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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 14:58:07 GMT -5
Black and Murphy showed last week it's still possible to have a great match without relying on finisher kickouts.
Speaking of Black, has anybody kicked out of Black Mass yet? I want to say Ciampa did, but I can't remember.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 15:03:24 GMT -5
Black and Murphy showed last week it's still possible to have a great match without relying on finisher kickouts. Speaking of Black, has anybody kicked out of Black Mass yet? I want to say Ciampa did, but I can't remember. It was a breath of fresh air. Not sure about Black Mass. I know the Helluva Kick has been really protected too, shockingly.
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Post by eJm on Jan 5, 2020 15:19:42 GMT -5
Remember when they were not having anyone kick out of the F5 so that Roman Reigns would look strong when he eventually faced Brock? The start of Braun Strowman being ruined. And it wasn't so Roman could kick out of 1 either. He ended up kicking out of like 4. He didn’t kick out of 4, don’t be silly. He kicked out of 6.
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Post by 111111 on Jan 5, 2020 15:23:40 GMT -5
They're not "finishers" anymore, they're special or signature moves.
I'm not as bothered by that as seemingly everyone else.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jan 5, 2020 16:00:41 GMT -5
Doesn't the Rough Ryder have an absurdly high win % when hit? Yeah, nobody is kicking out of Ryder’s finish because he’s not in a position to have matches where finishers are getting kicked out of. So when he wrestles on Main Event and hits the Rough Ryder, it’s because he’s winning the match.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Jan 5, 2020 16:06:59 GMT -5
I'd say it's far more exciting to have the tease of missed finishers, and the idea that if one connects then it could be all over, rather than kicking out of several. Some of Kenny Omega's matches have been built entirely around that concept and it worked wonders. And then when you get matches over that way, if you do end up having a rare match with the kickout then it's more of an actual shock.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 19:06:17 GMT -5
Man, to think that THE COBRA was the most protected finisher in recent history is insane! The pop when Bryan kicked out of this at the Chamber was insane. Back in the day; I hated that this stupid move was Santino’s finisher. I felt it was insulting to my intelligence and that any wrestler who lost to it was “buried” After growing up and realising I shouldn’t be taking wrestling so seriously, I realize now that this is wrestling at its absolute finest. It’s silly, it’s carny and because of how much protection it got, when Bryan finally kicked out of it, it was a “HOLY SHIT” moment. It’s really no different to the people’s ebow, the Worm and all those other simply theatrical moves that were super over.
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Post by Indiana Miz on Jan 5, 2020 20:57:18 GMT -5
When Jinder Mahal kicked out of an AA on Smackdown I knew we were going too far in the wrong direction.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 5, 2020 21:02:31 GMT -5
Man, to think that THE COBRA was the most protected finisher in recent history is insane! I mean it's really not? the helluva kick almost always ends the match after it's hit. The f5 has been protected as hell outside of the Roman match where he kicked out of 6. the end of Days hasn't been kicked out of. Hell Jinder was ending matches with one Khallas (after the Bollywood Boys interfered) the issue isn't that people are or aren't kicking out of moves... it's generally the ones that are protected don't particularly have this big spark to them to make it seem like a death move or aren't hyped as being killshots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2020 21:07:59 GMT -5
Chris Jericho's always been the absolute king of this problem to me. Guy has a million finishers and during his WWE run they basically all became completely useless. The Judas Effect is being very well-protected so far though.
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Post by Dub H on Jan 5, 2020 23:47:27 GMT -5
Man, to think that THE COBRA was the most protected finisher in recent history is insane! I mean it's really not? the helluva kick almost always ends the match after it's hit. The f5 has been protected as hell outside of the Roman match where he kicked out of 6. the end of Days hasn't been kicked out of. Hell Jinder was ending matches with one Khallas (after the Bollywood Boys interfered) the issue isn't that people are or aren't kicking out of moves... it's generally the ones that are protected don't particularly have this big spark to them to make it seem like a death move or aren't hyped as being killshots. In relative terms ,Neville's Red Arrow was never kicked out in WWE.Including Cena Or out of wwe but different subject
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Post by Cyno on Jan 6, 2020 0:59:38 GMT -5
I like guys having a suite of moves they can to end a match rather than just the one move you know will put away someone. It makes things less predictable. Finisher kick outs can be pretty dramatic and I'd prefer to see them limited to big time matches.
