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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 13:57:59 GMT -5
One of the big mysterys of the time bloften said by people who actually worked in the WWF was how the hell did Shawn not get fired for all the crap he did at the time ? I'm sure there were a number of reasons that people will wave off with some bearskin rug theories, but I feel like Vince drifting away from Hogan meant he was possibly wanting another "strong personality" to collaborate with, though even he ran out of patience with Shawn sometimes. Had Vince gone to prison, Shawn would have probably either needed to cool his jets or get sacked. When asked how he would have handled it, Jerry Jarrett, who would have been in charge, said that it'd have been like when JFK got shot. "We'd be real sorry and miss him, but then life would move on., something to that effect. I can buy that, given how firm he was with Lawler at points. I imagine Vince was also just reluctant to get rid of a star he thought had crossover appeal when the business was already not good. I think if Bret had been pushy, too, Vince may have also capitulated to a lot to keep him, but Bret didn't tend to test Vince like that. True but Hogan at least had the draw numbers when he was champ. Shawn was draw wise (match quality was brilliant) a flop
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Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Dec 29, 2019 14:02:55 GMT -5
One of the big mysterys of the time bloften said by people who actually worked in the WWF was how the hell did Shawn not get fired for all the crap he did at the time ? I'm sure there were a number of reasons that people will wave off with some bearskin rug theories, but I feel like Vince drifting away from Hogan meant he was possibly wanting another "strong personality" to collaborate with, though even he ran out of patience with Shawn sometimes. Had Vince gone to prison, Shawn would have probably either needed to cool his jets or get sacked. When asked how he would have handled it, Jerry Jarrett, who would have been in charge, said that it'd have been like when JFK got shot. "We'd be real sorry and miss him, but then life would move on., something to that effect. I can buy that, given how firm he was with Lawler at points. I imagine Vince was also just reluctant to get rid of a star he thought had crossover appeal when the business was already not good. I think if Bret had been pushy, too, Vince may have also capitulated to a lot to keep him, but Bret didn't tend to test Vince like that. Everything I have seen in regards to relationship was friendly. I think Vince trusted Bret, and valued that quality over everything else, and is a big part of why he was pushed. I remember Bret trying to cross over into acting at the time, and it was heavily touted on by the company too. But Vince is a "flash" kinda guy, and Shawn had that in spades. Bret was the Steamboat to Shawn's Savage.
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Post by mauled on Dec 29, 2019 14:13:58 GMT -5
I'm sure there were a number of reasons that people will wave off with some bearskin rug theories, but I feel like Vince drifting away from Hogan meant he was possibly wanting another "strong personality" to collaborate with, though even he ran out of patience with Shawn sometimes. Had Vince gone to prison, Shawn would have probably either needed to cool his jets or get sacked. When asked how he would have handled it, Jerry Jarrett, who would have been in charge, said that it'd have been like when JFK got shot. "We'd be real sorry and miss him, but then life would move on., something to that effect. I can buy that, given how firm he was with Lawler at points. I imagine Vince was also just reluctant to get rid of a star he thought had crossover appeal when the business was already not good. I think if Bret had been pushy, too, Vince may have also capitulated to a lot to keep him, but Bret didn't tend to test Vince like that. Everything I have seen in regards to relationship was friendly. I think Vince trusted Bret, and valued that quality over everything else, and is a big part of why he was pushed. I remember Bret trying to cross over into acting at the time, and it was heavily touted on by the company too. But Vince is a "flash" kinda guy, and Shawn had that in spades. Bret was the Steamboat to Shawn's Savage. That was the reason he took time off I think. To do Lonesome Dove
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Post by johnnyk9 on Dec 29, 2019 16:59:15 GMT -5
When he won it at Summerslam 1997 they made him seem unimportant to
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Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2019 22:43:39 GMT -5
Everyone is a holding champ, if you think about it.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 29, 2019 22:50:33 GMT -5
Vince has done this with a number of guys over the years whom you could tell weren't his first choices to be champ: Bret, Foley, Benoit, CM Punk, etc. They'd win the title, sure, but they rarely got the main spotlight or the chance to shine the way a top babyface champion is typically supposed to, often taking a backseat to whomever Vince was more interested in pushing at the time or being in that weird "you're the champion, but almost never in the main event" spot.
