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Post by lildude8218 on Aug 21, 2019 22:37:34 GMT -5
It's Bret's fault. If Bret doesn't force Vince to screw him at Survivor Series then that idea would have never even come up at Starrcade.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 21, 2019 22:42:20 GMT -5
Gotta be Bischoff. Look, the whole Bret aspect was already booked beforehand so you can't tell me they thought of doing the screwy finish literally the day of the show. I think Montreal caused WCW to overthink the situation in general and tried to play off it, but they didn't even execute a screwjob finish properly. Whether that was Hogan or not I dunno. If Hogan did in fact tell Nick Patrick to do a standard count then both men should have been fired. With Hogan that would be problematic due to his creative control clause but I don't know if even that means he can act unilaterally. As far as WCW being a TV company that did wrestling as opposed to a wrestling company I think that was a reason for their demise. Having looked at live attendance it's quite interesting how WCW never especially established itself as a live gate attraction even during the 83 week ratings streak. It's odd because just winning in the ratings didn't especially bring in insane revenue commiserate with those ratings since advertisers looked down on wrestling fans. The Nitro book makes note of this. They ended up paying talent based on 4.0 ratings without bringing in 4.0 level revenue and once those ratings fell and PPV numbers fell they were left with overpaid talent and no real revenue streams. It may surprise many to know that in the 22 months that WCW beat the WWF in the ratings the WWF actually had higher gate attendance in 15 of those 22 months. WCW never really became THE promotion as a result of this. That is a good point. Either way, they were never really giving Sting the solidifying win. Bischoff and his greed won over. He wanted to throw that back at Vince while also having Bret on his roster and in the end Hogan made sure he had his shit lined up as well with Nick just in case |
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Aug 21, 2019 22:57:40 GMT -5
Bischoff, he should've had a better handle on his people. All of them. Hogan, Nick, and Sting.
If Sting wasn't in shape or mentally able to handle it like he likely wasn't in real life, go with Plan B and go with Luger instead of hot shotting the title onto him and then off of him. Check up on Sting, have him go off to Japan for a few matches if he is doing good to shake off some rust and make sure he's as much at his best as he can be going into a match with Hogan.
Never give Hogan complete creative control. Never ever.
Ultimately it was Bischoff, and those in charge in general,'s incompetence that are to blame. There's a reason why so many wrestlers said the place was a disorganized mess of a madhouse. Hogan, Nash, Hall and the like don't turn the place into that without there being a severe compromised structure of power.
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Post by mauled on Aug 22, 2019 0:00:31 GMT -5
It was Hogan but Bishoff allowed him to get away with things that even with his creative control he shouldn't have.
Look at the match as a whole and not just the finish and its basically a glorified squash job. Sting gets no offensive in nor makes any type of comeback whatsoever.
Leaving aside all Eric's lies the match is a giant burial of Sting.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Aug 22, 2019 0:21:17 GMT -5
I must live under a rock. This the first I've ever heard of Sting being really deep into drugs.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Aug 22, 2019 2:57:53 GMT -5
I must live under a rock. This the first I've ever heard of Sting being really deep into drugs. I only found out a few years ago myself, but apparently he was very f***ed up in the 90s. Sting has such a clean cut image that it can be easy to forget that he came up in the territories in the 80s, when almost every wrestler was a roidy cokehead. |
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The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 22, 2019 3:48:04 GMT -5
Hogan. Always Hogan.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 22, 2019 3:58:14 GMT -5
I must live under a rock. This the first I've ever heard of Sting being really deep into drugs. Yea, he's been open about this. One of the reasons he became born again It sort of goes under the radar thanks to Sting reputation and the fact he was able to clean himself up behind closed doors. It never became a public showcase like a Jake Roberts |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 22, 2019 4:08:21 GMT -5
Hogan, because there was no way Bischoff could force Hogan to lose cleanly. Who gave him the contract with that power though? |
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Post by evilone on Aug 22, 2019 4:57:11 GMT -5
SC97 is a clustermess of Marvel Universe proportions. In the same ring you had the biggest ever wrestling superstar in the world, the biggest ever WCW superstar and the biggest current WWF superstar and you binned it. But you didn't bin it at that very moment, you did it while back when you gave Hogan the right to exercise the creative control and veto power. OK you probably couldn't know that back then in 94 when you did all you could to bring in Hogan but at that very night of SC97 there was a beacon in the sky that told everyone Hogan needs to be let go from the contract in order to renegotiate the terms.
Sting winning the title and Bret kicking out Hogan and taking over nWo that same night is what should have happened. Brutal, bitter Bret playing himself could have been a gold while Hogan ends up on redemption path year later or something to take down Bret with SC99 topping the one in 97. But idiots..
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Aug 22, 2019 5:06:47 GMT -5
They're both equally guilty. Hogan abused his creative control to get protected like he was still a face, Bischoff gave him that power, then spent decades justifying it and trying to shift blame onto Sting. I'm honestly surprised they didn't find a way to blame Bret too for letting them squander his debut how they did.
