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Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Jul 8, 2020 18:03:02 GMT -5
Classic ECW was very much a “you had to be there as it was happening” type of thing. No amount of Dreamer, the Sandman stumbling around and often not making it to the ring, or dudes wearing jean shorts and hitting each other with plunder could recapture it. Then every promotion ever pimped it right into the ground, This is exactly what the problem was with all the reunions. ECW was a product of its time, it would not have worked in any period of history other than the one in which it existed, but WWE (who are still doing it with the "Extreme Rules" branding), TNA, House of Hardcore, Hardcore Homecoming and pretty much anyone else who could continued to use the idea for lazy nostalgia booking, and just flog it all the way into the 2010s, by which time ECW as a concept was a decade out of date and out of step with wrestling and pop culture in general. It became embarrassing watching an industry so totally devoid of new ideas continue to squeeze everything they could out of this one even when they clearly couldn't anymore.
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Post by protuberance on Jul 8, 2020 19:36:57 GMT -5
One of the best things about ECW was they had a lot of "big 2 level" guys while they were still young (Eddie, Benoit, Rey, Malenko, RVD, Lynn, Raven, Sabu, Foley), but we got to see them all advance their careers later on. Seeing these same guys years later didn't have any appeal; they were on TV every week anyways.
So, yes, the first One Night Stand was enough.
And, no, the existence of reunion shows doesn't affect how much I enjoy or not enjoy watching original ECW footage.
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 8, 2020 20:00:24 GMT -5
The passing of time did worse for ECW than nostalgia ever could. Seeing its lasting consequences, greater awareness of how much of a sleazef*** Heyman was, knowing people were out there destroying themselves for someone who was sucking the life out of them for his own gain and left them hung out to dry. I agree with a lot of what you've written. The only part I'd argue with is the "for his own gain" part. As many faults as Heyman has as a human being and a businessman, it's not like he was getting rich off ECW. In fact, its the opposite. When the actual shows, sponsorships, PPVs, merch, etc. wasn't enough to pay the guys, he spent about $4 million of his family's own money trying to keep the company going. At times, even when infusing family cash like that, he still wasn't able to pay the guys, or all the bills, and that's why the company ultimately had to declare bankruptcy. It wasn't a successful business, in any sense. And the people who suffered the worst financially because of its existence were the Heyman family themselves. To me, someone who spends $4 million of their own money to give the guys a place to work isn't taking advantage of anybody. They're actually making one of the biggest sacrifices possible for the sake of the wrestling business by providing the guys with another place to work, and risking their family's savings to do so. Did the guys do a high risk style? Yes. By choice. If they didn't want to do that style, almost every other promotion out there did a less physical style. Any one of the wrestlers could have chosen to wrestle a safer style somewhere else, but they decided they wanted to be a part of the ECW team. Heyman was a terrible businessman. But he didn't do ECW for personal gain. He did it for a large personal loss. Money is not the only form of "gain". Heyman was an egomaniac, and he wanted to be recognized as a supergenius who changed the industry. Don't confuse his obsession with being worshiped by his fanbase with altruism.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 8, 2020 20:06:11 GMT -5
The first ONS should have been it because a lot of the wrestlers only had success in ECW of course they were going to milk it for all it was worth. On another note that Hardcore Justice show was awful. It may have been the fact that i hadn't eaten or drank anything the morning i watched it but that show made me feel physically ill. Some of the guys werent able to use their names like Tony Luke and Kahoneys. Mike Tenay and Taz not being allowed to mention the name ECW despite constantly doing it. Dreamer and Raven ripping off Rock and Mankinds i quit match. Joel Gertner struggling to even walk to ring and then missing his spots. Whatever the hell that tag team match was. The dance off. Fake Blue Meanie. Just an awful show all around. Don't forget FAKE LUPUS! you know... the ECW original that everyone loves... and you can't have a reunion show without Lupus...
