Crappler El 0 M
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Sept 8, 2019 20:00:48 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess he does. Oh, well. His peers are better judges than we are.
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bob
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Post by bob on Sept 8, 2019 20:02:54 GMT -5
before he had knee issues he was an amazing wrestler
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Post by Jumpin' Jesse Walsh on Sept 8, 2019 20:13:36 GMT -5
A lot of the hate he's gotten has always mystified me. Most of it seems to be "He was overshadowed by his wife LOL!" which seems like a trite reason, not to mention one that's weirdly sexist.
Johnny B. Badd absolutely could've gone the way of Oz and PN News, but it didn't, mainly because Mero put in the work and grew into it.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 8, 2019 20:44:48 GMT -5
A lot of the hate he's gotten has always mystified me. Most of it seems to be "He was overshadowed by his wife LOL!" which seems like a trite reason, not to mention one that's weirdly sexist. Johnny B. Badd absolutely could've gone the way of Oz and PN News, but it didn't, mainly because Mero put in the work and grew into it. It's not an issue of sexism, though. Let me put it this way. If Shawn didn't exist, Marty Janetty's career would probably be considered pretty respectable, minus how many times he's been fired, I guess. Actually, even considering that, he'd be like a Snuka-type. Still, IC title, not bad, right? But Shawn does exist, and there is no conversation about Marty that doesn't involve Shawn in some capacity, outside of maybe "hey remember him trying to f*** his daughter figure? Man, that was weird". It's a shadow over his career he can't shake, and the same goes for Marc with Sable. It isn't some knock on him for having a more successful S/O, so much as it just kind of makes it difficult to take him on his own.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 9, 2019 0:51:01 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess he does. Oh, well. His peers are better judges than we are. Not when there is clear bias in judgment based upon finances than talent
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Nr1Humanoid
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Sept 9, 2019 3:39:52 GMT -5
Yeah dude gets shit on a lot because Vince saw big things in him and he didn’t turn out the way The Rock and Stone Cold did. But how many people turn out to be like those two? Literally two. The difference between Vince actively trying to make you a big thing and getting over happening organically.
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efarns
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Post by efarns on Sept 9, 2019 4:19:21 GMT -5
Yeah, I guess he does. Oh, well. His peers are better judges than we are. Not when there is clear bias in judgment based upon finances than talent I agree. I think 80% of criticism of other workers in shoot interviews is basically jealousy over money. Not that I wouldn't do the same thing in their shoes. Johnny B. Badd became one of my favorites when he confronted PN News on a Clash of the Champions and subsequently killed his push. He is a hero.
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Post by realist on Sept 9, 2019 6:31:14 GMT -5
I read Mick Foley's first book as a teenager. I was probably 14 or 15. Even at that time, I thought that Mick came off as a jealous asshole in regards to Marc Mero. He talked about him like he had done something horrible or unforgiveable. All he did was get a better contract for his services.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 10, 2019 3:38:39 GMT -5
I read Mick Foley's first book as a teenager. I was probably 14 or 15. Even at that time, I thought that Mick came off as a jealous asshole in regards to Marc Mero. He talked about him like he had done something horrible or unforgiveable. All he did was get a better contract for his services. Honestly? I always took it as more him making an indictment against WCW than Mero himself, though there was certainly some bitterness about Sable when he was frustrated in the mid-90s. And I mean, was he wrong? He absolutely should have been making the kind of money Mero was. One of them gave Sting one of his best feuds, and it wasn't the guy facing DDP in a best to 103 series. He also was resentful about the money Ventura made, and that wasn't wrong, either, considering how much of a non-factor he was in WCW. Also, to be fair to Mero, obviously, it's not his fault if he had a sweet gig, and it wasn't like it was just him. Due to signing a contract before Turner bought WCW, the Midnight Express were probably the highest paid people outside of Flair, Sting, and maybe Vader. This was one of a myriad of problems they'd have with Jim Herd, but it also led to resentment from other wrestlers. Another big example would be that a major reason Big Show left WCW was finding out Curt Hennig made much, much more money than him, I think in the order of 2-3 times as much, despite being not as important as Giant was. This, plus Bischoff lashing out at him when Show wanted to get a raise, let to him jumping. Hell, Lance Storm has said the way he kept a straight face during promos was to remind himself how much more Luger made than him in 2000, and that nothing he could said in his promo would be remotely funny to him. Resentment's unavoidable, but it does seem like WCW was weird about pay even by wrestling standards. It's definitely not exclusive to Mero.
