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Post by timelimitdraw on Aug 22, 2019 10:52:26 GMT -5
Hogan.
Sting worked a handful of non-televised matches to get the ring rust off before Starrcade. Bischoff had ample opportunities to know what they were getting with Sting and ask him to make changes if necessary. If Sting had shown up in no condition to perform, we would've heard about it a long time ago.
It begins and ends with Hogan using his creative control to ensure that WCW would keep him in the main event picture as his contract was about to expire. Brilliant move for him personally in that moment, but it completely ruined the first viable long-term storytelling WCW had done in years and was incredibly short-sighted because it wound up being the first fallen domino in the collapse of WCW.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Aug 22, 2019 14:47:28 GMT -5
I don't know if you can assign one more blame than the other. Was Hogan a selfish asshole. Oh yeah. Was Bischoff shortsighted and lacking a spine. Oh yeah. Of all the time that has passed, I've never really got a concrete version of what would have happened if Sting was in shape; where was the angle going. There was zero way Bischoff was going to kill off his cash cow, the nWo, no matter if Sting looked like 1990 Sting, so what is the long game?
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Post by chronocross on Aug 22, 2019 14:48:25 GMT -5
I'd say Hogan as he had the ability to put Sting over like he did Luger back in August of that year in a decisive fashion with no bs finish.
I didn't even think the match was all that bad at the time, I watched it at friend's house and marked out like crazy when Sting won. I just hated it when they blew the rematch on Nitro the next night and did a schmoz finish stripping Sting of the belt right after he won it.
Did Sting ever say that he was not in ring shape for the event? I know he admits to using drugs at various points during that run, but I don't recall if that was specifically linked to the Starrcade event.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 22, 2019 14:56:03 GMT -5
I'd say Hogan as he had the ability to put Sting over like he did Luger back in August of that year in a decisive fashion with no bs finish. I didn't even think the match was all that bad at the time, I watched it at friend's house and marked out like crazy when Sting won. I just hated it when they blew the rematch on Nitro the next night and did a schmoz finish stripping Sting of the belt right after he won it. Did Sting ever say that he was not in ring shape for the event? I know he admits to using drugs at various points during that run, but I don't recall if that was specifically linked to the Starrcade event. He admits to his own personal problems in that time period but to my recollection he has never said specifically that he was not in shape or had his mind right for that event
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Nr1Humanoid
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Aug 23, 2019 3:50:04 GMT -5
Hogan.
Bischoff was too busy being the backside of a human centipede.
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Post by abjordans on Aug 23, 2019 7:20:13 GMT -5
I feel like this match is only dissected to pieces in hindsight and because the follow up was kind of crappy. The night it happened, it came off as a big babyface win for Sting.
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Post by Ryushinku on Aug 23, 2019 8:15:49 GMT -5
In years past I blamed Hogan, but Bischoff's attempted justifications in recent years really make me blame him most.
While he's trying to shift blame, instead it frames it as he completely took his eye off the ball of the biggest angle in the company, biggest show in the company's history, failed to do proper or even basic preparation and was (as too often) weak in the face of Hogan's demands.
His weak hand on the rudder allowed things to come to a head. Hogan was being Hogan, sadly.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 23, 2019 8:24:05 GMT -5
I can buy Sting being in a bad place around that time; what I can't buy is any excuse for WCW not having everything in order to make sure SC '97 goes off without a hitch. It's the biggest angle in company history, WWF is beginning to gain momentum with Austin, you HAVE to make sure that everything's good to go. Have people visit Sting, have him in the gym with WCW trainers, have him working in the ring, even just at the Power Plant or at a private wrestling school elsewhere, SOMETHING.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Aug 23, 2019 8:32:21 GMT -5
I can buy Sting being in a bad place around that time; what I can't buy is any excuse for WCW not having everything in order to make sure SC '97 goes off without a hitch. It's the biggest angle in company history, WWF is beginning to gain momentum with Austin, you HAVE to make sure that everything's good to go. Have people visit Sting, have him in the gym with WCW trainers, have him working in the ring, even just at the Power Plant or at a private wrestling school elsewhere, SOMETHING. Yeah, this isn't not knowing what Super Calo's up to. This is Sting, your franchise player and half of your biggest angle.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Aug 23, 2019 9:50:00 GMT -5
While everyone points at the fingerpoke as the thing that Killed WCW, it can be argued that Starrcade 97 was the moment that completely shifted everything the wrong way. I said it earlier in the thread, but the entire card was booked ass backwards.