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on Jul 8, 2020 20:37:21 GMT -5
Don't confuse his obsession with being worshiped by his fanbase with altruism. I don't believe he has an "obsession with being worshiped by his fanbase." I do believe he lost $4 million of his own money trying to make a company work. If he wanted to make the company "work", as in actually make money and pay its employees, then he wouldn't have gone out of his way to alienate TNN. He wouldn't have refused Billy Corgan's offer to buy ECW. He didn't want to make ECW work, he wanted to make "his vision" work. He wanted to be able to stuff it in the face of all the people who said his ideas sucked and he would never make it while having a thousand hardcore fans behind him chanting "ECW! ECW!". He went broke on an ego trip.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 8, 2020 21:55:55 GMT -5
The passing of time did worse for ECW than nostalgia ever could. Seeing its lasting consequences, greater awareness of how much of a sleazef*** Heyman was, knowing people were out there destroying themselves for someone who was sucking the life out of them for his own gain and left them hung out to dry. I agree with a lot of what you've written. The only part I'd argue with is the "for his own gain" part. As many faults as Heyman has as a human being and a businessman, it's not like he was getting rich off ECW. In fact, its the opposite. When the actual shows, sponsorships, PPVs, merch, etc. wasn't enough to pay the guys, he spent about $4 million of his family's own money trying to keep the company going. At times, even when infusing family cash like that, he still wasn't able to pay the guys, or all the bills, and that's why the company ultimately had to declare bankruptcy. It wasn't a successful business, in any sense. And the people who suffered the worst financially because of its existence were the Heyman family themselves. To me, someone who spends $4 million of their own money to give the guys a place to work isn't taking advantage of anybody. They're actually making one of the biggest sacrifices possible for the sake of the wrestling business by providing the guys with another place to work, and risking their family's savings to do so. Did the guys do a high risk style? Yes. By choice. If they didn't want to do that style, almost every other promotion out there did a less physical style. Any one of the wrestlers could have chosen to wrestle a safer style somewhere else, but they decided they wanted to be a part of the ECW team. Heyman was a terrible businessman. But he didn't do ECW for personal gain. He did it for a large personal loss. Heyman also bilked people out of money and played them for fools. He got Dreamer to put his parents' money into the company, and then turned down a 750k deal because Heyman gave him a big, sobbing show about how if he left ECW would go under. All while Heyman was collecting a WWE contract. Heyman is a con artist who played people and bilked them out of a lot, and it goes well past money in its most basic form.
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Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on Jul 8, 2020 22:04:29 GMT -5
It made me realize that Dreamer sure loved to do that spot where he picked up Beulah and carried her to the back while making that sad face like "I'm the hero. I sacrificed so much." Get outta here with that.
Drink Taker's chew some more.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 8, 2020 22:07:27 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what you've written. The only part I'd argue with is the "for his own gain" part. As many faults as Heyman has as a human being and a businessman, it's not like he was getting rich off ECW. In fact, its the opposite. When the actual shows, sponsorships, PPVs, merch, etc. wasn't enough to pay the guys, he spent about $4 million of his family's own money trying to keep the company going. At times, even when infusing family cash like that, he still wasn't able to pay the guys, or all the bills, and that's why the company ultimately had to declare bankruptcy. It wasn't a successful business, in any sense. And the people who suffered the worst financially because of its existence were the Heyman family themselves. To me, someone who spends $4 million of their own money to give the guys a place to work isn't taking advantage of anybody. They're actually making one of the biggest sacrifices possible for the sake of the wrestling business by providing the guys with another place to work, and risking their family's savings to do so. Did the guys do a high risk style? Yes. By choice. If they didn't want to do that style, almost every other promotion out there did a less physical style. Any one of the wrestlers could have chosen to wrestle a safer style somewhere else, but they decided they wanted to be a part of the ECW team. Heyman was a terrible businessman. But he didn't do ECW for personal gain. He did it for a large personal loss. Heyman also bilked people out of money and played them for fools. He got Dreamer to put his parents' money into the company, and then turned down a 750k deal because Heyman gave him a big, sobbing show about how if he left ECW would go under. All while Heyman was collecting a WWE contract. Heyman is a con artist who played people and bilked them out of a lot, and it goes well past money in its most basic form. He also basically pissed anyone off that might get in the way of his vision... like TNN, where he basically refused to use the people they sent to tape their show which was the first step in TNN basically throwing their hands up and not caring about ECW... and that is far from the first company Heyman pissed off by doing stuff like that.
