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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Nov 25, 2019 6:09:25 GMT -5
For a long time, Survivor Series was founded upon their elimination tag matches... Teams of five strive to survive, as the phrase went. And it was a novelty back in the day, because with the way that the weekly TV was structured, there weren't a lot of all-in tag matches between teams of opposing stars. However now, it just seems like year after year of these we end up with the situation where they do these matches, most of which can happen on weekly TV on any given week, and the booking falls apart. This year was especially egregious given the addition of NXT to the brand battle proceedings, making it 5v5v5 and a whopping 15 people in the match.
The heart of the matter often lies with talents getting quickly eliminated, either within the general timeframe of the match or upon their entry into it. This kind of match isn't conducive to everyone getting 10 minutes of shine, unless one wants the match to go for an hour and a half, so the quick and regular eliminations are often necessary. However, because of all the added emphasis on the clean fall and how that dictates one's place on a roster in the eyes of the fanbase, this leads to much, much conjecture. We're seeing it this year with WALTER, the WWE UK Champion taking his first pinfall loss in his entire run in the company so far with no fanfare at all, and Damian Priest, a top NXT prospect who had very little involvement in the match at all before falling to an RKO. Last year it was Samoa Joe eliminated within the first minute. The year before that Becky Lynch gone within two minutes. Not to mention the wildcard that is the fans just not buying what is being sold, as shown this year with the increasingly unpopular Seth Rollins being RAW's last valiant man standing.
Between Vince, Triple H, USA Network, FOX, the live fans and possibly even the wrestlers themselves, there are so many masters to appease when it comes to booking these matches that, to me, it's just damn near impossible to book this match in a way where 9-14 people don't look bad despite possibly being pinned clean within five minutes. RAW can't look bad because USA is paying big money. SmackDown can't look bad because FOX is paying big money. NXT can't look bad because WWE want them to beat AEW in the ratings. It's almost not worth the fuss. But what if there is a solution? Like, we can't make the match go 90 minutes long just so everyone can get their shit in before they get eliminated. And it's not as simple as "Just eliminate the people I don't like first", because those people differ from person to person. Do we just need something more on the line that isn't just vague bragging rights? Is there a place in modern WWE for the traditional Survivor Series matches anymore?
TL;DR: What is the deal with these elimination tag matches?
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Nov 25, 2019 6:12:54 GMT -5
I was in a bar watching the show and I said to people I can't imagine booking those matches with all the components needed to satisfy so many different sides, two big ones being USA and FOX, without breaking down in tears and putting yourself in a fetal position. So all the sympathy in the world for them in that regard.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Nov 25, 2019 6:26:35 GMT -5
I think you already mentioned the main problem. Don't job out your more over and better workers first within minutes and make them look like schlubs. Becky in 17, Joe in 18, and Walter this year are all good examples you mentioned in recent years. I know technically it wasn't the first elimination but even in the women's elimination match this year kind of had it as Nikki who has been getting over and building momentum taking the first pinfall elimination.
