanellis is the most exciting guy I know" Taven holding up the ROH World Championship.
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Post by Starshine on Apr 11, 2019 23:04:33 GMT -5
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Post by Yamashita Enforcement Division on Apr 11, 2019 23:18:58 GMT -5
Here is a bulleted list.
+ New Japan and ROH have booking ideologies that don't gel when a card is made half-and-half, leading to a real weird feel. -> New Japan has a sports focused, in-ring product while ROH has adopted a TV-forward model with plenty of non-match angles and story beats. + New Japan saw the G1 Supercard as a showcase opportunity for all the biggest names on the roster, and as a make-good for the failed New Beginning USA tour. So they booked their matches as a general super card with big time singles matches involving all of the stars. + ROH booked the show as a massive pitch towards starting storylines with the intent of catching people's interest for the TV. -> Pacing of the show was off as a result. + ROH wasted one of their announced matches (Rush/Castle) on a 15 second squash followed by a post-match heel turn. Thereby denying the audience the opportunity to learn a damn thing about Rush. + After a lackluster Women's title match, ROH debuted a heel stable consisting of the two worst workers in the Beautiful People and Mandy Leon, doing a beatdown on the champion, who had only appeared to turn face during the match. + Noted annoying pieces of shit Enzo and Colin Cassady were involved in a worked-shoot angle New Japan was unaware of in advance. -> This angle ran over a different angle New Japan was planning, and prevented the new tag team champions room to celebrate their victory. -> It also killed the heat on HIROSHI TANAHASHI's ENTRANCE into Madison Square Garden. ZSJ/Tanahashi had to work to get the crowd back. + ROH's production crew shot Madison Square Garden like it was some tiny arena in Georgia, rather than the most famous arena in America. -> They also managed to ruin a lot of what makes rumbles cool for their Honor Rumble by not having the rights to play the legendary themes of Minoru Suzuki and Jushin Liger on TV (the arena got them though). + The Honor Rumble was booked to have an ending featuring a staredown between The GREAT MUTA and JUSHIN THUNDER LIGER being ruined by Kenny King to get heat on a heel challenger for the ROH Title (Which would be won by heel Matt Taven in ROH's main event) + Bully Ray booked a "New York Street Fight Open Challenge" that ROH decided to have answered before the event went live by Juice Robinson. They proceeded to take Juice out via an injury angle and have a surprise entrant, the presumable badly injured Flip Gordon. -> The planned match would devolve into a six-man tag street fight, when Juice Robinson and Mark Haskins would save Flip from a 3-on-1 beatdown by Bully Ray and a couple of nobodies. + Pictures of Kenny Omega, AJ Stlyes, and Brock Lesnar (shown during the IWGP title history) were more over than a majority of the ROH wrestlers. + ROH booked the show so that no good guy from ROH didn't look like at least something of loser.
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Post by AwamoriRock on Apr 11, 2019 23:30:03 GMT -5
Every ROH match was bad, Enzo/Cass, Bully Ray's shit etc. The rumble teasing a faceoff of two legends the crowd wanted only to be pissed on by Kenny King of all people.
The WOH thing is kind of a tell all. Stardom didn't even bother to send their ace or super rookie when they were in town, wrestling the same week, and opted for Mayu/Klein for the third time and then decided it was time to warp back to a period of TNA everyone hated. By all accounts it was a great show to be in attendance to, but if you look at what went down it was just a shitshow and I even think some of the NJPW matches (Tana/ZSJ/tag match/way too short jr match) under-performed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 1:56:57 GMT -5
All this. I think a lot could’ve been forgiven if the production wasn’t absolutely shit. The crowd wasn’t miced properly, the sound levels were all off, the direction was scatterbrained and awfully planned (he’ll they didn’t even show the enzo cass bullshit on the stream). And all this while NJPW is trying to knock it out of the park.
Here’s the thing, overall it was still a good card. But it’s pulled down by one half of the partnership.
