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Post by Thunderbolt on Dec 10, 2019 12:41:46 GMT -5
All that micromanaging and yet the production crew will still manage to miss shots...
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 10, 2019 12:44:44 GMT -5
The real problem is the mixed messages. They want control, but they don't train people to work that way. They run the match, but not ahead of time, making sure everyone's on the same page. It's a train wreck.
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Dec 10, 2019 14:21:55 GMT -5
All that just on 205 Live, I wonder if the main roster shows are even worse about this. "They're saying to grab Lana's ass more in front of her husband, Bobby. We really need to SELL that you've broken your dick off this woman!" -Vince (2019)
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Dec 10, 2019 14:25:39 GMT -5
This unexpectedly hit a nerve for me in a way that made me realize just what WWE's talent hoarding and then oppressive format is like. I write for a living, and some of that work has come from work-for-hire things that will never have my name on them and that I'm not legally allowed to take credit for. Those are usually the most demandingly step by step gigs with a very "You will write this out exactly as we have it here to hit all these points and we will be on your ass over any words you put in we want changed to better reflect The Brand" attitude to the whole thing. Everything is planned out for me to write and the outlines are so rigid that the dialogue I'm writing is just rephrasing and expanding on "person says A then other person says B then back to person for C". My input is zero, my contributions are all combed through and checked and decided on because nothing I can bring creatively matters to the situation, I'm not there for ideas or to be creative, I am there to put what has already been decided down onto the page and make the story planned out by somebody else come to life, and if it doesn't make sense or there's gaping plot holes, my only recourse is to be glad my name isn't on this.
It's not always the best feeling from a creative fulfilment standpoint, but I'm a nobody in this situation. If I had any name value my name would be on it but I also wouldn't be doing work on that level in the first place--with a few exceptions, but even the people who write for Star Wars in the Disney era have a lot of similar oversight. I'm not there because I'm an amazing writer who they need to make the project happen I'm there because I'm 'good enough' but also have no leverage, and if I don't want to do it there'll be another writer in that same position who will.
But the big difference is that TJP isn't some interchangeable schlub nobody. He's not an elite talent or anything, but he's good at what he does and he has experience that should have him be trusted to do what he does and bring that to the product. This goes for the ton of other really talented people in WWE who get boxed into these roles and micromanaged step by step. Where I'm an interchangeable for-hire nobody these wrestlers are being chosen not because they can sort of get the job done but because there's money that can be made by having them in there, that they're talented enough to be used to put on a great show that is better for having them. WWE wants to sign away the best and then strip away a lot of what they can offer, even when it's what helped get them onto the company's radar in the first place. It's not always a spectacular feeling working these projects, but it's something I can treat as a step along the way. For these guys, it's making it to the big leagues and finally coming into their own with proof they've made it only to be treated the exact same way and not allowed to bring what they can offer to the table. And I can understand how much that's got to feel like absolute trash.
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Post by darbus alan on Dec 10, 2019 14:54:03 GMT -5
That certainly explains why the WWE product feels so soulless.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 10, 2019 15:57:53 GMT -5
Just imagine if you're a wrestler who's learning all these different styles, moves, know yourself in and out and then you get told you have to keep all of that locked up and instead go by what they say. Most of the time it's purely based on physical appearance. Just imagine.
Dean Ambrose was as great as he was with all of those limitations and even more so that guy had more freedom than most. If he was that great? Just imagine how superstars are with more restrictions who didn't have 2 dudes who helped him team up on officials and writers.
And itâs not even like I want there to be no restrictions or for there to be no card balance but in almost every promotion worldwide, thereâs enough variety to showcase and enough kinds of characters and matches to have. They have a phenomenal roster with people whoâve had unique characters or at the very least different kinds of matches. If everyone is locked into one style or a method then nothing can come from that except the fan base looking at what is the best roster in wrestling history as âboringâ and âgenericâ which is f***ing wild. And yeah, the way Vince does it might suit people but not every big name actor wants to be directed by Martin Scorsese in the same way not every big name actor wants to be directed by Taika Waititi. But De Niro shines under Scorsese and Hemsworth shines under Waititi. The Cedric stuff still bothers the hell out of me. That match against Ibushi, Ibushi, would have been a star making moment in any other company anywhere in the world, an entire crowd chanting âPlease Sign Cedricâ, HHH literally coming out to basically say âYeah, alrightâ which NEVER happens. It was a moment and one that defined the Cruiserweight Classic as a must watch. Now if you look at the both of them, Cedric is on a list of guys who were âpushedâ as losers with other way too talented people and Ibushi is going to headline at least one Tokyo Dome show first thing 2020. How did THAT happen?!