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Ben Wyatt
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 22, 2019 6:42:58 GMT -5
Speaking on the last thing I just said Did Luger defeating Hogan hurt Sting? Luger was so hot they had no choice but to do it tho I'd argue that Luger was the one hurt more by that entire deal more than anyone. Him winning the title was an awesome moment, but booking him to him to drop it less than a week later and then having him shrug and go 'eh, oh well' afterwards made him look like a total dumbass. I think people forget that Luger was probably the most over babyface in wrestling for a good chunk of 1997. As for the op question: It's Bischoff. As someone else said, Vince would have never allowed that finish. Not to mention, if you look at the entire card as a whole, the booking was f***ing atrocious, so it's not hard to see Eric's fingerprints on the Main event too |
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 22, 2019 6:47:14 GMT -5
It's Bret's fault. If Bret doesn't force Vince to screw him at Survivor Series then that idea would have never even come up at Starrcade. I always thought Bret got a bad deal for "whining" about the screwjob, but with that said, him doing that angle at Starrcade (and then rehashing it 2 years later with Goldberg) kinda makes him look like an ass |
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 22, 2019 7:05:16 GMT -5
I must live under a rock. This the first I've ever heard of Sting being really deep into drugs. Yeah he was in a really bad place mentally at the time. From all accounts only his close circle really knew (Lex, The Steiners, and the American Males). From the stories I've heard the typical night for Sting was probably dealing with depression and was having marriage issues so the drugs were to help him forget the pain. |
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 22, 2019 7:34:56 GMT -5
Speaking on the last thing I just said Did Luger defeating Hogan hurt Sting? Luger was so hot they had no choice but to do it tho I'd argue that Luger was the one hurt more by that entire deal more than anyone. Him winning the title was an awesome moment, but booking him to him to drop it less than a week later and then having him shrug and go 'eh, oh well' afterwards made him look like a total dumbass. I think people forget that Luger was probably the most over babyface in wrestling for a good chunk of 1997. As for the op question: It's Bischoff. As someone else said, Vince would have never allowed that finish. Not to mention, if you look at the entire card as a whole, the booking was f***ing atrocious, so it's not hard to see Eric's fingerprints on the Main event too Just fantasy booking here. After he loses it, he's angry and takes on some of the other, upper level nWo guys to keep him away from the World Title. Starrcade, Sting v Hogan, Sting's dominating, the nWo get barely out of the entrance, and a pissed off Luger comes out of the crowd, hold them off with a chair and drives them back so they don't interfere. That distraction happens, Hogan gets a weak as crap roll up, ACTUAL super fast count, as Hogan touches the belt, Bret's music hits, do the same thing with him restarting the match. 1 Scorpion Death Drop, Nick Patrick counts slowly, but Sting wins. That sets up Hogan for a rematch, and Luger and Hart both have a claim to a title shot for helping out Sting. There's also 3 of them, so you can have Sting/Hart/Luger v Hogan and the Outsiders, you should have like, 6 months of storylines right there. |
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 22, 2019 7:38:36 GMT -5
I'd argue that Luger was the one hurt more by that entire deal more than anyone. Him winning the title was an awesome moment, but booking him to him to drop it less than a week later and then having him shrug and go 'eh, oh well' afterwards made him look like a total dumbass. I think people forget that Luger was probably the most over babyface in wrestling for a good chunk of 1997. As for the op question: It's Bischoff. As someone else said, Vince would have never allowed that finish. Not to mention, if you look at the entire card as a whole, the booking was f***ing atrocious, so it's not hard to see Eric's fingerprints on the Main event too Just fantasy booking here. After he loses it, he's angry and takes on some of the other, upper level nWo guys to keep him away from the World Title. Starrcade, Sting v Hogan, Sting's dominating, the nWo get barely out of the entrance, and a pissed off Luger comes out of the crowd, hold them off with a chair and drives them back so they don't interfere. That distraction happens, Hogan gets a weak as crap roll up, ACTUAL super fast count, as Hogan touches the belt, Bret's music hits, do the same thing with him restarting the match. 1 Scorpion Death Drop, Nick Patrick counts slowly, but Sting wins. That sets up Hogan for a rematch, and Luger and Hart both have a claim to a title shot for helping out Sting. There's also 3 of them, so you can have Sting/Hart/Luger v Hogan and the Outsiders, you should have like, 6 months of storylines right there. I bet that took you 2 minutes, and yet it was light years better than what we got |
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Post by MC Blowfish on Aug 22, 2019 9:57:03 GMT -5
Let me get this straight. Sting while not wrestling was still there. He was still in attendance and you didn't notice anything wrong until the last minute? At the end of the day, Bischoff was in charge and should have been on top of this. You spent an entire year building up this match. This just reeks of revisionism by Bischoff.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 22, 2019 10:18:41 GMT -5
Let me get this straight. Sting while not wrestling was still there. He was still in attendance and you didn't notice anything wrong until the last minute? At the end of the day, Bischoff was in charge and should have been on top of this. You spent an entire year building up this match. This just reeks of revisionism by Bischoff. Bischoff tended to not pay attention to a lot of things so does that surprise you? |
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 22, 2019 10:37:18 GMT -5
My understanding was that Bischoff was the one who signed Hogan and gave him creative control in the first place? So Bischoff is to blame. I still say no talent, even Hogan, should have that stupid contract.Maybe especially Hogan since he is an egomaniacal politician It is asking for disaster( which happened) |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 22, 2019 10:48:03 GMT -5
Hogan. Creative control meant he could veto anything.
Bisch did give him that, but that was way earlier.
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