Looking back it was understandable to put, say, Foley in that spot, as it was in the middle of the Austin/Rock era and Foley's win was never meant to be a long term thing. It did not, in my opinion, make much sense to do that with Bret, who was the guy getting reactions and drawing better (especially overseas) during a down time for your company and yet was most often made out to look weaker than much of his top of the card competition.
Like, Bret got the hero's treatment at the end of WM X: he's standing tall as the standard bearer of the "New Generation". Think of how much more impactful the WM XII match with Shawn would've been if Bret had held that standard for most of the two years in between...but no, Vince wanted to switch over the Diesel, instead, and then get the belt back on Bret only as a means to get it to Michaels. Bret would have to settle for often winning by the skin of his teeth or getting the crap kicked out of him, which didn't make him look like as strong a champion as he really should have.
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BorneAgain
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Post by BorneAgain on Dec 29, 2019 23:15:03 GMT -5
Something that's also worth mentioning is that Bret didn't look that strong before he won the title from Diesel. Between November 94 through November 95, while not exactly plummeting down the card, his stock did drop a bit. Feuds with the likes of Jean Pierre Lafitte, Hakushi, Jerry Lawler, while entertaining in their own ways, were clearly not close to main event level programs. Even his stuff with Backlund became a bit tainted after the latter was squashed for the title in 8 seconds, making Bret seem a bit weak for having any sort of even match with him.
Basically, the title reign needed to be the period where Bret was rehabilitated a bit as a star, and instead he once again found himself playing second fiddle to both Shawn's rising status and the Undertaker/Diesel feud. In hindsight Bret turning heel seems so such an obvious move given how little the company seemed interested in protecting him as a top babyface much of the time.
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 29, 2019 23:45:00 GMT -5
The problem Bret had in early 1996 is that he was feuding with guys that there was no serious way he was going over clean. Who would put him over Taker clean, especially if Bret's future post WM was in doubt? And the finish vs. Diesel in the cage was to further the Diesel/Taker feud. The irony of the WM match is that he didn't really put Shawn over. In theory the match was a draw, and Bret was kinda screwed in having to wrestle an OT period.
It's hard to really explain why people loved Bret if you weren't watching. He was the antidote to the various poisons of that era. A nearly year long Yokozuna title run? Bret gets it back and the world felt right again to me as a fan. Diesel is a bust as champion? Bret gets it back and all is right, though even then I could tell they were going to put the title on Shawn at WM (my classmates and I were not thrilled with this prospect, it's no wonder WCW started crushing them).
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Post by mauled on Dec 30, 2019 1:51:31 GMT -5
Something that's also worth mentioning is that Bret didn't look that strong before he won the title from Diesel. Between November 94 through November 95, while not exactly plummeting down the card, his stock did drop a bit. Feuds with the likes of Jean Pierre Lafitte, Hakushi, Jerry Lawler, while entertaining in their own ways, were clearly not close to main event level programs. Even his stuff with Backlund became a bit tainted after the latter was squashed for the title in 8 seconds, making Bret seem a bit weak for having any sort of even match with him. Basically, the title reign needed to be the period where Bret was rehabilitated a bit as a star, and instead he once again found himself playing second fiddle to both Shawn's rising status and the Undertaker/Diesel feud. In hindsight Bret turning heel seems so such an obvious move given how little the company seemed interested in protecting him as a top babyface much of the time. The storyline feuds were terrible. Bret when told about the stolen Ring Jacket storyline, wondered why he didn't just buy another. About the only thing of note was him wrestling a future Kane (and Kevin Nash cosplayer 😏 ) and that's only for that.
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Post by mauled on Dec 30, 2019 1:55:54 GMT -5
The problem Bret had in early 1996 is that he was feuding with guys that there was no serious way he was going over clean. Who would put him over Taker clean, especially if Bret's future post WM was in doubt? And the finish vs. Diesel in the cage was to further the Diesel/Taker feud. The irony of the WM match is that he didn't really put Shawn over. In theory the match was a draw, and Bret was kinda screwed in having to wrestle an OT period. It's hard to really explain why people loved Bret if you weren't watching. He was the antidote to the various poisons of that era. A nearly year long Yokozuna title run? Bret gets it back and the world felt right again to me as a fan. Diesel is a bust as champion? Bret gets it back and all is right, though even then I could tell they were going to put the title on Shawn at WM (my classmates and I were not thrilled with this prospect, it's no wonder WCW started crushing them). Yeah its so crazy looking back but giving Yoko a full year is kind of weird. Then you had Lex challenging for the Title. I remember as a kid thinking, where is Bret, why isn't he allowed a chance to be champion. What's funny is that feuds with Owen and the Stone Cold had Bret knocking it out if the park even when he wasn't Champion 🤷♂️
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Post by evilone on Dec 30, 2019 5:59:49 GMT -5
Had Bret come to singles only five years earlier we would have never seen him as WWF champ. Had he come five years later than he did we would have never seen him as WWF champ either. Bret became the champ cause Vince had no one at the time while he was still looking for new Hogan. Bret did have lot of support from guys that had Vince's ear and thus we have Bret as a reliable champ. Bret was Macho Man 2.0 pretty much, trusted workhorse that can carry any show but according to Vince it didn't have it factor. According to Vince Diesel/Shawn was the it factor after botched attempt at Luger.