I guess they do it for "shock" value but all it does is piss the fans off and takes them out of the match immediately because they're so irritated that they're favorite is already out. You have your lower tier people that nobody cares about take eat those falls. It would be like back in the early Survivor Series if they had Jake Roberts or Brutus Beefcake or some other popular upper midcard face get rolled up and pinned within the first two minutes just to surprise the fans while not caring about the wrestlers credibility or the crowd response. Instead they had lower card guys or tag wrestlers take those eliminations.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Nov 25, 2019 6:30:46 GMT -5
I was in a bar watching the show and I said to people I can't imagine booking those matches with all the components needed to satisfy so many different sides, two big ones being USA and FOX, without breaking down in tears and putting yourself in a fetal position. So all the sympathy in the world for them in that regard. I know wrestlers aren't as protective of their booking anymore but I would imagine it would probably be a hard match to book when it comes to appeasing them too. I know I wouldn't be too thrilled, especially if was talented and over, if I was told I was getting eliminated first in two minutes and made to look a jabrone. I'm guessing they probably just have the more lower maintenance people get eliminated quick to avoid headaches. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Nov 25, 2019 6:32:44 GMT -5
I was in a bar watching the show and I said to people I can't imagine booking those matches with all the components needed to satisfy so many different sides, two big ones being USA and FOX, without breaking down in tears and putting yourself in a fetal position. So all the sympathy in the world for them in that regard. I know wrestlers aren't as protective of their booking anymore but I would imagine it would probably be a hard match to book when it comes to appeasing them too. I know I wouldn't be too thrilled, especially if was talented and over, if I was told I was getting eliminated first in two minutes and made to look a jabrone. I'm guessing they probably just have the more lower maintenance people get eliminated quick to avoid headaches. Yeah, there is a sense of either them feeling like it won't matter in the long term (Becky's sure as hell didn't, I didn't remember that happened until, like, a day ago) or that they're happy to be there. I'd prefer the former to the latter in some ways but I get it. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 25, 2019 6:41:08 GMT -5
I think another key problem is how the old Survivor Series matches almost all had clear feuds on them; you'd get the 5-on-5 or 4-on-4 matches and it usually felt like each member of the face team had a corresponding heel on the opposing team they were in, at the very least, a house show feud with. If nothing else that at least adds some stakes to things.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Nov 25, 2019 6:43:58 GMT -5
I think you already mentioned the main problem. Don't job out your more over and better workers first within minutes and make them look like schlubs. Becky in 17, Joe in 18, and Walter this year are all good examples you mentioned in recent years. I know technically it wasn't the first elimination but even in the women's elimination match this year kind of had it as Nikki who has been getting over and building momentum taking the first pinfall elimination. I guess they do it for "shock" value but all it does is piss the fans off and takes them out of the match immediately because they're so irritated that they're favorite is already out. You have your lower tier people that nobody cares about take eat those falls. It would be like back in the early Survivor Series if they had Jake Roberts or Brutus Beefcake or some other popular upper midcard face get rolled up and pinned within the first two minutes just to surprise the fans while not caring about the wrestlers credibility or the crowd response. Instead they had lower card guys or tag wrestlers take those eliminations. Those lower tier people just aren't IN these matches nowadays, though. The teams used to be built around one main eventer with a couple of midcarders and probably a tag team. Now, these teams bottom out at the upper-midcard, regular midcard at the lowest, because of the brand battle thing. Like, who was RAWs bottom guy in their team? Ricochet, arguably their #3 babyface behind (nominally) Rollins and Owens. SmackDown? Probably Shorty G, but he's been featured so much recently, he's midcard at worst. And NXT? They have no tiers, they have 10-15 guys could be main event at any given time. And then you have to factor who the crowd actually wants to see succeed, and the answer there was basically "Everyone but RAW's top (nominal) babyface in Rollins, the team's only out-and-out heel in McIntyre and SmackDown's only heel in Corbin. Maybe Reigns too if he oversteps his bounds", so you're left with 11-12 people that fans don't want to see lose. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Nov 25, 2019 6:48:51 GMT -5
