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Post by Main Eventer on Jun 23, 2019 0:59:08 GMT -5
I would have given it to Owen or Bulldog. Have the storyline be that Bret refuses to face any American in Canada. They put Owen or Bulldog in the match, beat Bret then kick him out of the Hart Foundation for being a loser. Gets the title off of Bret and gives momentum to the Foundation that they were going to lose with the lose of Bret.
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Post by Casey Jones (AKA MrThrowback) on Jun 23, 2019 1:00:55 GMT -5
I'm going on the idea that losing by DQ due to hijinks involving one or more other wrestlers does not qualify as "putting Shawn over." No one would view it as Shawn actually beating Bret, which seemed to be Bret's entire hangup.
It wasn't that Bret wanted to win. It was that he wanted Shawn to loose. Shawn had recently told Bret that he wasn't willing to "return the favor" to Bret. So Bret said he would drop the title to Shawn on Raw if Shawn would do the job at Survivor Series. Bret, Shawn and J.R have a pretty good talk about it on their greatest rivalries dvd
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Post by CubsFan71 on Jun 23, 2019 1:53:02 GMT -5
I still say the whole damn was a work and Bret was in on it the whole time i could believe that, especially since the fallout kind of benefited WWE in the long-run, plus the whole Wrestling with Shadows documentary being conveniently filmed during all of it. However, I feel like if it was a work, Bret would have been back a lot sooner than 12 years later. There’s a real obvious answer for that
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Post by The 1Watcher Experience on Jun 23, 2019 2:00:40 GMT -5
I still say the whole damn was a work and Bret was in on it the whole time i could believe that, especially since the fallout kind of benefited WWE in the long-run, plus the whole Wrestling with Shadows documentary being conveniently filmed during all of it. However, I feel like if it was a work, Bret would have been back a lot sooner than 12 years later. You’re forgetting about Owen Hart. I don’t buy into the doublecross being a work. Bulldog took a pay cut when he went to WCW. Neidhart probably did too. I don’t see those guys leaving for less money to further an angle.
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Post by mauled on Jun 23, 2019 2:09:17 GMT -5
The thing is, Bret WAS down to do it, just not in Canada. He said he'd drop the title to Shawn, just not in Canada. THEN Shawn said, "Hey, I really appreciate you dropping the belt to me, but I just want you to know, I'd never do the same for you", and THAT'S where Bret took the slap in the face, and it became "Anyone but Shawn", which I think is pretty justified. It's f***ing Shawn, though. After the Sunny Days shit, etc, why care now, of all times? Like, he could lose it on a boat, to a goat, and Shawn would have made a smug comment about it, given Bret was leaving and not going to be there to kick the shit out of him again. Given even the non-screwjob version of events would probably have Shawn winning the title in some messy way for heat, it's not like Bret wasn't going to be any less protected, and the Canada stuff is also weird to me. Like, did Bischoff mandate that to him in order to try to protect his stock there, as if a title loss to Shawn would damage him more on Canadian soil for some reason? Otherwise, it's his home country, sure, but it wasn't his hometown, or even his province. It'd be like if Shawn had said, "I can't lose the title to Bret in Milwaukee, it'd be a slap in the face!" Regards the Bishoff stuff. On Meltzer Starcade 97 podcast Meltzer said there were plans by WCW to use Bret in Canada to break into the Canadian market with a Hogan feud but someone said That don't work for me brother and it got canned. Its kind of ironic but Bret could have beaten the whole roster on his last match or been humiliated losing to midget it wouldn't have made the difference to his WCW career because there was no way Hogan was not burying him when he got over there.
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hassanchop
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Post by hassanchop on Jun 23, 2019 3:22:26 GMT -5
Have fake Razor Ramon return and make it a triple threat. Fake Razor acts like he's the real Scott Hall and brings up his "friendship" with Shawn Michaels, Shawn just kicks him takes the title not pinning Bret and tells Bret to take Razor South with him. Bret ends the show by beating up fake Razor.
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segaz
Samurai Cop
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Post by segaz on Jun 23, 2019 4:13:17 GMT -5
Shawn didn't want to drop it to Bret so he vacates the title before WM.
Bret was literally given creative control and yet didn't want to drop it to Shawn in Canada, but somehow he's the ultimate crybaby.
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4real
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Post by 4real on Jun 23, 2019 4:13:45 GMT -5
I don’t think it could have worked out better for Vince & the WWF. They essentially made a complete mess of it and fell into the Vince v Austin story as a result. The Bret screwed Bret promo helped massively as well.