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EyeofTyr
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Post by EyeofTyr on Sept 10, 2019 4:12:46 GMT -5
It's a weird bag honestly in regards to Mero. He was an underrated wrestler, even after his knee issues he made the best out of his Marvelous Marc Mero gimmick and he was entertaining a few times on the mic, the few times he got the mic.
But yeah, there was a lot of jealousy surrounding him by other guys with how much money he was making. That soured a lot of people on him and a lot of those people, like Foley, had influence on wrestling fans at large.
The other, more work related, critique I hear about him from talents that seem to have less sour grapes about him and his pay is that he wasn't a master of a psychology. Which is to say, he needed a lot of help with it during his matches, especially in WCW. Hence why some of his best work was with DDP, who planned things out to the letter beforehand and who was (even if begrudgingly by some) considered someone that was pretty good at the psychology aspects of the performance. Something I think he actually improved on, albeit too little too late some may say, by the time he had to change up his style.
The woman beater traits of his character and the getting the tar kicked out of him by them in the Attitude Era of all time periods ensured he never really rose to meet his potential in the WWE either. Some guys weirdly held it against him too that he worked so hard to make Sable and Jackie look so good in their big moments against him too, I recall that from various interviews with various people. Showing the caliber of man some of them were, they scoffed and acted like Mero was an idiot for trying to have a good business relationship with Sable post-their breaking up (generally with sentiments that he let her use him). There were Candido/Sunny comparisons made by some of the boys more than once prior to Candido's passing.
His post-career antics haven't endeared him to people either. But there was already a lot of resentment towards him.
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Post by realist on Sept 10, 2019 5:46:53 GMT -5
I read Mick Foley's first book as a teenager. I was probably 14 or 15. Even at that time, I thought that Mick came off as a jealous asshole in regards to Marc Mero. He talked about him like he had done something horrible or unforgiveable. All he did was get a better contract for his services. Honestly? I always took it as more him making an indictment against WCW than Mero himself, though there was certainly some bitterness about Sable when he was frustrated in the mid-90s. And I mean, was he wrong? He absolutely should have been making the kind of money Mero was. One of them gave Sting one of his best feuds, and it wasn't the guy facing DDP in a best to 103 series. He also was resentful about the money Ventura made, and that wasn't wrong, either, considering how much of a non-factor he was in WCW. Also, to be fair to Mero, obviously, it's not his fault if he had a sweet gig, and it wasn't like it was just him. Due to signing a contract before Turner bought WCW, the Midnight Express were probably the highest paid people outside of Flair, Sting, and maybe Vader. This was one of a myriad of problems they'd have with Jim Herd, but it also led to resentment from other wrestlers. Another big example would be that a major reason Big Show left WCW was finding out Curt Hennig made much, much more money than him, I think in the order of 2-3 times as much, despite being not as important as Giant was. This, plus Bischoff lashing out at him when Show wanted to get a raise, let to him jumping. Hell, Lance Storm has said the way he kept a straight face during promos was to remind himself how much more Luger made than him in 2000, and that nothing he could said in his promo would be remotely funny to him. Resentment's unavoidable, but it does seem like WCW was weird about pay even by wrestling standards. It's definitely not exclusive to Mero.If I remember correctly, the resentment began in WWF, not WCW. I think that he and Sable were signed to Superstar deals, while Mick Foley was signed to a "here's an opportunity; now go get over" type of deal, which was more of the norm at the time. My whole issue with Mick Foley is that he didn't have the testicular fortitude to call out Vince McMahon over what he felt was a major pay discrepancy and instead blamed the guy who benefitted from it, which imo, is a bitch move regardless of how many cages you throw yourself off of. As Booker T used to say, don't hate the player; hate the game. Can you imagine if someone on the current roster got on social media and bitched about how much some of his coworkers like Gallows and Anderson or Maria and Mike Kanellis were being paid to keep them in WWE instead of going to AEW? Sometimes, someone is able to get a better contract than you.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 10, 2019 6:09:21 GMT -5
