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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Oct 26, 2023 18:01:08 GMT -5
{Spoiler}Berman, Taylor, and co. really liked Robert Duncan McNeill from "The First Duty," and wanted to bring him back originally as Locarno for Voyager. But then decided that it was for the best not to because Locarno's actions were irredeemable in their eyes. They wanted someone who was tainted, but had room for growth and redemption. And that's how Tom Paris came about. McNeill himself commented on how the two characters were entirely different: "Locarno seemed like a nice guy, but deep down he was a bad guy. Tom Paris is an opposite premise in a way. Deep down he's a good guy. He's just made some mistakes." {Spoiler}Aye, but people are really attached to that theory. The Star Trek subreddit is full of people ready to declare Lower Decks non-canon (and already declaring, in some cases) because it has unequivocally confirmed Locarno and Paris are two separate characters. It's honestly mind-blowing seeing people get that bent out of shape over their headcanon.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Oct 26, 2023 18:36:27 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Well, I guess we can well and truly put to bed the (always flimsy) theory that Nick Locarno and Tom Paris are the same person.
And Thomas Riker survived the Dominion War. Good for him. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Berman, Taylor, and co. really liked Robert Duncan McNeill from "The First Duty," and wanted to bring him back originally as Locarno for Voyager. But then decided that it was for the best not to because Locarno's actions were irredeemable in their eyes. They wanted someone who was tainted, but had room for growth and redemption. And that's how Tom Paris came about. McNeill himself commented on how the two characters were entirely different: "Locarno seemed like a nice guy, but deep down he was a bad guy. Tom Paris is an opposite premise in a way. Deep down he's a good guy. He's just made some mistakes." {Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}Also they would have had to pay royalties to the writer of the First Duty for using the character of Locarno.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Oct 26, 2023 18:39:42 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Berman, Taylor, and co. really liked Robert Duncan McNeill from "The First Duty," and wanted to bring him back originally as Locarno for Voyager. But then decided that it was for the best not to because Locarno's actions were irredeemable in their eyes. They wanted someone who was tainted, but had room for growth and redemption. And that's how Tom Paris came about. McNeill himself commented on how the two characters were entirely different: "Locarno seemed like a nice guy, but deep down he was a bad guy. Tom Paris is an opposite premise in a way. Deep down he's a good guy. He's just made some mistakes." {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{SPOILER: CLICK TO SHOW}Also they would have had to pay royalties to the writer of the First Duty for using the character of Locarno. {Spoiler}That's a myth, it was a staff writer so no residuals would've been owed.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Oct 26, 2023 19:37:02 GMT -5
{Spoiler}That's a myth, it was a staff writer so no residuals would've been owed. {Spoiler}For what it's worth a number of former TNG/DS9/Voyager writers who occasionally post on TrekBBS side with the royalties argument, but point out that it would depend on the contracts Ronald D. Moore and Naren Shankar had with CBS as staff writers can and do receive "character created by" credits elsewhere. The WGA's guidelines also seem to back this up:
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Post by Cyno on Oct 26, 2023 21:09:36 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}That's a myth, it was a staff writer so no residuals would've been owed. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}{Spoiler}For what it's worth a number of former TNG/DS9/Voyager writers who occasionally post on TrekBBS side with the royalties argument, but point out that it would depend on the contracts Ronald D. Moore and Naren Shankar had with CBS as staff writers can and do receive "character created by" credits elsewhere. The WGA's guidelines also seem to back this up:
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}On the other hand, there are plenty of Trek characters from earlier series who ended up in later spin-offs. Not including characters from pilots off the top of my head: Sarek, Miles O'Brien and his family, the Duras sisters, Kor, Koloth, Kang, Boothby, etc. I don't remember any of them ever having been excluded because of royalties. Especially O'Brien since he was a main cast member of DS9. If they really wanted to use Locarno in Voyager, they would have. And while Ronald D. Moore and Shankar are credited as the writers for "The First Duty" that doesn't necessarily mean they created the character on their own either.