It worked out horribly for Bret in the long run but he still would have had the same run in WCW regardless of the screw job. Arguably he went in to WCW hotter because of it. Of course WCW did naff all with him.
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Post by RI Richmark on Jun 23, 2019 6:34:33 GMT -5
They were all f***ing marks in the situation. They should’ve just let Bret win and then said he left the company and they “vacated” the title. Bret Hart would’ve never dumped the title on Nitro. Vince was never going to let that happen. Bret simply vacating the title and walking away to WCW would have made the WWF appear to be the inferior promotion. Even if Bret didn't dump the title on Nitro Bischoff would have spent all show bragging "Hey Vince, I just signed away your Champion!" The WWF would have looked like a joke. Bret had to drop the title by Survivor Series. Bret wrestled on a couple of house shows that weekend. He could have easily dropped the title there to Undertaker or Shamrock there and do a triple threat at Survivor Series. But as Mothman said no one was acting rationally at that point.
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Post by avenger on Jun 23, 2019 6:59:13 GMT -5
Bret said he would even put over the Brookly Brawler Anyone but Shawn Imagine the bizarro wrestling world we'd be living in now after the surprise top heel run of the Brooklyn Brawler, kicking off with pinning Bret Hart in Canada. Brawler v Bret for the title was advertised for the next MSG show a couple of weeks later, as Brawler had won a battle royal for a title shot the previous time they'd run there.
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Jun 23, 2019 7:43:46 GMT -5
I'm just saying Undertaker and Kane were both right there to be transitional champs, or even Sid I think. no idea why Vince insisted Bret lose it directly to Shawn if they couldn't play nice with each other. it's entirely Vince's fault for not even trying to find another solution, and for letting Shawn and Bret's animosity get that bad too begin with.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jun 23, 2019 7:53:23 GMT -5
Shawn humps the flag, pretends to wipe his butt with it, sticks it in his nose, then screws over Bret, all in one night.
I don't how the motherf***er got out of there alive.
And why Taker could threaten to beat up Shawn for not doing business but not Bret is beyond me.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jun 23, 2019 8:11:34 GMT -5
i could believe that, especially since the fallout kind of benefited WWE in the long-run, plus the whole Wrestling with Shadows documentary being conveniently filmed during all of it. However, I feel like if it was a work, Bret would have been back a lot sooner than 12 years later. There’s a real obvious answer for that Yeah, but Bret seemed to deem the incident as a tragic accident, and seemed to be more forgiving than others.
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Jun 23, 2019 9:07:05 GMT -5
If they were so concerned with Bret taking the belt to Wcw, why wouldn't they just collect it from him when he went to the gorilla position after the match and give it back to him the next night so he could do the job to someone else? Vince really had a hard on for shawn because there's so many scenarios that could have played out to make it easier.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Jun 23, 2019 9:53:41 GMT -5
Until my last breath, or until Shawn Michaels or whomever had knowledge reveals the whole thing, I will remain of the belief that Shawn Michaels has/had certain information about Vince McMahon, a member of his family, or about the company that, if revealed particularly at that time, would have been so embarrassed to Vince that it might have killed WWE.
I'm also somewhat of the belief that Triple H was brought into Vince's inner circle to act as a gatekeeper between Shawn and Vince, and that it worked both to isolate Shawn and to undermine his credibility as a potential accuser. It may have been as much a response to that new treatment, as it was injury, that prompted Shawn to withdraw from wrestling after WM XIV.
It's all very vaguey-waguey and I'm generally talking out my ass, but there's only one reason I can think of for Vince not being at all open to alternatives when so many were available.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Jun 23, 2019 10:18:11 GMT -5
i could believe that, especially since the fallout kind of benefited WWE in the long-run, plus the whole Wrestling with Shadows documentary being conveniently filmed during all of it. However, I feel like if it was a work, Bret would have been back a lot sooner than 12 years later. You’re forgetting about Owen Hart. I don’t buy into the doublecross being a work. Bulldog took a pay cut when he went to WCW. Neidhart probably did too. I don’t see those guys leaving for less money to further an angle. If it was a work, WCW definitely screwed the pooch by not having their first storyline with Bret be some variation of “I’m still the WWE champion because I never legitimately lost the title. WWE had to cheat to put their guy over on my way out, and now I’m here to face some REAL competition”. But, making him a third wheel in a feud that didn’t need one, then playing Hogan’s lackey was just as good 🙄🙄.
