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Post by Kevin Hamilton on May 5, 2020 8:09:43 GMT -5
Anakin may've been her biological father, but to her all he'd really be is the scourge of the galaxy who mass murdered in the cause of a fascist empire. Vader was the guy who personally tortured her to get information about the Rebellion she dedicated her life to&then was complicit in the extinction of every living thing on the planet that was the only home she'd every known.
I don't care how close she got to Luke, I can't see her ever having the warm&fuzzies for Anakin/Vader even if the Force decided he was redeemed. If she wasn't outright horrified or ashamed of Anakin being her father, I feel like she'd at best tolerate Luke's veneration of him even as it made her a little queasy.
Cuz she didn't grow up without parents like Luke (though Luke has always kind of short changed Owen&Beru. They did their best.) Leia had a loving home and family that raised her to be the feisty, revolutionary princess she was. She might have had Anakin's midichlorian nature in there but the nurture she got on Alderaan made her who she was.
Vader was her father, but he never even did the minimal amount of doing right by her that he gave Luke. He didn't raise her, teach her, or any of that.
One man did.
Leia's actual dad, unsung hero of the series, Bail Organa.
That man deserves more respect.
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Post by cabbageboy on May 5, 2020 8:21:02 GMT -5
Gee, considering Anakin's lack of interest in Leia you might think George Lucas was making this stuff up as he was going along and just needed a 3rd movie plot twist to end any ideas of Luke/Leia being a thing and pave the way for Han/Leia instead.
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Spider2024
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Post by Spider2024 on May 5, 2020 8:22:21 GMT -5
Gee, considering Anakin's lack of interest in Leia you might think George Lucas was making this stuff up as he was going along and just needed a 3rd movie plot twist to end any ideas of Luke/Leia being a thing and pave the way for Han/Leia instead. "I want my 8 bucks back!"  |
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Post by dirtyoldman on May 5, 2020 9:46:55 GMT -5
Gee, considering Anakin's lack of interest in Leia you might think George Lucas was making this stuff up as he was going along and just needed a 3rd movie plot twist to end any ideas of Luke/Leia being a thing and pave the way for Han/Leia instead. Hey, he got away with it...pretty much |
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Post by BorneAgain on May 5, 2020 10:37:49 GMT -5
Gee, considering Anakin's lack of interest in Leia you might think George Lucas was making this stuff up as he was going along and just needed a 3rd movie plot twist to end any ideas of Luke/Leia being a thing and pave the way for Han/Leia instead. That's basically accepted at this point. The "Other" mentioned in Empire was included to put Luke's survival in the movie in doubt for the audience and to focus on the former come the sequel trilogy. By the time ROTJ was being made and Lucas decided he was done doing any more sequels, he basically combined Leia and the "Other" to wrap up the story with no loose ends. |
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2020 10:50:22 GMT -5
Gee, considering Anakin's lack of interest in Leia you might think George Lucas was making this stuff up as he was going along and just needed a 3rd movie plot twist to end any ideas of Luke/Leia being a thing and pave the way for Han/Leia instead. That's basically accepted at this point. The "Other" mentioned in Empire was included to put Luke's survival in the movie in doubt for the audience and to focus on the former come the sequel trilogy. By the time ROTJ was being made and Lucas decided he was done doing any more sequels, he basically combined Leia and the "Other" to wrap up the story with no loose ends. What I've come to learn (man, haven't listened to Star Wars Minute in a long while) is that the sequel trilogy was going to be about Luke taking off to find his lost sibling (who would not have been Leia).... ........while also pursuing Palpatine, who (turns out, heh) would've survived ROTJ. Folks outraged that Palpy was in RotS (and apparently now outraged in retrospect at Dark Empire?) would be keen to realize that this was not a new concept and existed before ROTJ took its final form. |
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Post by BorneAgain on May 5, 2020 10:57:29 GMT -5
That's basically accepted at this point. The "Other" mentioned in Empire was included to put Luke's survival in the movie in doubt for the audience and to focus on the former come the sequel trilogy. By the time ROTJ was being made and Lucas decided he was done doing any more sequels, he basically combined Leia and the "Other" to wrap up the story with no loose ends. What I've come to learn (man, haven't listened to Star Wars Minute in a long while) is that the sequel trilogy was going to be about Luke taking off to find his lost sibling (who would not have been Leia).... ........while also pursuing Palpatine, who (turns out, heh) would've survived ROTJ. Folks outraged that Palpy was in RotS (and apparently now outraged in retrospect at Dark Empire?) would be keen to realize that this was not a new concept and existed before ROTJ took its final form. Honestly Star Wars as a series at several points looked a lot different depending on which stage of production a film was in. Before the making of Empire there was discussion about simply having various films set in the universe that were unconnected to the main story (with something like a SW take on a 007 movie even being thrown around). You can find old statements by Lucas saying there would be 12 films at one point. The GL claim of just the original trilogy and a prequel trilogy arguably didn't even really crystallize until around 1982, and even the latter was by no means given how sick he was of SW at that point. |
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Post by Hit Girl on May 5, 2020 11:08:46 GMT -5
