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Post by Chris the Bambikiller on Mar 20, 2020 2:06:53 GMT -5
I hope Jake hasn't started drinking again.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 20, 2020 2:46:30 GMT -5
Sigh. THIS discussion again. Whoever is WWE Champion is irrelevant because the title is a prop to further storylines. When ratings were low in the mid 90s, it wasn't anything to do with Bret or Shawn. It was the company. When they changed with the times and rebranded it to the Attitude Era, they started raking in the cash. That was the difference maker. Not "oh they changed the WWE Champion..." Absolutely. Wrestling lives and dies on the quality of its overall product, and the product was 90% garbage. They could've had peak Hogan, Austin, or Rock as the champions and they'd still have been running high school gyms.
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Welfare Willis
Crow T. Robot
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Posts: 44,259
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Post by Welfare Willis on Mar 20, 2020 3:53:51 GMT -5
"Now, Lance Archer, there's a future champ you could set your watch to!" Still like him more than Steinbreinner.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2020 10:47:54 GMT -5
BREAKING NEWS
DEVELOPING AS WE LEARN MORE...
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Post by grungesmurf on Mar 20, 2020 11:22:40 GMT -5
🤷🏾♂️Tell’m Jake
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Post by KAMALARAMBO: BOOMSHAKALAKA!!! on Mar 20, 2020 15:24:51 GMT -5
Jake’s opinions can be fun to hear as he has a great mind. Even if you don’t agree with him you can at least see where he’s coming from as an old school guy.
But on calling HBK and Bret as the worst drawing champs he’s just not right about that. It’s kind of weird how he talks about how guys have to be like 300 pounds to be believable and omits that we had a 300 pound champ during the same time. Diesel and his drawing abilities sucked ass. Yoko arguably didn’t do much better. I thought both guys were pretty fun champs (Diesel vs. Bulldog notwithstanding), but neither one kept all those Hulkamaniacs around or brought in a ton of new fans.
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Post by Hit Girl on Mar 20, 2020 15:25:42 GMT -5
Sorry Jake, but no.
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Post by Captain Stud Muffin (BLM) on Mar 20, 2020 16:00:15 GMT -5
WWF wasn’t the only thing getting hammered during the Bret/Shawn feud. So was Jake.
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
Chi-Town!!!
Posts: 2,378
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Post by Ozman on Mar 21, 2020 12:27:04 GMT -5
I think the WWF's financial woes from 1996-98 are exaggerated. I did in fact check the live attendance numbers and of the 22 months WCW was whipping them in the ratings (June 1996-April 1998) the WWF actually had better attendance in 15 of those 22 months. PPV numbers also increased during that time period. The ticket buying public did not desert the WWF. Guy Evans talked about that in the Nitro book, that for all of Bischoff's bluster about Monday night ratings the actual metrics aside from that told a different story. Been saying this for years. TV ratings are the least important thing when it comes to actual money earned. PPV, live attendance and merchandise are more important to your bottom line than TV ratings. The only time TV ratings really matter is when negotiating your TV deal with the TV network. IMO, Bischoff is the one who made TV ratings the most talked about factor when it comes to success. Before Bischoff, TV ratings weren’t talked about all that much by the wrestling media. After Bischoff, every minor rise or dip in TV ratings is over analyzed. This still happens today, even when more and more young fans are watching less and less TV, getting their content via streaming, social media, and YouTube. Yet, for some reason, a 0.1 ratings rise or dip for Raw, Smackdown, NXT, or Dynamite is still a big deal in some wrestling circles. It ain’t 1998 anymore!!!
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Post by horseface on Mar 21, 2020 12:33:50 GMT -5
He is cherry picking the shit out of things here.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Mar 21, 2020 15:38:05 GMT -5
People like Jake really do need to keep on mind correlation is not causation and that the WWF had far deeper problems that had nothing to do with any of the guys on top in the new generation era. Bret, Shawn, Taker and Diesel weren't the ones who got the WWF embroiled in drug scandals, ringboy sex abuse allegations and they didn't make the government investigate and prosecute Vince, keeping drugs fresh in everyones mind whenever they saw the WWF's programming. They didn't book the WWF to be dependent on Hogan and burn out the fanbase on his formula, they didn't cause Warrior to flop and leave them with no backup plan nor did they send Hulk out on the disastrous media tour where he lied, lied and better lied when an 'I'm sorry' would have mitigated a lot of the damage. They didn't make Vince waste a tonne of money on bodybuilding, further tarnishing the WWF brand in the process, and they were not to blame for the drastic costcutting that saw the roster gutted and replaced with guys who were either green, badly booked or simply nowhere near as good as those they replaced in a short space of time, leaving Bret, Shawn and Taker as the last guys standing from the late 80s and early 90s.