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Post by RI Richmark on Jun 23, 2019 11:47:55 GMT -5
If they were so concerned with Bret taking the belt to Wcw, why wouldn't they just collect it from him when he went to the gorilla position after the match and give it back to him the next night so he could do the job to someone else? Vince really had a hard on for shawn because there's so many scenarios that could have played out to make it easier. Because even if Bret didn't take the belt to WCW (which I don't think he could do anyway because he couldn't legally go there for another month) the last thing Vince wanted to see was Bischoff start off Nitro (which started an hour before Raw at the time) announcing that he signed away Vince's champion. He didn't he have to lose to Shawn but there was no way Vince was going to let Bret leave Survivor Series as champion.
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Post by cabbageboy on Jun 23, 2019 13:36:40 GMT -5
Look, I detested Shawn as much as anyone during that time but he was the hottest heel they had. In all honesty looking at it now they shouldn't have even taken the title off Taker to put it on Bret. Let's be honest...Bret did nothing with the belt that last run. He dicked around with The Patriot in the midcard for a couple of PPVs while HBK/Taker was the actual main event feud. I wonder if they could have done a DQ at SS with the Shawn turn causing it somehow, but Taker keeps the belt. Or if they had to do a title change due to the "Bret will leave if he loses) stip then put it back on Taker in England at that PPV. Then you do Shawn/Taker at HIAC and not only does a debuting Kane cost Taker the match he can cost him the title as well.
The reality is that Shawn was in fact the top heel, both on screen and off. Austin was going to need a totally loathed heel to beat at WM and the best way to do that was HBK being the most obnoxious prick in the history of the business. Bret's heat as a heel was fading by the Fall of 1997, unwilling to be hated by everyone, everywhere. Shawn had no such qualms. HBK and HHH discussed this with Vince leading up to it, correctly noting that there's no reason to lose to a guy that is on his way out. After Shawn had screwed Bulldog in England, fluked by at HIAC vs. Taker, screwed Bret, and dodged Taker again at the Rumble there wasn't a soul alive that didn't want Austin to destroy him. And of course once Austin beat Michaels and Shawn had the bad back he was off TV for a very long time. We needed that. We had to be rid of Shawn Michaels at that point. As much as the post Summerslam 1997 booking boxed Bret into a corner the post WM 14 booking would have boxed HBK into a corner. There was nowhere to go and nothing to do. About all they could do is him vs. HHH for control of DX or something and he would have to lose there as well, but how does that impact a rising Rock? Michaels had to be gone, much like Bret had to go.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jun 23, 2019 14:19:35 GMT -5
With the recent Moxley shoot, the years of Roman Reigns pushes, wanting to main event Batista and Orton over Bryan etc, it's obvious where the fault lies.
SHAWN VS BRET, SURVIVOR SERIES, THAT'S GOOD SHIT!
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Post by jason1980s on Jun 23, 2019 15:34:10 GMT -5
Until my last breath, or until Shawn Michaels or whomever had knowledge reveals the whole thing, I will remain of the belief that Shawn Michaels has/had certain information about Vince McMahon, a member of his family, or about the company that, if revealed particularly at that time, would have been so embarrassed to Vince that it might have killed WWE. I'm also somewhat of the belief that Triple H was brought into Vince's inner circle to act as a gatekeeper between Shawn and Vince, and that it worked both to isolate Shawn and to undermine his credibility as a potential accuser. It may have been as much a response to that new treatment, as it was injury, that prompted Shawn to withdraw from wrestling after WM XIV. It's all very vaguey-waguey and I'm generally talking out my ass, but there's only one reason I can think of for Vince not being at all open to alternatives when so many were available. Vince probably made sexual advances to Michaels. Vince doesn't act the way he does about Michaels in 1995/96/97 without having sexual feelings for him. And I think Triple H and Michaels's friendship was developed well before Vince could think of having Triple H being anything more than just another roster member. It's actually Triple H and Michaels who I believe are the ones with feelings for each other more than friendship. It would not surprise me at all if their spouses were to pass or divorce either one that they act on their feelings finally. Good for Bret not wanting to drop the title to Michaels. I'm glad they reconciled and the DVD with Jim Ross makes me sniffle at the end but in 1997 Michaels was a despicable human being and very selfish. I get WWF was ready for an attitude era and he helped pave the way but some of the things he and Hunter Hearst Helmsley did were just disgusting. If the two of them had continued being on top of the title scene with no Rock, no Mankind and limited Austin, I can't see WWF beating WCW in the ratings at all and I also can't see either company being in business much longer after 2001.
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