Lucas had no plan beyond the first film. Even his claims that he had a backstory sketched out were probably nonsense.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on May 5, 2020 11:08:54 GMT -5
Gee, considering Anakin's lack of interest in Leia you might think George Lucas was making this stuff up as he was going along and just needed a 3rd movie plot twist to end any ideas of Luke/Leia being a thing and pave the way for Han/Leia instead. That's basically accepted at this point. The "Other" mentioned in Empire was included to put Luke's survival in the movie in doubt for the audience and to focus on the former come the sequel trilogy. By the time ROTJ was being made and Lucas decided he was done doing any more sequels, he basically combined Leia and the "Other" to wrap up the story with no loose ends. He then turned around and created another candidate for "the other" when he created the character of Ahsoka Tano. Before you say that Dave Filoni created her for The Clone Wars cartoon, Filoni himself said as he was working on the development of the animated movie that acted as the pilot of the series that George mentioned in an offhanded manner that Anakin had an apprentice named Ashla (resurrecting George's original name for the Jedi) that they were going to introduce in the movie. They eventually changed her name (as well as replacing Alpha-17 with Rex) and ran with it. Sure, Filoni has more or less adopted the character as his own (especially since George no longer has any say in how things are run), but let's be honest, if he had created her she would have a wolf-related name. Honestly, from what Filoni had said I think the Rebels episode "Twilight of the Apprentice" went down the way it did just to specifically eliminate Ahsoka as a candidate for "the other". Sure, Vader actually tried to recruit her, called out to her after she injured him, and appeared to think about it for several moments when she elected to stay with him, but in the end he elected to try to kill her anyways. |
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Post by BorneAgain on May 5, 2020 11:19:07 GMT -5
That's basically accepted at this point. The "Other" mentioned in Empire was included to put Luke's survival in the movie in doubt for the audience and to focus on the former come the sequel trilogy. By the time ROTJ was being made and Lucas decided he was done doing any more sequels, he basically combined Leia and the "Other" to wrap up the story with no loose ends. He then turned around and created another candidate for "the other" when he created the character of Ahsoka Tano. Before you say that Dave Filoni created her for The Clone Wars cartoon, Filoni himself said as he was working on the development of the animated movie that acted as the pilot of the series that George mentioned in an offhanded manner that Anakin had an apprentice named Ashla (resurrecting George's original name for the Jedi) that they were going to introduce in the movie. They eventually changed her name (as well as replacing Alpha-17 with Rex) and ran with it. Sure, Filoni has more or less adopted the character as his own (especially since George no longer has any say in how things are run), but let's be honest, if he had created her she would have a wolf-related name. Honestly, from what Filoni had said I think the Rebels episode "Twilight of the Apprentice" went down the way it did just to specifically eliminate Ahsoka as a candidate for "the other". Sure, Vader actually tried to recruit her, called out to her after she injured him, and appeared to think about it for several moments when she elected to stay with him, but in the end he elected to try to kill her anyways. At the very least it shows just how loose supposedly hard canon really is. Especially in the first 15 or so years of the franchise its telling how many elements later taken on gospel weren't really present. The Marvel SW comics alone paint such a different picture of what pre-ANH canon was that the reason Lucasfilm dubbed various levels of canon becomes obvious. Keep in mind this is what a clone wars era Obi-Wan was portrayed as: {Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}  Or this one which strongly hints at the man on the left being Father Skywalker (meaning apparently Luke's dad was Patrick Stewart with a fro): {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}  Early Star Wars is just filled with this kind of stuff. |
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on May 5, 2020 11:25:43 GMT -5
Lucas had no plan beyond the first film. Even his claims that he had a backstory sketched out were probably nonsense. Actually, that's not true. He certainly did have a plan beyond the first movie. It's how his own Lucasfilm empire came to be. Essentially, Lucas was a very in-demand director after his film American Graffiti was a hit. Studios wanted to get him under contract but he wanted to do his pet project (originally he wanted to do Flash Gordon but could not get the rights). In order to sign George, you had to agree to his pet project. 20th Century Fox was interested in doing it, but he had to forgo a salary to keep the budget manageable. He countered with an offer that granted him all intellectual property rights for Star Wars. Ultimately, Fox only owned the original theatrical release film, but Lucas even had a go around for that one as any edits would be owned by him. Lucas intended to take advantage of this deal by releasing a low-budget sequel. The only characters that would return from the first film were Luke, Leia, and Vader. The novelization of the screenplay is widely available under the title Splinter of the Mind's Eye (it later even came out in a serial comic format). Obviously, Star Wars being THE hit of our lifetime meant that he no longer had to (or should) make a low budget sequel. This means he abandoned his original plans and had to take a different path, but that is not the same as not having a plan. |
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dav
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Post by dav on May 6, 2020 6:12:48 GMT -5
Annoys me that Vader basically told Luke to tell Leia that he was always right about their dad. How about apologising for the genocide of her people and destruction of her homeworld, jackass?