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Post by autisticgeordie on Dec 10, 2019 16:00:01 GMT -5
It must be such a miserable experience to work for WWE.
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Post by Push R Truth on Dec 10, 2019 16:06:57 GMT -5
Sounds a lot like my job, but at least the wrestlers get an extra zero or two on the end of their paycheck
I'm not saying it doesn't suck. But at least they get paid.
once again though, this sounds like the total opposite of what made me like RAW all those years ago. WWE is the puppy that lost it's way.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 16:08:20 GMT -5
Itâs weird that none of the higher-ups realize how much of a detriment to the viewing experience some of this stuff is.
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Dec 10, 2019 16:15:13 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 17:24:40 GMT -5
Just imagine if you're a wrestler who's learning all these different styles, moves, know yourself in and out and then you get told you have to keep all of that locked up and instead go by what they say. Most of the time it's purely based on physical appearance. Just imagine.
Dean Ambrose was as great as he was with all of those limitations and even more so that guy had more freedom than most. If he was that great? Just imagine how superstars are with more restrictions who didn't have 2 dudes who helped him team up on officials and writers.
And itâs not even like I want there to be no restrictions or for there to be no card balance but in almost every promotion worldwide, thereâs enough variety to showcase and enough kinds of characters and matches to have. They have a phenomenal roster with people whoâve had unique characters or at the very least different kinds of matches. If everyone is locked into one style or a method then nothing can come from that except the fan base looking at what is the best roster in wrestling history as âboringâ and âgenericâ which is f***ing wild. And yeah, the way Vince does it might suit people but not every big name actor wants to be directed by Martin Scorsese in the same way not every big name actor wants to be directed by Taika Waititi. But De Niro shines under Scorsese and Hemsworth shines under Waititi. The Cedric stuff still bothers the hell out of me. That match against Ibushi, Ibushi, would have been a star making moment in any other company anywhere in the world, an entire crowd chanting âPlease Sign Cedricâ, HHH literally coming out to basically say âYeah, alrightâ which NEVER happens. It was a moment and one that defined the Cruiserweight Classic as a must watch. Now if you look at the both of them, Cedric is on a list of guys who were âpushedâ as losers with other way too talented people and Ibushi is going to headline at least one Tokyo Dome show first thing 2020. How did THAT happen?! Some people need restrictions to work at their max. Look at Rey Mysterio. Sure, WCW Rey was dope and all but it took WWE to make him what he is today, a legend. Cena's also someone who I don't think would be best working with no restrictions as he himself said that he works best with them. Some people work best that way but today's talent? They're creative, they've been in the indies for a while, they understand a lot more than older stars and beyond that in NXT that's pretty much what they do. They find out who they are and then hone it to the best way possible so when they get to the main roster you've already got a great foundation for them. I never watch NXT and think "man this is exactly like that other guy", it all feels fresh and it has a lot of variety.
But then on the main roster it's like everybody jumps into this same old template. Like I really think Vince has a playbook in his office with these different templates.
Heel #1 - Talky, asshole, humiliation heel. Runs away when the big fight starts. He has goons at times.
Heel #2 - Big, strong, tough heel. Thinks he can take on everyone because he's better than most of the roster. Sometimes has a manager.
Heel #3 - Weasel heel. Weaker version of Heel #1 and is usually a midcarder. Sometimes is a jokey heel. Heel #4 - Foreign heel. Has a manager most times, is generally an upper midcarder and is very talented. Conceited.
The problem is when we see those descriptions you know exactly the kind of stars I'm talking about before I even give examples. That's a major problem when everyone on the roster fits that.