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Oct 26, 2023 21:39:37 GMT -5
{Spoiler}On the other hand, there are plenty of Trek characters from earlier series who ended up in later spin-offs. Not including characters from pilots off the top of my head: Sarek, Miles O'Brien and his family, the Duras sisters, Kor, Koloth, Kang, Boothby, etc. I don't remember any of them ever having been excluded because of royalties. Especially O'Brien since he was a main cast member of DS9. If they really wanted to use Locarno in Voyager, they would have. And while Ronald D. Moore and Shankar are credited as the writers for "The First Duty" that doesn't necessarily mean they created the character on their own either. {Spoiler}O'Brien is the only character on that list that became a series regular, and no one writer can really lay claim to creating him, as he's a composite from multiple writers – he started as a nameless Bridge extra, then a nameless transporter chief, then a transporter chief with a surname, then he got a first name, then a wife, then a backstory.
The main comparable situation is on Enterprise T'Pol was originally intended to be T'Pau, but re-using T'Pau would have been "prohibitively expensive" according to Rick Berman, as the estate of Theodore Sturgeon would have been owed residuals on every episode. But there's also a lot of factors that are likely to be different between the two situations, so it's unlikely to be a 1:1 comparison.
We'll probably never know the true story unless one, both, or all (if anybody went uncredited) of "The First Duty" spills the beans on the details of their contract.
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Post by eJm on Oct 31, 2023 15:22:42 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Having the entire driving force of the show's main character be due to the events of the original Lower Decks episode is an insane, wonderful detail. {Spoiler} It very much feels like something that would fit with what this show brings to the table in a show that knows it’s a Star Trek show and revels in all the details and craziness that comes from it.
I’m so curious about what the finale will bring because there’s so much potential for it to be a fan’s goldmine. Especially if Tom Paris does show up somehow.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Oct 31, 2023 17:32:45 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}On the other hand, there are plenty of Trek characters from earlier series who ended up in later spin-offs. Not including characters from pilots off the top of my head: Sarek, Miles O'Brien and his family, the Duras sisters, Kor, Koloth, Kang, Boothby, etc. I don't remember any of them ever having been excluded because of royalties. Especially O'Brien since he was a main cast member of DS9. If they really wanted to use Locarno in Voyager, they would have. And while Ronald D. Moore and Shankar are credited as the writers for "The First Duty" that doesn't necessarily mean they created the character on their own either. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}O'Brien is the only character on that list that became a series regular, and no one writer can really lay claim to creating him, as he's a composite from multiple writers – he started as a nameless Bridge extra, then a nameless transporter chief, then a transporter chief with a surname, then he got a first name, then a wife, then a backstory.
The main comparable situation is on Enterprise T'Pol was originally intended to be T'Pau, but re-using T'Pau would have been "prohibitively expensive" according to Rick Berman, as the estate of Theodore Sturgeon would have been owed residuals on every episode. But there's also a lot of factors that are likely to be different between the two situations, so it's unlikely to be a 1:1 comparison.
We'll probably never know the true story unless one, both, or all (if anybody went uncredited) of "The First Duty" spills the beans on the details of their contract. Dont forget his short stint in security between bridge and transporter room.
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Post by eJm on Nov 3, 2023 14:46:34 GMT -5
What a really fun finale, the dynamics of Season 5 will be quite interesting. {Spoiler}You have no idea how much I marked when Rutherford and Livic bonded over Twaining. So so happy that came back.
But Tendi is now back with Orions and T’Lyn will probably get a bigger role in Season 5 so I’m curious to see where it all goes.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Nov 3, 2023 15:30:26 GMT -5
{Spoiler}"He looks just like Tom Paris!"
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Post by eJm on Nov 3, 2023 15:32:41 GMT -5
{Spoiler}{Spoiler}"He looks just like Tom Paris!" {Spoiler}”I don’t see it”
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Nov 3, 2023 20:59:50 GMT -5
What a really fun finale, the dynamics of Season 5 will be quite interesting. {Spoiler}You have no idea how much I marked when Rutherford and Livic bonded over Twaining. So so happy that came back.