What they did do however, is sell the brand outside of the US, they (along with Bulldog, Razor and others) appealed internationally in a way that Hogan did not, they kept the WWF alive as the drug scandals faded and the booking mindset responsible for a lot of the problems the WWF had on that front was replaced. They may not have righted the ship, but things would probably have been a lot worse without them.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Mar 21, 2020 15:44:24 GMT -5
People like Jake really do need to keep on mind correlation is not causation and that the WWF had far deeper problems that had nothing to do with any of the guys on top in the new generation era. Bret, Shawn, Taker and Diesel weren't the ones who got the WWF embroiled in drug scandals, ringboy sex abuse allegations and they didn't make the government investigate and prosecute Vince, keeping drugs fresh in everyones mind whenever they saw the WWF's programming. They didn't book the WWF to be dependent on Hogan and burn out the fanbase on his formula, they didn't cause Warrior to flop and leave them with no backup plan nor did they Hulk out on the disastrous media tour. They didn't make Vince waste a tonne of money on bodybuilding, further tarnishing the WWF brand in the process, and they were not to blame for the drastic costcutting that saw the roster gutted and replaced with guys who were either green, badly booked or simply nowhere near as good as those they replaced in a short space of time, leaving Bret, Shawn and Taker as the last guys standing from the early 80s and 90s. Bret, Shawn, 'Taker, and a handful of others were like gold lace on a burlap sack. They were great, but nothing could disguise just how sorry a state the company was in at the time.
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Post by I'm Team Bayley and Indi on Mar 21, 2020 15:48:46 GMT -5
WWE's financial woes where so bad in 1997 that they offered Ultimate Warrior a 750k contract
I think the Bret Hart 20 year contract was buyer's remorse from Vince
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Post by Terry McConkey on Mar 21, 2020 15:58:26 GMT -5
To be fair, Jake was going through one of the worst addiction phases of his life when Bret and Shawn were on top. I think it's jealousy more than anything as Jake had tried and failed to make a comeback (the basis behind "Austin 3:16") around the same time.
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Post by Chrome the Sciencer on Mar 21, 2020 18:08:55 GMT -5
Wrestlers can be such size queens lol
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fw91
Patti Mayonnaise
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Posts: 39,146
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Post by fw91 on Mar 21, 2020 21:03:56 GMT -5
Seriously though in time period. If not Bret and Shawn, who would've made good business?
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,627
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Post by cjh on Mar 21, 2020 21:21:30 GMT -5
I think the WWF's financial woes from 1996-98 are exaggerated. I did in fact check the live attendance numbers and of the 22 months WCW was whipping them in the ratings (June 1996-April 1998) the WWF actually had better attendance in 15 of those 22 months. PPV numbers also increased during that time period. The ticket buying public did not desert the WWF. Guy Evans talked about that in the Nitro book, that for all of Bischoff's bluster about Monday night ratings the actual metrics aside from that told a different story. Been saying this for years. TV ratings are the least important thing when it comes to actual money earned. PPV, live attendance and merchandise are more important to your bottom line than TV ratings. The only time TV ratings really matter is when negotiating your TV deal with the TV network. IMO, Bischoff is the one who made TV ratings the most talked about factor when it comes to success. Before Bischoff, TV ratings weren’t talked about all that much by the wrestling media. After Bischoff, every minor rise or dip in TV ratings is over analyzed. This still happens today, even when more and more young fans are watching less and less TV, getting their content via streaming, social media, and YouTube. Yet, for some reason, a 0.1 ratings rise or dip for Raw, Smackdown, NXT, or Dynamite is still a big deal in some wrestling circles. It ain’t 1998 anymore!!! That was true, but today, the U.S. TV contracts are the single biggest revenue sources for WWE and AEW with nothing else coming close.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Mar 21, 2020 21:24:23 GMT -5
Seriously though in time period. If not Bret and Shawn, who would've made good business? If he wasn't such a screw up I would say Scott Hall/Razor Ramon would've been the best choice with what he brought to the table. Good worker, good size, very over, marketable, larger then life. could work with anyone. He was too unreliable to be pushed that high but from a talent stand point he had everything you would want your top babyface champion to have. The Cuban drug lord Scarface knockoff gimmick isn't exactly something you would want your lead face to have and I guess that could be a problem like it was for Shawn being a male stripper in that position but IIRC they started to move away from that once Razor turned face and just made him more of a tough guy street wise latin face.
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
Chi-Town!!!
Posts: 2,378
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Post by Ozman on Mar 21, 2020 21:28:08 GMT -5
Been saying this for years. TV ratings are the least important thing when it comes to actual money earned. PPV, live attendance and merchandise are more important to your bottom line than TV ratings. The only time TV ratings really matter is when negotiating your TV deal with the TV network. IMO, Bischoff is the one who made TV ratings the most talked about factor when it comes to success. Before Bischoff, TV ratings weren’t talked about all that much by the wrestling media. After Bischoff, every minor rise or dip in TV ratings is over analyzed. This still happens today, even when more and more young fans are watching less and less TV, getting their content via streaming, social media, and YouTube. Yet, for some reason, a 0.1 ratings rise or dip for Raw, Smackdown, NXT, or Dynamite is still a big deal in some wrestling circles. It ain’t 1998 anymore!!! That was true, but today, the U.S. TV contracts are the single biggest revenue sources for WWE and AEW with nothing else coming close. This is true. I was implying that when I said TV ratings only really matter when negotiating TV contracts. The weekly nitpicking of TV ratings is pretty pointless.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,627
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Post by cjh on Mar 21, 2020 21:59:48 GMT -5
That was true, but today, the U.S. TV contracts are the single biggest revenue sources for WWE and AEW with nothing else coming close. This is true. I was implying that when I said TV ratings only really matter when negotiating TV contracts. The weekly nitpicking of TV ratings is pretty pointless. You said PPV, merch, and live attendance were more important. They've really never been more insignificant. Those numbers are all pretty bad right now for WWE, and it doesn't matter because the TV deals are so big.
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