Cedric ugh, I really hope that he leaves the company. He's great enough to be THE GUY anywhere else if they use him right.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffinâs Story on Dec 10, 2019 17:38:48 GMT -5
And to think, people still try to come with the "(insert wrestler) isn't great" comments when the reality is we don't know how great they are given they're being limited. I can honestly say that someone like dolph ziggler isn't great. He's been here for 15 years and nothing, and he's only gotten worse. While on the other end of the spectrum we have daniel bryan who is in the same company and is given the same limitations and yet has proven to be the greatest. Some guys just know how to adapt better than others, the cream always rises to the top Respectfully, I think this is demonstrably false. Ziggler had the crowd going insane in 2013 when he won the world title, had people captivated again during his feud with Miz over the IC Title and was also put in a great position at Survivor Series 16. Hell, go back and watch his matches over the IC Title with Rollins - they were GOOD. Even the Iron Man match. He's risen to the top on multiple occasions but creative never followed up. They totally dropped the ball on him post-concussion after his 1st title run and they refused to follow up after the fact. Daniel Bryan is one of the best of all time and yes, he's better than Ziggler, but I think the forced retirement makes us look back on what was happening to D. Bry with rose-colored glasses. They were going to end up in the same spot. If Bryan DIDN'T have to retire the first time, he would have been mishandled just as badly as Ziggler. Look at where he was trending after his Mania title win. They dumped him in a terrible storyline with Kane and he was going to get murdered by Lesnar. The forced retirement and return was the best thing to ever happen to Bryan, as crazy as that sounds.
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Post by arrogantmodel on Dec 10, 2019 17:53:57 GMT -5
Sounds a lot like my job, but at least the wrestlers get an extra zero or two on the end of their paycheck I'm not saying it doesn't suck. But at least they get paid. once again though, this sounds like the total opposite of what made me like RAW all those years ago. WWE is the puppy that lost it's way. Hopefully Triple H is the one to get up off his ass and finds that f***ing dog.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Dec 10, 2019 18:06:58 GMT -5
And itâs not even like I want there to be no restrictions or for there to be no card balance but in almost every promotion worldwide, thereâs enough variety to showcase and enough kinds of characters and matches to have. They have a phenomenal roster with people whoâve had unique characters or at the very least different kinds of matches. If everyone is locked into one style or a method then nothing can come from that except the fan base looking at what is the best roster in wrestling history as âboringâ and âgenericâ which is f***ing wild. And yeah, the way Vince does it might suit people but not every big name actor wants to be directed by Martin Scorsese in the same way not every big name actor wants to be directed by Taika Waititi. But De Niro shines under Scorsese and Hemsworth shines under Waititi. The Cedric stuff still bothers the hell out of me. That match against Ibushi, Ibushi, would have been a star making moment in any other company anywhere in the world, an entire crowd chanting âPlease Sign Cedricâ, HHH literally coming out to basically say âYeah, alrightâ which NEVER happens. It was a moment and one that defined the Cruiserweight Classic as a must watch. Now if you look at the both of them, Cedric is on a list of guys who were âpushedâ as losers with other way too talented people and Ibushi is going to headline at least one Tokyo Dome show first thing 2020. How did THAT happen?! Some people need restrictions to work at their max. Look at Rey Mysterio. Sure, WCW Rey was dope and all but it took WWE to make him what he is today, a legend. Cena's also someone who I don't think would be best working with no restrictions as he himself said that he works best with them. Some people work best that way but today's talent? They're creative, they've been in the indies for a while, they understand a lot more than older stars and beyond that in NXT that's pretty much what they do. They find out who they are and then hone it to the best way possible so when they get to the main roster you've already got a great foundation for them. I never watch NXT and think "man this is exactly like that other guy", it all feels fresh and it has a lot of variety.
But then on the main roster it's like everybody jumps into this same old template. Like I really think Vince has a playbook in his office with these different templates.
Heel #1 - Talky, asshole, humiliation heel. Runs away when the big fight starts. He has goons at times.
Heel #2 - Big, strong, tough heel. Thinks he can take on everyone because he's better than most of the roster. Sometimes has a manager.
Heel #3 - Weasel heel. Weaker version of Heel #1 and is usually a midcarder. Sometimes is a jokey heel. Heel #4 - Foreign heel. Has a manager most times, is generally an upper midcarder and is very talented. Conceited.