That said, matches where dudes practically spam their big moves feel pretty cheap. The Fiend vs. Seth Rollins where Seth used roughly one gazillion curb stomps comes to mind. Or that Brock vs. Roman match where Roman took like 6 F5's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2020 1:09:55 GMT -5
I like guys having a suite of moves they can to end a match rather than just the one move you know will put away someone. It makes things less predictable. Finisher kick outs can be pretty dramatic and I'd prefer to see them limited to big time matches. That said, matches where dudes practically spam their big moves feel pretty cheap. The Fiend vs. Seth Rollins where Seth used roughly one gazillion curb stomps comes to mind. Or that Brock vs. Roman match where Roman took like 6 F5's. The F-5 is in this really bizarre state where in theory they protect it, but they started doing so only years into Brock's formula and just stop doing so any time Brock has a big match, so instead the move still looks weak as hell and it just makes everyone who gets pinned by it look like total shit. Yeah, one of these alone is enough to beat Kofi, but so what when it took like six of the things to beat Roman?
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Post by celtics543 on Jan 6, 2020 6:55:41 GMT -5
I apologize but I couldn't disagree more with this. It's part of the reason that I really don't watch anymore and just stay casually updated on this site after being a huge fan for about 25 years. If you want to watch circue de soleil and see stunts and stuff that's great but wrestling should be about stories and making people be able to believe what they're seeing. It's not worth arguing but I'd argue that 96-2002 and the 80's were times of great storytelling and that was the height of wrestling popularity. You bring up NXT now and how people are popping for super kick exchanges but that's the same show that is drawing less than a 1.0 rating on tv. Guys and girls should protect their finishers and those should be match enders. When Rock kicked out of a stunner it was an epic moment. If it happened every week no one would care. Ehhh, bringing up ratings in a day where more and more people cut the cord, or watch through ever evolving and expanding internet sources is a weaksauce excuse to drag on nxt. That's like saying since relatively few people watch NJPW compared to WWE/F in its heyday that the wrestling isn't comparable. Honestly, I've watched wrestling since 95 or so and NXT/AEW/NJPW are the height of wrestling to me, match quality wise anyways. Fine we don't have to talk about ratings but in the 80's, late 90's and early 2000's wrestling was everywhere in pop culture. Hogan was on the cover of Sports Illustrated. I don't think that's the case anymore. Steve Austin was on magazine covers, doing crossover roles in tv shows, Rock blew up in Hollywood, WWE had restaurants in New York, etc. There was a lot going on with wrestling and it was very much a part of the pop culture of the time. Now someone might reference Cena but he's basically done with wrestling. I don't think anyone currently has crossed over into anything close to a pop culture icon. So ignore the ratings and tell me that a 1.0 today is equal to a 5.5 in 2000 because of cord cutters but if you're trying to tell me wrestling is as popular today as it was in the 80's or 1998-2002 then I'm sorry but I'm just not buying it. The other thing is this whole "quality of wrestling" BS that gets thrown around. Wrestling is only as good as the story that's being told. Fancy moves and whatever are fine but if the story sucks then the wrestling sucks. Bret Hart was every bit the worker in 1985 that he was in 1995 and no one cared about him because there wasn't a story behind him. The Godfather got bigger pops for doing the Ho Train splash in the corner than Seth Rollins has ever gotten for doing five flips and a a corkscrew off the top rope. The Worm got bigger pops than any match that Zack Sabre jr has ever been in despite the fact that he's supposed to be a technical wizard. It's probably just my taste but a heatless match with two guys who known how to work doesn't do it for me. I'd rather watch Hogan/Warrior from WM 6 or Hogan/Rock from WM 18, two matches that are far from technical masterpieces but tell a story and actually have purpose. You're free to like what you like and I'm glad you enjoy the wrestling today but it just doesn't do it for me anymore. Guys just spamming finishers and superkicks while mixing in a flip off the ropes might be what the, dwindling, wrestling audience is looking for but I'll take some storytelling over that any day.
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Post by sunnytaker on Jan 7, 2020 13:41:18 GMT -5
i'd like to see wrestlers have a secondary finisher and/or a submission finisher as well. like a normal finisher for a regular match, then save the other for "when they really need it" if the first one fails to get the job done. to show how desperate they are to win that they have to bust out THAT move.
at least it erases the "wow that was a 360 superplex falcon arrow through a flaming table! oh they kicked out because he didn't use his standing dropkick finisher on them. oh there it is, match over." factor when something that looks more impactful than the actual finisher doesn't get the win.
except for the rollup- that's pretty much finishes anyone.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2020 13:46:44 GMT -5
Technically, the rollup is one of the most devastating finishers now in the company.
Thanks, 24/7 belt.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jan 7, 2020 13:53:04 GMT -5
Technically, the rollup is one of the most devastating finishers now in the company. Thanks, 24/7 belt. The Diva division made that move,
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