Diesel/Shawn were the foundation of Attitude despite Austin being a penthouse but Bret was all the bearing walls waiting for every curtain wall to be placed and all the furniture to get in.
Macho did the right thing jumping to WCW in late '94, Bret did a mistake for not jumping back then. He has invested himself in Vince too much but he couldn't top Shawn in Vince's ear. Had he jumped to WCW when he was supposed to nWo might have looked a lot different.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 30, 2019 6:14:05 GMT -5
Macho did the right thing jumping to WCW in late '94, Bret did a mistake for not jumping back then. He has invested himself in Vince too much but he couldn't top Shawn in Vince's ear. Had he jumped to WCW when he was supposed to nWo might have looked a lot different. Hogan would have buried him in 1994 rather than 1998, and we wouldn't have gotten the Canadian heel run where he was firing on all cylinder in ring and on the mic.
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Post by sfvega on Dec 30, 2019 6:33:33 GMT -5
One of the big mysterys of the time bloften said by people who actually worked in the WWF was how the hell did Shawn not get fired for all the crap he did at the time ? I'm sure there were a number of reasons that people will wave off with some bearskin rug theories, but I feel like Vince drifting away from Hogan meant he was possibly wanting another "strong personality" to collaborate with, though even he ran out of patience with Shawn sometimes. Had Vince gone to prison, Shawn would have probably either needed to cool his jets or get sacked. When asked how he would have handled it, Jerry Jarrett, who would have been in charge, said that it'd have been like when JFK got shot. "We'd be real sorry and miss him, but then life would move on., something to that effect. I can buy that, given how firm he was with Lawler at points. I imagine Vince was also just reluctant to get rid of a star he thought had crossover appeal when the business was already not good. I think if Bret had been pushy, too, Vince may have also capitulated to a lot to keep him, but Bret didn't tend to test Vince like that.I don't buy that. Vince bent over backwards to keep Shawn when he had a laundry list of reasons to move on. But with Bret, he reneged on that contract when lots of people say that he took the money and spent an exorbitant amount on the Tyson appearances. He would have cleaned his bank account out entirely before telling Shawn he's a free agent, go sign with WCW. It wasn't a case of Bret needing to be a problem child like Shawn in order to get the squeaky wheel gets the grease treatment. Vince very clearly showed where both lied with him (no pun intended, Shawn). Bret was replaceable to Vince, Shawn was not.
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Post by mauled on Dec 30, 2019 7:13:12 GMT -5
Had Bret come to singles only five years earlier we would have never seen him as WWF champ. Had he come five years later than he did we would have never seen him as WWF champ either. Bret became the champ cause Vince had no one at the time while he was still looking for new Hogan. Bret did have lot of support from guys that had Vince's ear and thus we have Bret as a reliable champ. Bret was Macho Man 2.0 pretty much, trusted workhorse that can carry any show but according to Vince it didn't have it factor. According to Vince Diesel/Shawn was the it factor after botched attempt at Luger. Diesel/Shawn were the foundation of Attitude despite Austin being a penthouse but Bret was all the bearing walls waiting for every curtain wall to be placed and all the furniture to get in. Macho did the right thing jumping to WCW in late '94, Bret did a mistake for not jumping back then. He has invested himself in Vince too much but he couldn't top Shawn in Vince's ear. Had he jumped to WCW when he was supposed to nWo might have looked a lot different. I would argue the best thing to happen to both Shawn as a person and the WWF as a company was his back injury. Otherwise he would've politicked to get the belt back and kept the Rock buried in the mid card. Bret came out of the Montreal Screwjob the most famous wrestler on the Planet and Hogan had hin buried in WCW. You think it would've been any different in 1994 ?