I think you already mentioned the main problem. Don't job out your more over and better workers first within minutes and make them look like schlubs. Becky in 17, Joe in 18, and Walter this year are all good examples you mentioned in recent years. I know technically it wasn't the first elimination but even in the women's elimination match this year kind of had it as Nikki who has been getting over and building momentum taking the first pinfall elimination. I guess they do it for "shock" value but all it does is piss the fans off and takes them out of the match immediately because they're so irritated that they're favorite is already out. You have your lower tier people that nobody cares about take eat those falls. It would be like back in the early Survivor Series if they had Jake Roberts or Brutus Beefcake or some other popular upper midcard face get rolled up and pinned within the first two minutes just to surprise the fans while not caring about the wrestlers credibility or the crowd response. Instead they had lower card guys or tag wrestlers take those eliminations. Those lower tier people just aren't IN these matches nowadays, though. The teams used to be built around one main eventer with a couple of midcarders and probably a tag team. Now, these teams bottom out at the upper-midcard, regular midcard at the lowest, because of the brand battle thing. Like, who was RAWs bottom guy in their team? Ricochet, arguably their #3 babyface behind (nominally) Rollins and Owens. SmackDown? Probably Shorty G, but he's been featured so much recently, he's midcard at worst. And NXT? They have no tiers, they have 10-15 guys could be main event at any given time. And then you have to factor who the crowd actually wants to see succeed, and the answer there was basically "Everyone but RAW's top (nominal) babyface in Rollins, the team's only out-and-out heel in McIntyre and SmackDown's only heel in Corbin. Maybe Reigns too if he oversteps his bounds", so you're left with 11-12 people that fans don't want to see lose. Honestly, my issue is less of that and more how they book people in those respective matches. Like, I could accept Gable losing by fluke if he didn't have those sequences with Ricochet and Matt Riddle beforehand where he looked like he was going to be something later on and the next thing you know, he's gone. Same with Walter, looked like he was going to be something and then he's gone. Hell, the Owens thing pretty much went nowhere because right after he hits a frog splash on the Raw guy, Ciampa takes him out with zero storyline tension. Riddle got the pin on Orton but by roll up and then he gets killed right away, pretty much making it 50/50 booking in minimalist form. And even outside of that, what happened to that Orton/Ricochet tension they were building for weeks even during the Survivor Series build? Like, there were no interactions there. I get with the Corbin/Reigns stuff that would be overkill but if you're not going to pay off on it, don't do it at all. |
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Nov 25, 2019 6:53:00 GMT -5
I know wrestlers aren't as protective of their booking anymore but I would imagine it would probably be a hard match to book when it comes to appeasing them too. I know I wouldn't be too thrilled, especially if was talented and over, if I was told I was getting eliminated first in two minutes and made to look a jabrone. I'm guessing they probably just have the more lower maintenance people get eliminated quick to avoid headaches. Yeah, there is a sense of either them feeling like it won't matter in the long term (Becky's sure as hell didn't, I didn't remember that happened until, like, a day ago) or that they're happy to be there. I'd prefer the former to the latter in some ways but I get it. Yeah I guess it depends on the person and what their standing in the company is. Newer guys and lower card people probably wouldn't give a crap and would just be happy to be on a PPV. Also it's not like they're in a position to give push back. Even if they weren't happy about it they would probably be too scared to make a stink in fear of getting heat. However I could see some upper midcard type people giving a WTF look at the booker and complaining a bit if told they were getting jobbed out first. I mean obviously she did it but Becky clearly looked pissed in that match a few years ago when she got eliminated first. Big time "boo boo" face coming down the aisle that made it obvious what her fate in that match was. The fact that she was still happy go lucky always smiling babyface Becky made it even more noticeable. |
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Nov 25, 2019 7:05:42 GMT -5
I think you already mentioned the main problem. Don't job out your more over and better workers first within minutes and make them look like schlubs. Becky in 17, Joe in 18, and Walter this year are all good examples you mentioned in recent years. I know technically it wasn't the first elimination but even in the women's elimination match this year kind of had it as Nikki who has been getting over and building momentum taking the first pinfall elimination. I guess they do it for "shock" value but all it does is piss the fans off and takes them out of the match immediately because they're so irritated that they're favorite is already out. You have your lower tier people that nobody cares about take eat those falls. It would be like back in the early Survivor Series if they had Jake Roberts or Brutus Beefcake or some other popular upper midcard face get rolled up and pinned within the first two minutes just to surprise the fans while not caring about the wrestlers credibility or the crowd response. Instead they had lower card guys or tag wrestlers take those eliminations. Those lower tier