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Post by johnnyk9 on Aug 23, 2019 10:29:55 GMT -5
Nick Patrick deserves the blame
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Aug 23, 2019 10:59:03 GMT -5
Hogan deserves some blame for being his usual useless orange self. That said, buck stops with Bischoff for being the man in charge, giving Hogan the ability to throw His usual suck attacks, and flinching about the obvious payoff to the company's biggest angle ever at the last minute for spurious reasons. Bonus points for not even checking on Stings physical conditioning (which, given the build was probably not something the fans cared about half as much as wanting to see Sting bring down Hogan for good).
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Post by sfvega on Aug 23, 2019 11:05:10 GMT -5
Let me get this straight. Sting while not wrestling was still there. He was still in attendance and you didn't notice anything wrong until the last minute? At the end of the day, Bischoff was in charge and should have been on top of this. You spent an entire year building up this match. This just reeks of revisionism by Bischoff. Bischoff tended to not pay attention to a lot of things so does that surprise you? See, that seems really plausible. I might even go a step further and wonder if Hogan didn't wait until the 11th hour and start whispering into Bischoff's ear about Sting's drug problem, forcing him to scramble right before the biggest show they've ever had. Hogan was a world class politician and Bischoff never really planned shows out in advance, so it seems like easy opportunity and motive. Regardless, I still think Hogan bears more of the blame. Hogan put over Luger and Piper twice before this. He only had a real problem here because Sting had surpassed him in popularity. Bischoff gave him creative control, but in doing so made the company 5x more relevant. If he doesn't give Hogan what he wanted, chances are that Starrcade 97 looks more like Starrcade 93. A better show, yes, but not as important, popular, or profitable. Bischoff should have either gotten Hogan to play ball or had a contingency plan, period. Sting shouldn't have been pilled out of his mind for a lot of that time, which has been widely confirmed. I don't know if I believe the coke rumors though as that seems less mentioned most places. He was deemed fit to perform every other date he was there during the year. I'd say 45% Hogan, 35% Bisch, 20% Sting. No one is a victim here, but ultimately if Hogan just mans up and passes out like he did in Piper's sleeper hold, none of these overdone threads take place.
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Post by abjordans on Aug 23, 2019 13:00:16 GMT -5
Bischoff tended to not pay attention to a lot of things so does that surprise you? See, that seems really plausible. I might even go a step further and wonder if Hogan didn't wait until the 11th hour and start whispering into Bischoff's ear about Sting's drug problem, forcing him to scramble right before the biggest show they've ever had. Hogan was a world class politician and Bischoff never really planned shows out in advance, so it seems like easy opportunity and motive. Regardless, I still think Hogan bears more of the blame. Hogan put over Luger and Piper twice before this. He only had a real problem here because Sting had surpassed him in popularity. Bischoff gave him creative control, but in doing so made the company 5x more relevant. If he doesn't give Hogan what he wanted, chances are that Starrcade 97 looks more like Starrcade 93. A better show, yes, but not as important, popular, or profitable. Bischoff should have either gotten Hogan to play ball or had a contingency plan, period. Sting shouldn't have been pilled out of his mind for a lot of that time, which has been widely confirmed. I don't know if I believe the coke rumors though as that seems less mentioned most places. He was deemed fit to perform every other date he was there during the year. I'd say 45% Hogan, 35% Bisch, 20% Sting. No one is a victim here, but ultimately if Hogan just mans up and passes out like he did in Piper's sleeper hold, none of these overdone threads take place. Well.... I’d say Bret Hart was a victim.