The problem is when we see those descriptions you know exactly the kind of stars I'm talking about before I even give examples. That's a major problem when everyone on the roster fits that.
Cedric ugh, I really hope that he leaves the company. He's great enough to be THE GUY anywhere else if they use him right.
Direction is good for people, I think under the right editorial oversight anyone can generally be better, whether it's through tightening their work and habits up, or for keeping them from just raw unfettered ego getting in the way. It's all about degrees of that oversight and that the oversight is coming from someone whose ideas can better everyone's work, and that's where WWE is struggling most right now. Lots of people come into their own in NXT thanks to those nudges and pushes, but I don't think it's a coincidence that far fewer come into their own on the main roster. A lot of people don't learn this way, or will fall into a routine of doing what they're told without thinking about it, or even will learn but won't be able to show it off because they're kept too tightly controlled to ever express that. And I think it goes without saying that Rey and Cena both came up at times of far less intense restriction and overproduction, beyond the need of some people to flourish with more hands-on efforts. Vince just isn't a good filter for this anymore. There's a lot of arguments to be made about how good he ever was, but his baseline sensibilities have taken such a nosedive over the past decade and a half that it's frightening how he remains unchallenged and completely confident in what he's doing. TJP coming in at the time he did had no hope of operating in that world.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 10, 2019 18:27:33 GMT -5
Some people need restrictions to work at their max. Look at Rey Mysterio. Sure, WCW Rey was dope and all but it took WWE to make him what he is today, a legend. Cena's also someone who I don't think would be best working with no restrictions as he himself said that he works best with them. Some people work best that way but today's talent? They're creative, they've been in the indies for a while, they understand a lot more than older stars and beyond that in NXT that's pretty much what they do. They find out who they are and then hone it to the best way possible so when they get to the main roster you've already got a great foundation for them. I never watch NXT and think "man this is exactly like that other guy", it all feels fresh and it has a lot of variety. Like, you can point to at least one or two times many people on that roster have been in comedy matches or storylines or matches with funny moments, Iâve seen in person Keith Lee react to Shane Strickland twisting the neck of someone in a tag match by crying out âOH MY GOOOOD!â and it was one of the funniest damn things because it was spontaneous as hell for example. Like you said, these are people whoâve been not just going and doing conventional indie matches but also WrestleMania weekend stuff where the audience is willing to have fun because the weekend in general is fun. And thatâs not to say, like youâre not either, that everything should be flexible and no restrictions but like others have said and I have, it doesnât make your show entertaining, it makes it routine. It makes your roster look dull. It makes your company, a company that made The Worm one of the most over things in wrestling, look incapable of even doing THAT anymore. Iâve said it before; they donât craft roles for people, they craft people for roles. It genuinely feels like you could remove someone from the roster, switch them for someone else and it wonât make a difference. Like, the anti authority character Kevin Owens has wasnât designed with Kevin Owens in mind. It was designed because they HAVE to have that character on the show, Kevin can hit the stunner and thatâs what heâs doing. Then you get times when they canât even do THAT right and have him grovel to the GM in a way Austin would have ranted for a decade against but thatâs a whole other topic. Like, I really appreciate the money is good in WWE and I donât expect anyone to leave that because, well, the hustle leads you to that point but man, if there arenât so many people who should at least use that star power to get some indie dates. See the wider range of talent out there, try some different matches, see how much you can learn from stepping out of your box.