people just aren't IN these matches nowadays, though. The teams used to be built around one main eventer with a couple of midcarders and probably a tag team. Now, these teams bottom out at the upper-midcard, regular midcard at the lowest, because of the brand battle thing. Like, who was RAWs bottom guy in their team? Ricochet, arguably their #3 babyface behind (nominally) Rollins and Owens. SmackDown? Probably Shorty G, but he's been featured so much recently, he's midcard at worst. And NXT? They have no tiers, they have 10-15 guys could be main event at any given time. And then you have to factor who the crowd actually wants to see succeed, and the answer there was basically "Everyone but RAW's top (nominal) babyface in Rollins, the team's only out-and-out heel in McIntyre and SmackDown's only heel in Corbin. Maybe Reigns too if he oversteps his bounds", so you're left with 11-12 people that fans don't want to see lose. I guess this year it was kind of tough for the men's. I've been kind of enjoying Shorty G's face push on Smackdown so I was actually kind of bummed to see him get eliminated first off his team. I mean I guess they could've switched him and Ali or have Corbin take it after getting too cocky but I get there isn't many options. However in previous years recently they had old man Shane McMahon somehow outlasting almost everyone and dragging the match down despite clearly being the no brainer to go out first. In the women's ones in recent years they've always had clear no brainers for first to go but didn't go with them due to I guess it being too predictable. Alicia in 16, Tamina and Alicia again in 17, and Dana and Sarah this year. Instead they went with Carmella, Becky, and not counting the "injury" NXT eliminations Nikki this year all of whom were either over or getting a decent push. |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Nov 25, 2019 7:07:49 GMT -5
Those lower tier people just aren't IN these matches nowadays, though. The teams used to be built around one main eventer with a couple of midcarders and probably a tag team. Now, these teams bottom out at the upper-midcard, regular midcard at the lowest, because of the brand battle thing. Like, who was RAWs bottom guy in their team? Ricochet, arguably their #3 babyface behind (nominally) Rollins and Owens. SmackDown? Probably Shorty G, but he's been featured so much recently, he's midcard at worst. And NXT? They have no tiers, they have 10-15 guys could be main event at any given time. And then you have to factor who the crowd actually wants to see succeed, and the answer there was basically "Everyone but RAW's top (nominal) babyface in Rollins, the team's only out-and-out heel in McIntyre and SmackDown's only heel in Corbin. Maybe Reigns too if he oversteps his bounds", so you're left with 11-12 people that fans don't want to see lose. I guess this year it was kind of tough for the men's. I've been kind of enjoying Shorty G's face push on Smackdown so I was actually kind of bummed to see him get eliminated first off his team. I mean I guess they could've switched him and Ali or have Corbin take it after getting too cocky but I get there isn't many options. However in previous years recently they had old man Shane McMahon somehow outlasting almost everyone and dragging the match down despite clearly being the no brainer to go out first. In the women's ones in recent years they've always had clear no brainers for first to go but didn't go with them due to I guess it being too predictable. Alicia in 16, Tamina and Alicia again in 17, and Dana and Sarah this year. Instead they went with Carmella, Becky, and not counting the "injury" NXT eliminations Nikki this year all of whom were either over or getting a decent push. Yeah, no disrespect to her or anything but how the f*** did Dana Brooke last so long? |
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Nov 25, 2019 7:18:59 GMT -5
I guess this year it was kind of tough for the men's. I've been kind of enjoying Shorty G's face push on Smackdown so I was actually kind of bummed to see him get eliminated first off his team. I mean I guess they could've switched him and Ali or have Corbin take it after getting too cocky but I get there isn't many options. However in previous years recently they had old man Shane McMahon somehow outlasting almost everyone and dragging the match down despite clearly being the no brainer to go out first. In the women's ones in recent years they've always had clear no brainers for first to go but didn't go with them due to I guess it being too predictable. Alicia in 16, Tamina and Alicia again in 17, and Dana and Sarah this year. Instead they went with Carmella, Becky, and not counting the "injury" NXT eliminations Nikki this year all of whom were either over or getting a decent push. Yeah, no disrespect to her or anything but how the f*** did Dana Brooke last so long? Also it's not like she really had any role in the match. At least Sarah actually was in the ring a good bit before predictably getting pinned early. Dana just was on the apron almost her entire time in before getting owned by Asuka and pinned. Dana ended up outlasting Nikki, Carmella and Kairi which is something I wouldn't have predicted. In Carmella's case I guess it isn't that surprising as she's in the elimination match every year and never does anything it seems but I still would've thought she would've lasted longer then Dana. |
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