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Post by Hit Girl on May 6, 2020 10:40:02 GMT -5
Annoys me that Vader basically told Luke to tell Leia that he was always right about their dad. How about apologising for the genocide of her people and destruction of her homeworld, jackass? She probably blames Tarkin for that. She mentioned earlier in the first film that Tarkin was holding Vader's leash. |
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dav
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Post by dav on May 6, 2020 10:44:20 GMT -5
Annoys me that Vader basically told Luke to tell Leia that he was always right about their dad. How about apologising for the genocide of her people and destruction of her homeworld, jackass? She probably blames Tarkin for that. She mentioned earlier in the first film that Tarkin was holding Vader's leash. Vader was the man who stood back and let it happen though. Didn't even offer a token protest to the deed. |
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Post by Hit Girl on May 6, 2020 10:51:22 GMT -5
She probably blames Tarkin for that. She mentioned earlier in the first film that Tarkin was holding Vader's leash. Vader was the man who stood back and let it happen though. Didn't even offer a token protest to the deed. He restrained Leia. Might have been a good thing for her. If she tried to intervene, Tarkin might have had her clipped. |
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dav
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Post by dav on May 6, 2020 10:54:57 GMT -5
Vader was the man who stood back and let it happen though. Didn't even offer a token protest to the deed. He restrained Leia. Might have been a good thing for her. If she tried to intervene, Tarkin might have had her clipped. And if he had stepped in, he could have saved billions of lives. He could have stopped it and did nothing. He was as responsible as Tarkin. |
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Post by Hit Girl on May 6, 2020 11:10:51 GMT -5
He restrained Leia. Might have been a good thing for her. If she tried to intervene, Tarkin might have had her clipped. And if he had stepped in, he could have saved billions of lives. He could have stopped it and did nothing. He was as responsible as Tarkin. That's because at that point in the OT he was just a bad guy. Lucas hadn't thought of him being the tragic figure who needed to be redeemed yet. When Lucas wrote the first film, I have no doubt he regarded Darth Vader and Luke's father as two entirely seperate characters. The "certain point of view" stuff was a retcon. Obi Wan twice implies in the first film that "Darth Vader" is the guy's actual name, and not some formal title. He didn't stop the destruction of Alderaan because he was just the SS thug taking orders from the Nazi commander Tarkin. |
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Post by Mike Strike on May 6, 2020 12:55:40 GMT -5
That's basically accepted at this point. The "Other" mentioned in Empire was included to put Luke's survival in the movie in doubt for the audience and to focus on the former come the sequel trilogy. By the time ROTJ was being made and Lucas decided he was done doing any more sequels, he basically combined Leia and the "Other" to wrap up the story with no loose ends. What I've come to learn (man, haven't listened to Star Wars Minute in a long while) is that the sequel trilogy was going to be about Luke taking off to find his lost sibling (who would not have been Leia).... ........while also pursuing Palpatine, who (turns out, heh) would've survived ROTJ. Folks outraged that Palpy was in RotS (and apparently now outraged in retrospect at Dark Empire?) would be keen to realize that this was not a new concept and existed before ROTJ took its final form. Palpatine wouldn't have been killed off in ep6 under that plan. Key detail. |
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Post by Milkman Norm on May 6, 2020 13:02:32 GMT -5
It was Bobby Simone.
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Post by Joe Neglia on May 6, 2020 15:44:04 GMT -5
And if he had stepped in, he could have saved billions of lives. He could have stopped it and did nothing. He was as responsible as Tarkin. That's because at that point in the OT he was just a bad guy. Lucas hadn't thought of him being the tragic figure who needed to be redeemed yet. When Lucas wrote the first film, I have no doubt he regarded Darth Vader and Luke's father as two entirely seperate characters. The "certain point of view" stuff was a retcon. Obi Wan twice implies in the first film that "Darth Vader" is the guy's actual name, and not some formal title. He didn't stop the destruction of Alderaan because he was just the SS thug taking orders from the Nazi commander Tarkin. Guys, it's not necessary to keep "yeah, but" conversations like this going. |
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