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Post by Brandon Walsh is Insane. on Dec 10, 2019 18:30:14 GMT -5
IDK this is my favorite part of the whole AMA:
One other time was at the Anaheim pond I closed an SD taping with a 205 match against Neville. And when I started wrestling, when I was a teenager I used to do these small shows at the Anaheim marketplace. And me and a friend, his name is Dave, we used to do these shows and drive past the pond every time. And I would tell him someday we will wrestle there, just wait. Itâs where I saw Shawn wrestle Bret for the world title, I was in the 14th row for that. And now Dave is no longer a wrestler but he came to the show that night at the pond and Me vs Neville ended the show. Was a really cool moment to share with him.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2019 18:52:57 GMT -5
Direction is good for people, I think under the right editorial oversight anyone can generally be better, whether it's through tightening their work and habits up, or for keeping them from just raw unfettered ego getting in the way. It's all about degrees of that oversight and that the oversight is coming from someone whose ideas can better everyone's work, and that's where WWE is struggling most right now. Lots of people come into their own in NXT thanks to those nudges and pushes, but I don't think it's a coincidence that far fewer come into their own on the main roster. A lot of people don't learn this way, or will fall into a routine of doing what they're told without thinking about it, or even will learn but won't be able to show it off because they're kept too tightly controlled to ever express that. And I think it goes without saying that Rey and Cena both came up at times of far less intense restriction and overproduction, beyond the need of some people to flourish with more hands-on efforts. Vince just isn't a good filter for this anymore. There's a lot of arguments to be made about how good he ever was, but his baseline sensibilities have taken such a nosedive over the past decade and a half that it's frightening how he remains unchallenged and completely confident in what he's doing. TJP coming in at the time he did had no hope of operating in that world. It goes back to what Breeze said about his NXT character in how Triple H came up with the idea to use a selfie stick and phone instead of a mirror. It's like when Ambrose was talking about Triple H one time too where he said they were coming up with a finish of a match and they asked him and he said "well what about this?" and they loved it. He didn't tell them to do the finish, he brought the suggestion up and it ended up best for them. Not everybody needs to be heavily cherographed like TJP described. Some you just give a little direction and that's all they need, some just let them run wild, it depends. Rey and Cena yeah things weren't as handheld back then but they clearly had a direction that worked out for them and it helped in the long run. Not as much as today for sure.
At the end of the day yeah Vince just ain't it anymore. He needs to hand it over to Trips.
Like, you can point to at least one or two times many people on that roster have been in comedy matches or storylines or matches with funny moments, Iâve seen in person Keith Lee react to Shane Strickland twisting the neck of someone in a tag match by crying out âOH MY GOOOOD!â and it was one of the funniest damn things because it was spontaneous as hell for example. Like you said, these are people whoâve been not just going and doing conventional indie matches but also WrestleMania weekend stuff where the audience is willing to have fun because the weekend in general is fun. And thatâs not to say, like youâre not either, that everything should be flexible and no restrictions but like others have said and I have, it doesnât make your show entertaining, it makes it routine. It makes your roster look dull. It makes your company, a company that made The Worm one of the most over things in wrestling, look incapable of even doing THAT anymore. Iâve said it before; they donât craft roles for people, they craft people for roles. It genuinely feels like you could remove someone from the roster, switch them for someone else and it wonât make a difference. Like, the anti authority character Kevin Owens has wasnât designed with Kevin Owens in mind. It was designed because they HAVE to have that character on the show, Kevin can hit the stunner and thatâs what heâs doing. Then you get times when they canât even do THAT right and have him grovel to the GM in a way Austin would have ranted for a decade against but thatâs a whole other topic.Like, I really appreciate the money is good in WWE and I donât expect anyone to leave that because, well, the hustle leads you to that point but man, if there arenât so many people who should at least use that star power to get some indie dates. See the wider range of talent out there, try some different matches, see how much you can learn from stepping out of your box.
It makes you not want to tune in. Last night I skipped Raw. Sure, I could have seen it but I'm just not interested in the characters and storylines right now and that's just not good. These days you can immediately put 2 superstars in the ring and you can generally tell how the match will go from the dynamic to the finish, it's just boring. You're right when you say they craft people for roles because that's all it is these days. You have to be special to break that mold. New Day's one example and hell even going by their podcast the WWE had a completely different idea of what they'd be before they brought their own suggestions into play. Owens is a great example because this guy here, I mean you can give any loved babyface that role and they'd perform that way. Now say it was Owens and say you tell him "ok, he's the bad guy and you're the good guy, do what you want" guaranteed it would go differently than it did. Like I can't imagine Austin getting a lead pipe like Owens did.