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Post by evenbroddt on Apr 12, 2019 7:18:05 GMT -5
The fact that it was on the same card that NJPW was absolutely shining on only makes it seem worse in comparison. You got whiplash going from Naito vs Ibushi to Matt Taven winning the ROH title to Okada vs White.
Imagine having NXT Takeover NY matches sharing the same card as the post WM Raw show.
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Apr 12, 2019 9:38:31 GMT -5
If I'm NJPW that is seriously making me consider terminating this partnership. Un-f***ing-believably unprofessional of them to not tell NJPW or THE TALENT IN THE RING about it in advance.
nZo or CazXl (ugh) could have gotten Dash Wilder'd.
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Post by Pgarodactyl on Apr 12, 2019 9:46:43 GMT -5
If I'm NJPW that is seriously making me consider terminating this partnership. Un-f***ing-believably unprofessional of them to not tell NJPW or THE TALENT IN THE RING about it in advance. nZo or CazXl (ugh) could have gotten Dash Wilder'd. If someone Dash Wilder'd either of those two, it'd make them the biggest face in ROH.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 12, 2019 15:26:00 GMT -5
If I'm NJPW that is seriously making me consider terminating this partnership. Un-f***ing-believably unprofessional of them to not tell NJPW or THE TALENT IN THE RING about it in advance. nZo or CazXl (ugh) could have gotten Dash Wilder'd. If someone Dash Wilder'd either of those two, it'd make them the biggest face in ROH. Dash Wilder'd?
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Apr 12, 2019 15:35:54 GMT -5
If someone Dash Wilder'd either of those two, it'd make them the biggest face in ROH. Dash Wilder'd? assuming it was in reference to Dash uppercutting the fan that attacked Bret.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Apr 12, 2019 15:59:36 GMT -5
Lots of people had stopped watching ROH, and so they didn't know who most of the wrestlers were or why they should care about them. This was a STRONG contrast from NJPW, which most of the viewers knew well.
All bad booking aside, it made for an extremely difficult situation for ROH.
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 12, 2019 16:07:53 GMT -5
Jeff Cobb was one of the only guys who looked like a star on the ROH end, and he's also kinda/sorta on the NJPW end, too, anyhow.
I think the biggest problems ROH had was, they treated this like a B-show instead of an A one, and gave us more angle starts than conclusions, which was a problem when expectations were that this was going to be a big show, like NJPW treated it with title changes and big blowups.
Second issue is one that has plagued ROH forever. The production was weak. Poorly mic'd crowd sounding dead sometimes, ROH not even shooting the Enzo thing in an attempt to make it look legit just making for bad viewing, and amateurish commentary. They've been told to get their shit together on this since the early years of the company, and they still don't want to invest in it.
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Post by Rave on Apr 13, 2019 18:29:56 GMT -5
Who in their right mind thought four commentators was a good idea, anyway? I'm watching the AXS broadcast and everyone's stepping all over each other. Absolute cringe.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 13, 2019 18:40:12 GMT -5
Lots of people had stopped watching ROH, and so they didn't know who most of the wrestlers were or why they should care about them. This was a STRONG contrast from NJPW, which most of the viewers knew well. All bad booking aside, it made for an extremely difficult situation for ROH. It's a weak foot to start on, but at the same time we're talking about as hardcore a wrestling crowd as you get. How many of that crowd must have been to independent shows before with people they never saw before, and by the end of the night were won over? And in that regard you can even see it in the crowd reacting to stuff like PCO's huge spot. This was a crowd that was more than ready to believe, ROH just didn't give them much to re-establish those connections or foster those sorts of new connections.
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Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on Apr 13, 2019 23:06:21 GMT -5
I want to harp on the Rush Vs. Castle match a little more.
So this was a match that should have been huge for Castle and for Rush.
For Castle this was his chance to get some big attention on an international scale. If he'd put on a good show against Rush, who is one of Mexico's biggest stars, on a big stage like this could have earned him some bookings down south. He's been an enormous star on the indy scene in the US, but this could have been his big break in Madison Square Garden.