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Post by sfvega on Aug 23, 2019 13:07:37 GMT -5
See, that seems really plausible. I might even go a step further and wonder if Hogan didn't wait until the 11th hour and start whispering into Bischoff's ear about Sting's drug problem, forcing him to scramble right before the biggest show they've ever had. Hogan was a world class politician and Bischoff never really planned shows out in advance, so it seems like easy opportunity and motive. Regardless, I still think Hogan bears more of the blame. Hogan put over Luger and Piper twice before this. He only had a real problem here because Sting had surpassed him in popularity. Bischoff gave him creative control, but in doing so made the company 5x more relevant. If he doesn't give Hogan what he wanted, chances are that Starrcade 97 looks more like Starrcade 93. A better show, yes, but not as important, popular, or profitable. Bischoff should have either gotten Hogan to play ball or had a contingency plan, period. Sting shouldn't have been pilled out of his mind for a lot of that time, which has been widely confirmed. I don't know if I believe the coke rumors though as that seems less mentioned most places. He was deemed fit to perform every other date he was there during the year. I'd say 45% Hogan, 35% Bisch, 20% Sting. No one is a victim here, but ultimately if Hogan just mans up and passes out like he did in Piper's sleeper hold, none of these overdone threads take place. Well.... I’d say Bret Hart was a victim. He is, but he also never got any of the blame for whatever the hell clown car trainwreck that was that we all watched.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Aug 23, 2019 18:51:53 GMT -5
I feel like this match is only dissected to pieces in hindsight and because the follow up was kind of crappy. The night it happened, it came off as a big babyface win for Sting. After how many times the nWo always screwed over and f***ed over WCW, it actually makes sense for the guy saving WCW to give Hollywood a dose of his own medicine. Again, that finish would have worked if Patrick actually made the fast count.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2019 19:05:12 GMT -5
I can buy Sting being in a bad place around that time; what I can't buy is any excuse for WCW not having everything in order to make sure SC '97 goes off without a hitch. It's the biggest angle in company history, WWF is beginning to gain momentum with Austin, you HAVE to make sure that everything's good to go. Have people visit Sting, have him in the gym with WCW trainers, have him working in the ring, even just at the Power Plant or at a private wrestling school elsewhere, SOMETHING. Yeah, this isn't not knowing what Super Calo's up to. This is Sting, your franchise player and half of your biggest angle. Oddly Bischoff almost exclusively knew what Super Calo was up to at this time. Whenever they'd write the shows, Eric was always like "But what about my boy, Super Calo?" They even started a book club together, Calo always chose the newest Goosebumps and Bischoff went with Sue Grafton nine times out of ten.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Aug 23, 2019 19:22:41 GMT -5
I feel like this match is only dissected to pieces in hindsight and because the follow up was kind of crappy. The night it happened, it came off as a big babyface win for Sting. After how many times the nWo always screwed over and f***ed over WCW, it actually makes sense for the guy saving WCW to give Hollywood a dose of his own medicine. Again, that finish would have worked if Patrick actually made the fast count. Yea, the match itself and the news we know after has a ton of shit with it but if Nick actually made the fast count I think it would be less of a problem. Hogan was still beating Sting around the ring which is a problem but with Nick not doing the fast count it just threw this whole thing for a wack
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bigbadbull
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Post by bigbadbull on Aug 23, 2019 19:25:21 GMT -5
What I didn't get was how come they didn't have him do a match or two on the house show circuit leading back to Starrcade? So poeple can see where he's at and get an assessment of the ring rust, etc. WCW was a TV show featuring wrestling. It wasn’t a wrestling company. lol WWE (or Raw more specifically) is a tv show that features wrestling.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Aug 23, 2019 20:12:40 GMT -5
WCW was a TV show featuring wrestling. It wasn’t a wrestling company. lol WWE (or Raw more specifically) is a tv show that features wrestling. The second they lost TV WCW was gone. It was a TV show. If Vince loses TV, he’s gonna go out and earn it again.
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