That's one reason why I love NXT so much because it's just people who all have different roles who are working together in a storyline. It's more about themselves and their characters than their roles.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 10, 2019 19:03:03 GMT -5
Like, with New Day, a big part of that is not only were they over and selling a tonne or merch, you could argue Xavierâs a key reason why theyâre getting the video game connections they have. Like, I guarantee you that Rocket League deal wouldnât have happened if I wasnât for UpUpDownDown and if Xavier left tomorrow, so would any potential growth in that crowd whether to another company or somewhere like IGN, Giant Bomb, Gamespot etc where the door would be open for him to enter, never mind having to do that himself.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Dec 10, 2019 20:01:41 GMT -5
Like, with New Day, a big part of that is not only were they over and selling a tonne or merch, you could argue Xavierâs a key reason why theyâre getting the video game connections they have. Like, I guarantee you that Rocket League deal wouldnât have happened if I wasnât for UpUpDownDown and if Xavier left tomorrow, so would any potential growth in that crowd whether to another company or somewhere like IGN, Giant Bomb, Gamespot etc where the door would be open for him to enter, never mind having to do that himself. New Day is one of those acts you can look at to see why WWE's overbearing nature is such a problem. They came in with an awful gimmick everyone hated, and two major factors contributed to them being able to turn it around. One was Vince slowly losing interest and starting to lean on them less, the other was being able to get away with more freedom in Youtube clips that didn't have to be written for them, that let them show off a different side and reveal the personalities beneath. The act didn't thrive under the trappings of its church pageantry, but because three dudes funny in their own ways and with great chemistry get to show it. Their marketability is off of things Vince never had a hand in.
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Post by warden on Dec 10, 2019 20:56:26 GMT -5
I can honestly say that someone like dolph ziggler isn't great. He's been here for 15 years and nothing, and he's only gotten worse. While on the other end of the spectrum we have daniel bryan who is in the same company and is given the same limitations and yet has proven to be the greatest. Some guys just know how to adapt better than others, the cream always rises to the top Respectfully, I think this is demonstrably false. Ziggler had the crowd going insane in 2013 when he won the world title, had people captivated again during his feud with Miz over the IC Title and was also put in a great position at Survivor Series 16. Hell, go back and watch his matches over the IC Title with Rollins - they were GOOD. Even the Iron Man match. He's risen to the top on multiple occasions but creative never followed up. They totally dropped the ball on him post-concussion after his 1st title run and they refused to follow up after the fact. Daniel Bryan is one of the best of all time and yes, he's better than Ziggler, but I think the forced retirement makes us look back on what was happening to D. Bry with rose-colored glasses. They were going to end up in the same spot. If Bryan DIDN'T have to retire the first time, he would have been mishandled just as badly as Ziggler. Look at where he was trending after his Mania title win. They dumped him in a terrible storyline with Kane and he was going to get murdered by Lesnar. The forced retirement and return was the best thing to ever happen to Bryan, as crazy as that sounds. This will be a response to you and the other two. I respect your opinion and I can see why they're valid. But in my opinion Dolph's money in the bank cash in and his feud with the Miz were the only highlights of his career. In the beginning dolph was good or perceived to be at least during that time and he did have a few string of good matches that's why he was the show off. And it is unfortunate he got concussed during his title reign but it is what it is. But I believe he was going to be a transitional champion regardless reasons being management weren't keen on him and I can see why it will tie in with the end, in all the years he's been here he hasn't shown any change in character or imagination and he had a lot of peaks and valleys with match consistency and he could never really sustain a big enough following The last time I and probably many others ever cared about Dolph was his feud with the miz for the IC title. And granted it was a great story and both men had great matches with each other. But that feud all centered around dolph being an underachiever and his failings. That's why it felt so real cause it was, that's why dolph was so interesting during that feud because he must have known some of that was true. And looking back on their last match he probably should have lost. It would have allowed miz to continue his awesome reign and brag about being able to end careers and dolph could have gone away to retool his character or just left. Instead he won and his reign ended in 2 weeks, fart. Since then he has gone into cruise control and gotten progressively worse and beating him gives no one any credibility and from time to time he will complain. Now you can say booking didn't help him and you would have a valid point. Even though I am a believer that one's own choices are the only thing responsible for one's success. But whatever, let's just blame the booking... Dolph has had opportunities to leave and prove naysayers wrong. But he hasn't because he decided to stay comfortable. The comfort zone is where dreams go to die. No wonder management doesn't believe in him because he doesn't believe in himself. And if he doesn't believe he's good enough then I don't either. I agree with your bryan assessment
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