For Rush though this was his chance to expose himself to audiences outside of Mexico. Honestly, to the general wrestling public Rush is a mostly unknown talent. I mean my knowledge of him begins with him being one of the biggest stars in Mexico and he's been a huge influence on Tetsuya Naito. While he'd had a fantastic match with Bandido, this was a far bigger stage against a far more established Star in Dalton Castle.
This should have been a chance to expose your biggest signing in YEARS to the biggest audience they've ever had, and probably will ever have in a competitive and high octane match get his moveset, and show everybody exactly why this signing was such a big deal.
Instead they have Dalton Castle, one of their few genuinely hot acts squashed in 15 seconds, and then have him turn heel by throwing one of the things that got him over away.
This was the kind of shit we all give WWE hell for.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Apr 14, 2019 0:49:32 GMT -5
I want to harp on the Rush Vs. Castle match a little more. So this was a match that should have been huge for Castle and for Rush. For Castle this was his chance to get some big attention on an international scale. If he'd put on a good show against Rush, who is one of Mexico's biggest stars, on a big stage like this could have earned him some bookings down south. He's been an enormous star on the indy scene in the US, but this could have been his big break in Madison Square Garden. For Rush though this was his chance to expose himself to audiences outside of Mexico. Honestly, to the general wrestling public Rush is a mostly unknown talent. I mean my knowledge of him begins with him being one of the biggest stars in Mexico and he's been a huge influence on Tetsuya Naito. While he'd had a fantastic match with Bandido, this was a far bigger stage against a far more established Star in Dalton Castle. This should have been a chance to expose your biggest signing in YEARS to the biggest audience they've ever had, and probably will ever have in a competitive and high octane match get his moveset, and show everybody exactly why this signing was such a big deal. Instead they have Dalton Castle, one of their few genuinely hot acts squashed in 15 seconds, and then have him turn heel by throwing one of the things that got him over away. This was the kind of shit we all give WWE hell for. I''ll give you the fact that they squandered an opportunity to showcase Rush, but I'll defend turning Castle heel. His act was stale as hell and has been for a while, and his ROH title run never got into second gear due to both injury and having other faces more over than him at time (looking at ROH repeating the same cycle with Marty Scrull). He needs a reboot pretty hard, and MSG was about as good of a platform to pull the trigger.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Apr 14, 2019 3:02:25 GMT -5
Every ROH match was bad, Enzo/Cass, Bully Ray's shit etc. The rumble teasing a faceoff of two legends the crowd wanted only to be pissed on by Kenny King of all people. The WOH thing is kind of a tell all. Stardom didn't even bother to send their ace or super rookie when they were in town, wrestling the same week, and opted for Mayu/Klein for the third time and then decided it was time to warp back to a period of TNA everyone hated. By all accounts it was a great show to be in attendance to, but if you look at what went down it was just a shitshow and I even think some of the NJPW matches (Tana/ZSJ/tag match/way too short jr match) under-performed. Who are Stardom’s Ace/Super Rookie?
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Post by AwamoriRock on Apr 14, 2019 3:11:20 GMT -5
Every ROH match was bad, Enzo/Cass, Bully Ray's shit etc. The rumble teasing a faceoff of two legends the crowd wanted only to be pissed on by Kenny King of all people. The WOH thing is kind of a tell all. Stardom didn't even bother to send their ace or super rookie when they were in town, wrestling the same week, and opted for Mayu/Klein for the third time and then decided it was time to warp back to a period of TNA everyone hated. By all accounts it was a great show to be in attendance to, but if you look at what went down it was just a shitshow and I even think some of the NJPW matches (Tana/ZSJ/tag match/way too short jr match) under-performed. Who are Stardom’s Ace/Super Rookie? Momo Watanabe is the ace, Utami Hayashishita is the super rookie.
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