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Jul 8, 2020 22:29:53 GMT -5
Less the reunions, more trying to blow smoke up everyone's asses that ECW was more about Mysterio and Guerrero and less about bowling balls to the crotch and putting people on crosses.
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Post by Andew9001 on Jul 8, 2020 22:32:46 GMT -5
The first ONS should have been it because a lot of the wrestlers only had success in ECW of course they were going to milk it for all it was worth. On another note that Hardcore Justice show was awful. It may have been the fact that i hadn't eaten or drank anything the morning i watched it but that show made me feel physically ill. Some of the guys werent able to use their names like Tony Luke and Kahoneys. Mike Tenay and Taz not being allowed to mention the name ECW despite constantly doing it. Dreamer and Raven ripping off Rock and Mankinds i quit match. Joel Gertner struggling to even walk to ring and then missing his spots. Whatever the hell that tag team match was. The dance off. Fake Blue Meanie. Just an awful show all around. Don't forget FAKE LUPUS! you know... the ECW original that everyone loves... and you can't have a reunion show without Lupus... Out of all the ECW Originals who get called for these reunion shows i doubt he's ever called first. It's never Lupus. (I know that joke was awful but i had to give it a try) At least Dexter Lumis made something of himself.
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Johnny Flamingo
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Post by Johnny Flamingo on Jul 8, 2020 23:44:36 GMT -5
Just made me hate reunion shows.
The point of ECW was to be cutting edge. ECW was a different show for its time. I still watch and enjoy watching the old shows. The Raven story arch to me, is still the best story arch I have ever seen.
The first reunion shows were OK. Loved them. Good send off to a great company
Had the company stuck around I think it would have become what Ring it Honor was/is.
The reunion shows seem to miss the point of ECW and emphasis just the hardcore aspect
I loved ECW, still do but it served its purpose and should be allowed to have a peaceful death now.
I know some newer fans don’t like it and I don’t expect them to. It was a product of its time and unless you were there it is impossible to recreate that feeling. Heyman served us all a big gulp of Kool Aid and we all drank it down
But we grew up and evolved.
I look at it like I look at my life. It’s fun to look back on it but I’m not the same person I was then. I’m glad I’m not that person anymore. I grew up and that part of me was left behind a long time ago.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jul 9, 2020 0:03:41 GMT -5
I think it was kind of the equivalent of Hollywood (badly) remaking a grungy horror cult classic. It just doesn't work. Yeah I think that's an apt metaphor. Or basically it's the copy of a copy of a copy formula. Nightmare on Elm Street is a classic, but movie after movie and pretty soon we got Freddy playing Nintendo or turning into Wile. E. Coyote. Halloween is a classic but after several films we got him as a giant redneck who has illusions of Rob Zombie's wife on a white unicorn. ECW was really cool blending hardcore, great wrestling, and popular music and it got twisted into Boobby Lashley vs Big Show in a elimination chamber or Bully Ray vs Balls Mahoney in a lightsaber duel.