But Tendi is now back with Orions and T’Lyn will probably get a bigger role in Season 5 so I’m curious to see where it all goes. {Spoiler}And I love that it was T'Lyn that suggested the Twaining, proving once again what a perfect fit she is with this crew.
The character development of her, Mariner, Boimler, and Tendi over the course of the season has been great. Mariner's faced her demons and seems more comfortable with the idea of becoming more of a leader, while Boimler got to be the captain for a little while and excelled. We've dipped into Tendi's background and will get a deep dive next season, and T'Lyn has learned to embrace the chaos.
Rutherford's arc was a bit weak, as he's still pretty much the same as when the season started. But he made peace with Badgey, so I suppose that's something.
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Post by eJm on Nov 3, 2023 21:10:15 GMT -5
What a really fun finale, the dynamics of Season 5 will be quite interesting. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}You have no idea how much I marked when Rutherford and Livic bonded over Twaining. So so happy that came back.
But Tendi is now back with Orions and T’Lyn will probably get a bigger role in Season 5 so I’m curious to see where it all goes. {Spoiler}{Spoiler}And I love that it was T'Lyn that suggested the Twaining, proving once again what a perfect fit she is with this crew.
The character development of her, Mariner, Boimler, and Tendi over the course of the season has been great. Mariner's faced her demons and seems more comfortable with the idea of becoming more of a leader, while Boimler got to be the captain for a little while and excelled. We've dipped into Tendi's background and will get a deep dive next season, and T'Lyn has learned to embrace the chaos.
Rutherford's arc was a bit weak, as he's still pretty much the same as when the season started. But he made peace with Badgey, so I suppose that's something. {Spoiler}That was a nice touch too. T’Lyn was almost an MVP of the season for how much she’d added and like I said, I hope she gets more screen time.
I will say, Rutherford’s arc was a big part of last season, especially one that almost lead to the destruction of Starfleet via rogue AI, so I can forgive him not having a lot to do except having his own Dingleberg moment. I think they teased him having a crush on Tendi (and I stretch the definition of tease considering) so being away from his work buddy for a substantial period of time should give him more to go for.
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Post by eJm on Dec 20, 2023 11:26:21 GMT -5
NOT A DRILL, PEOPLE! NOT A DRILL!
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Post by Mighty Attack Tribble on Apr 12, 2024 14:57:16 GMT -5
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Apr 12, 2024 16:04:37 GMT -5
Goddammit.
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Post by eJm on Apr 12, 2024 16:28:56 GMT -5
What he said. And also bolded.
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Burst
El Dandy
*inarticulate squawking*
Posts: 8,598
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Post by Burst on Apr 12, 2024 17:26:33 GMT -5
Blah, but I'm cautiously optimistic because:
A. I'd rather them know reasonably in advance and get to wrap things up properly, B. Five seasons is still a good run and I think people *still* unfairly hold things up to the standard of TNG/DS9/VOY having 7 seasons when TNG was very obviously running out of steam and VOY probably would've been better served with modern story arc planning vs stretching out to fill a syndication quota. C. Speaking of story arcs, I feel like the individual character arcs have been moving along at a reasonable pace so far, and... D. The main cast is clearly being set up to all graduate from being lower deckers, so to speak, and there's not necessarily anything stopping them from having a continuation show that's just not called "Lower Decks".
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Post by Cyno on Apr 12, 2024 20:01:40 GMT -5
Five seasons is a really good run in Streamingland. And they have plenty of time to give Lower Decks a proper send off as opposed to being abruptly canceled like Prodigy or (insert Max or Netflix entity here).
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Post by eJm on Apr 12, 2024 23:41:00 GMT -5
Five seasons is a really good run in Streamingland. And they have plenty of time to give Lower Decks a proper send off as opposed to being abruptly canceled like Prodigy or (insert Max or Netflix entity here). Five seasons for an animated show is great in streamingland. Especially one that didn’t need to make a bunch of episodes and split them to count as “more seasons”.
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