Honestly? I always took it as more him making an indictment against WCW than Mero himself, though there was certainly some bitterness about Sable when he was frustrated in the mid-90s. And I mean, was he wrong? He absolutely should have been making the kind of money Mero was. One of them gave Sting one of his best feuds, and it wasn't the guy facing DDP in a best to 103 series. He also was resentful about the money Ventura made, and that wasn't wrong, either, considering how much of a non-factor he was in WCW. Also, to be fair to Mero, obviously, it's not his fault if he had a sweet gig, and it wasn't like it was just him. Due to signing a contract before Turner bought WCW, the Midnight Express were probably the highest paid people outside of Flair, Sting, and maybe Vader. This was one of a myriad of problems they'd have with Jim Herd, but it also led to resentment from other wrestlers. Another big example would be that a major reason Big Show left WCW was finding out Curt Hennig made much, much more money than him, I think in the order of 2-3 times as much, despite being not as important as Giant was. This, plus Bischoff lashing out at him when Show wanted to get a raise, let to him jumping. Hell, Lance Storm has said the way he kept a straight face during promos was to remind himself how much more Luger made than him in 2000, and that nothing he could said in his promo would be remotely funny to him. Resentment's unavoidable, but it does seem like WCW was weird about pay even by wrestling standards. It's definitely not exclusive to Mero.If I remember correctly, the resentment began in WWF, not WCW. I think that he and Sable were signed to Superstar deals, while Mick Foley was signed to a "here's an opportunity; now go get over" type of deal, which was more of the norm at the time. My whole issue with Mick Foley is that he didn't have the testicular fortitude to call out Vince McMahon over what he felt was a major pay discrepancy and instead blamed the guy who benefitted from it, which imo, is a bitch move regardless of how many cages you throw yourself off of. As Booker T used to say, don't hate the player; hate the game. Can you imagine if someone on the current roster got on social media and bitched about how much some of his coworkers like Gallows and Anderson or Maria and Mike Kanellis were being paid to keep them in WWE instead of going to AEW? Sometimes, someone is able to get a better contract than you. Eh, he called the company out, too, and he did resist signing until they promised him more money, operating on little more than a handshake for a period after his initial push with the Taker feud. Like, I remember him telling Vince he made less than a tenured janitor and wasn't really making much more in WWF than he had in ECW, which Vince supposedly was surprised by. Like, I freely admit he wasn't being fair, but he *did* hold Vince to account, too.
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Post by realist on Sept 10, 2019 6:13:37 GMT -5
If I remember correctly, the resentment began in WWF, not WCW. I think that he and Sable were signed to Superstar deals, while Mick Foley was signed to a "here's an opportunity; now go get over" type of deal, which was more of the norm at the time. My whole issue with Mick Foley is that he didn't have the testicular fortitude to call out Vince McMahon over what he felt was a major pay discrepancy and instead blamed the guy who benefitted from it, which imo, is a bitch move regardless of how many cages you throw yourself off of. As Booker T used to say, don't hate the player; hate the game. Can you imagine if someone on the current roster got on social media and bitched about how much some of his coworkers like Gallows and Anderson or Maria and Mike Kanellis were being paid to keep them in WWE instead of going to AEW? Sometimes, someone is able to get a better contract than you. Eh, he called the company out, too, and he did resist signing until they promised him more money, operating on little more than a handshake for a period after his initial push with the Taker feud. Like, I remember him telling Vince he made less than a tenured janitor and wasn't really making much more in WWF than he had in ECW, which Vince supposedly was surprised by. Like, I freely admit he wasn't being fair, but he *did* hold Vince to account, too. You're probably right. I haven't read that book in about 20 years. I'm going purely off of how angry I was reading it at the time. lol
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 10, 2019 6:29:41 GMT -5
Eh, he called the company out, too, and he did resist signing until they promised him more money, operating on little more than a handshake for a period after his initial push with the Taker feud. Like, I remember him telling Vince he made less than a tenured janitor and wasn't really making much more in WWF than he had in ECW, which Vince supposedly was surprised by. Like, I freely admit he wasn't being fair, but he *did* hold Vince to account, too. You're probably right. I haven't read that book in about 20 years. I'm going purely off of how angry I was reading it at the time. lol I mean, I don't doubt he was bitter about it, probably. He definitely aired some dirty laundry, like his issues he had with Flair, JJ Dillon, Randy Hales, etc, so I'm sure he got his knocks in on Marc. I mostly just remember the autograph signing he talked about where Owen and him signed some autographs, but then sat around in relative isolation after Sable's autographs started, and he was in that period before the big face push where he was just kinda lost in the shuffle for a bit.