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Post by mauled on Dec 30, 2019 7:16:19 GMT -5
I'm sure there were a number of reasons that people will wave off with some bearskin rug theories, but I feel like Vince drifting away from Hogan meant he was possibly wanting another "strong personality" to collaborate with, though even he ran out of patience with Shawn sometimes. Had Vince gone to prison, Shawn would have probably either needed to cool his jets or get sacked. When asked how he would have handled it, Jerry Jarrett, who would have been in charge, said that it'd have been like when JFK got shot. "We'd be real sorry and miss him, but then life would move on., something to that effect. I can buy that, given how firm he was with Lawler at points. I imagine Vince was also just reluctant to get rid of a star he thought had crossover appeal when the business was already not good. I think if Bret had been pushy, too, Vince may have also capitulated to a lot to keep him, but Bret didn't tend to test Vince like that.I don't buy that. Vince bent over backwards to keep Shawn when he had a laundry list of reasons to move on. But with Bret, he reneged on that contract when lots of people say that he took the money and spent an exorbitant amount on the Tyson appearances. He would have cleaned his bank account out entirely before telling Shawn he's a free agent, go sign with WCW. It wasn't a case of Bret needing to be a problem child like Shawn in order to get the squeaky wheel gets the grease treatment. Vince very clearly showed where both lied with him (no pun intended, Shawn). Bret was replaceable to Vince, Shawn was not. Prichard confirmed Shawn tried to leave to goto WCW and join with his buddies but Vince refused to let him out his contract. That probably saved Shawn's life. No way was he kicking his drug habit hanging with Hall. There's no way he's getting thr WCW belt while Hogan is there with his creative control either
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Post by doguncle on Dec 30, 2019 7:28:53 GMT -5
I think Bret has a legitimate gripe. He was the champion when others failed, were unreliable or not ready yet, never the first thought as a champion.
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Post by cabbageboy on Dec 30, 2019 10:20:58 GMT -5
In a way I don't think Bret was ever really the same after the Iron Man match. He wasn't around for 6 months after that, a time in which WWF business cratered and WCW was crushing them in the ratings. That's the sad thing about Vince wanting Bret out in Nov. 1997. What was he exactly losing? A 40 year old guy that spent half of 1996 not being around? Or spent some months in 1997 on the shelf with knee surgery? Bret's last full year in the WWF was 1995, which is kind of hard to imagine. Bret was someone who was really kind of starting the downside of his career and there wasn't a place for him going forward. His 1998 WCW work is a bit underrated to me, but it was far beneath what he had been doing, and by 1999 he had yet another injury (groin) and then Owen's death had him away from wrestling for a long while. Then of course Goldberg ended his career for good at Starrcade 1999.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Dec 30, 2019 10:53:35 GMT -5
Honestly though didn't Bret being this up after the fact as a semi worked explanation for his heat with Shawn? At the time I think he wanted to be booked stronger so Shawn beating him would mean more. I think it was only after the losing his smile thing and the rematch being taken off the table that Bret started to complain about how he been booked in early 96.
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Post by mauled on Dec 30, 2019 12:12:36 GMT -5
Honestly though didn't Bret being this up after the fact as a semi worked explanation for his heat with Shawn? At the time I think he wanted to be booked stronger so Shawn beating him would mean more. I think it was only after the losing his smile thing and the rematch being taken off the table that Bret started to complain about how he been booked in early 96. According to both Bret and Shawn they didnt actively hate each other until Brets IYH match with Sid. The one Shawn is on commentary for. They both worked themselves into a shoot
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Post by spagett on Dec 30, 2019 12:32:15 GMT -5
What was always galling to me as a Bret Hart guy was that Vince would drop him whenever he could and go with someone else and the guy Vince chose instead never worked anyway.
He takes the belt off Bret to give it to Hogan but by 1993 babyface WWF champion Hogan is a busted flush and a failure.
Bret is pushed down the card and Lex Luger is clearly the guy Vince has chosen as his new top star but the fans just don't take to him.
Then he takes it off Bret to give to Diesel and we get a year of horrible title matches and to this day I think he's still the lowest drawing WWF champ ever.
He takes the belt off Bret to give to Shawn Michaels and although his matches were great he was a total bomb as champion and WCW was kicking their ass all year in 1996 with Shawn as the top guy.
Like, it would be one thing to take the title off Bret to give it to Austin or Rock, but this wasn't the case.
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