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Post by lildude8218 on Jul 9, 2020 1:52:07 GMT -5
The Rise and Fall of ECW made it seem like everything they did was perfect when there was A LOT of garbage. This is coming from someone who stayed up til 3am on Friday night to watch it every week on the Sunshine Network.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jul 9, 2020 2:18:17 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what you've written. The only part I'd argue with is the "for his own gain" part. As many faults as Heyman has as a human being and a businessman, it's not like he was getting rich off ECW. In fact, its the opposite. When the actual shows, sponsorships, PPVs, merch, etc. wasn't enough to pay the guys, he spent about $4 million of his family's own money trying to keep the company going. At times, even when infusing family cash like that, he still wasn't able to pay the guys, or all the bills, and that's why the company ultimately had to declare bankruptcy. It wasn't a successful business, in any sense. And the people who suffered the worst financially because of its existence were the Heyman family themselves. To me, someone who spends $4 million of their own money to give the guys a place to work isn't taking advantage of anybody. They're actually making one of the biggest sacrifices possible for the sake of the wrestling business by providing the guys with another place to work, and risking their family's savings to do so. Did the guys do a high risk style? Yes. By choice. If they didn't want to do that style, almost every other promotion out there did a less physical style. Any one of the wrestlers could have chosen to wrestle a safer style somewhere else, but they decided they wanted to be a part of the ECW team. Heyman was a terrible businessman. But he didn't do ECW for personal gain. He did it for a large personal loss. Heyman also bilked people out of money and played them for fools. He got Dreamer to put his parents' money into the company, and then turned down a 750k deal because Heyman gave him a big, sobbing show about how if he left ECW would go under. All while Heyman was collecting a WWE contract. Heyman is a con artist who played people and bilked them out of a lot, and it goes well past money in its most basic form. Lets not forget his wonderful habit of giving people backstage roles so they won't quit due to not being paid, then talking them into letting him borrow money. He ran up debts in Candido and Sunny's names that he had no intention of repaying which would cost them their house.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 2:58:49 GMT -5
Tommy Diaper.
You make one hell of a Tom Yum Noodle Casserole.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Jul 9, 2020 3:20:59 GMT -5
Having not really watched it during its original run, I got caught up in the hype after buying a few PPV DVDs and then the Rise & Fall DVD. I loved that documentary and watched it over and over.
Absolutely loved the first One Night Stand event, but I think it all lost its lustre after that. Bringing ECW back full time sounded great, but to be honest, it was a no win situation. If they'd gone full on 'extreme' it would have come across as desperate, cringey and it just would not have worked on a mainstream network.
MY fanfare for ECW lasted a couple of years, before I discovered a lot more international stuff, as well as more and more classic WCW, NWA.. even stuff from WWF circa 96-97, which overall, ECW just can't compare to.
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Ben Wyatt
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I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 9, 2020 7:02:21 GMT -5
Less the reunions, more trying to blow smoke up everyone's asses that ECW was more about Mysterio and Guerrero and less about bowling balls to the crotch and putting people on crosses. Yeaahhhh. I mean, don't get me wrong, there was some *great* wrestling by those guys and others, but the larger part of ECW was tables, kendo sticks, and 15 guys using DDTs and belly to belly suplexes. The real jarring thing for me is seeing Shane Douglas doing every ECW reunion show he could possibly get invited to. I could have one in my backyard and the dude would be there. The same guy who's infamous speech when he threw down the NWA title, mocked guys for hanging on to the corpse of a dead promotion
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Post by moonpies88 on Jul 9, 2020 8:12:07 GMT -5
The Rise and Fall of ECW made it seem like everything they did was perfect when there was A LOT of garbage. This is coming from someone who stayed up til 3am on Friday night to watch it every week on the Sunshine Network. You mean a WWE made documentary would lie?! why I never!
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Post by moonpies88 on Jul 9, 2020 8:17:47 GMT -5
I love ECW but after ONS it should have ended
poh well
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Post by timelimitdraw on Jul 9, 2020 8:48:16 GMT -5
I think the turning point was Shane Douglas' Extreme Reunion. That show was pretty much universally panned. Shane quickly pivoted to changing the promotion to Extreme Rising saying that was the long-term plan all along, but I have my doubts. At least Dreamer made HOH its own thing from the start, incorporating a bit of old ECW talent while having a lot new and name indy/Impact talent as well.
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