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efarns
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Post by efarns on Sept 10, 2019 7:47:44 GMT -5
Mero was good at doing moves. He wasn't great at telling a story in the ring, but that list is long. I can't think of any time he was wrestling that he seemed to be giving less than his best. People get jealous about money, but Marc seemed to want to earn his salary.
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cjh
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Post by cjh on Sept 10, 2019 8:01:02 GMT -5
Foley was also upset about Mero's pay because right in the middle of Foley and Undertaker having their big feud, Undertaker wrestled Mero in a match that was apparently pretty bad.
Foley was actually so mad about it, when Jim Cornette told him that the company wanted Mero vs. Mankind at WrestleMania 13, Foley said he'd rather just get left off the show.
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Post by realist on Sept 10, 2019 9:05:55 GMT -5
Foley was also upset about Mero's pay because right in the middle of Foley and Undertaker having their big feud, Undertaker wrestled Mero in a match that was apparently pretty bad. Foley was actually so mad about it, when Jim Cornette told him that the company wanted Mero vs. Mankind at WrestleMania 13, Foley said he'd rather just get left off the show.I honestly like Mick Foley. I really do. He seems like a really good dude for the most part. But this is such petty bullshit. Could he have not pulled Marc Mero aside and said, "Hey man, we're penciled in to be working Mania together. We need to work on some things so we have a good match and maybe we can get something going where we both draw some money and make more."
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Sept 10, 2019 10:06:34 GMT -5
He was really solid and had a certain charisma to him. I just wish he could have had his run as Marvelous Marc without the injuries.
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Captain Stud Muffin (BLM)
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Sept 10, 2019 12:15:05 GMT -5
I read Mick Foley's first book as a teenager. I was probably 14 or 15. Even at that time, I thought that Mick came off as a jealous asshole in regards to Marc Mero. He talked about him like he had done something horrible or unforgiveable. All he did was get a better contract for his services. WCW was weird about pay even by wrestling standards. It's definitely not exclusive to Mero. Which is why guys preferred WWE/F way of payment. In WCW you get that guaranteed money so you don't have to do the extra work but in WWE you were paid based upon where you were on the card and you always were in position to make more money if you got to the main event Curt Henning doesn't have to worry about the main event because he's paid. Meanwhile, Big Show is on multiple main events and he wants to be paid like one but Eric threw a fit
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 10, 2019 15:16:42 GMT -5
WCW was weird about pay even by wrestling standards. It's definitely not exclusive to Mero. Which is why guys preferred WWE/F way of payment. In WCW you get that guaranteed money so you don't have to do the extra work but in WWE you were paid based upon where you were on the card and you always were in position to make more money if you got to the main event Curt Henning doesn't have to worry about the main event because he's paid. Meanwhile, Big Show is on multiple main events and he wants to be paid like one but Eric threw a fit Yeah, WCW, some guys obviously made way more money, but it did hurt drive sometime. It also contributed to WCW's perpetual house show woes, because some guys would skip them often because it wasn't really going to make a difference to your pay, so if you don't do it often enough to just get shitcanned, what can they really do to punish you for it?
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